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The Star Wars Episode 9 speculation and things you want to see thread (TLJ spoilers)


229 replies to this topic

#176
ShadowDog

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Yeah just to clarify I meant survive. To me it's obvious that there's no way he ever gets redeemed.
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#177
pavonis

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But would Kylo ever take Hux seriously enough to bother removing him?  My guess is that Kylo, like Snoke before him, just sees Hux as a lap dog, no threat to anyone.  I really like the irony of Hux growing a back bone and having an uncharacteristic act of defiance at the most inconvenient time, and the entire First Order suffers for it.  Either way, I'd be willing to bet that the Hux-Kylo rivalry is going to amount to something big.

 

Sure. Hux has control of the military. Whether Hux is competent or not isn't the issue, it's whether Hux could get enough officers to support him against Kylo to be dangerous. Why wait for him to become an active threat, when Kylo can just kill him and take charge directly? Not that Kylo would seem to be all that competent as a military commander himself (how many turbolasers does it take to kill a Jedi master anyway?) 

 

If Vader might do it, I think we can bet that Kylo would try it, but not be as good at it. 



#178
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I tossed out the imprisoned theory a few pages ago stranded on a planet. Rey occasionally visits him to talk Hannibal Lecter style.

Part of me thought during the PT that Yoda on Dagobah was a punishment not self imposed exile.

#179
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I still love the idea of the Redemption comics - dark side user is stripped of the Force by his former friend and lover, then goes off some planet to live out the rest of his days, later on the friend's daughter seeks him out for training. Obviously this idea would need to be adjusted for Kylo, but I can think of no better punishment than Kylo Ren/Ben Solo having to live without the Force. If they can figure out how to do man-made Force connections, they can do this. 



#180
pavonis

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How does one get stripped of the force? Do they get their midi chlorians removed?

#181
Mara Jade Skywalker

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*shrug* They didn't explain it. This comic came out before midi-chlorians, thank god. But like I said, it doesn't matter how they do it. We have no idea how Snoke bridged Kylo and Rey's minds, and that worked in the movie. 



#182
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I wasn't looking for a technobabble (magical-babble?) explanation. Snoke used the force to bridge Kylo's and Rey's minds. That's sufficient. Luke closed himself off from the force - that was a deliberate choice. We've never seen anyone punished by removing their force abilities, though. I acknowledge that all force abilities are pretty much at the writers' discretion, so if that's what ends up happening, then it's clearly possible for it to be done. Since there is a biological basis for force sensitivity, though, that approach to "stripping" Kylo of his abilities would seem to require at least a mention of the midi-chlorians.  



#183
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The Force has enough connections to psychic phenomena-- there's plenty of scifi stories where powerful psychics get their abilities burned from their minds by other like them.

It would be more poignant if the force turned it's back on Kylo. Like he fails so hard, the dark side is done with him. Or, something happens to him emotionally that he can't go to the dark place anymore, but at the same time his guilt keeps him from the light.
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#184
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It would be more poignant if the force turned it's back on Kylo. Like he fails so hard, the dark side is done with him. Or, something happens to him emotionally that he can't go to the dark place anymore, but at the same time his guilt keeps him from the light.

I like this. 



#185
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Plus, he didn't have any problem ordering the entire Resistance slaughtered on the transports or on Crait, and Leia was there. I have a hard time believing Kylo didn't know his mother survived the attack on the Raddus

All that shows is he is willing to kill his mother, but is too chicken s*** to pull the trigger himself.  



#186
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I still love the idea of the Redemption comics - dark side user is stripped of the Force by his former friend and lover, then goes off some planet to live out the rest of his days, later on the friend's daughter seeks him out for training. Obviously this idea would need to be adjusted for Kylo, but I can think of no better punishment than Kylo Ren/Ben Solo having to live without the Force. If they can figure out how to do man-made Force connections, they can do this. 

Are you talking about Ulic Qel Droma and Nomi Sunrider?



#187
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Yup!



#188
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I have a hard time believing Kylo didn't know his mother survived the attack on the Raddus

I can believe it. Kylo couldn't even tell Luke was a projection on Crait. 



#189
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He sensed Han on Starkiller Base. Leia can't mask/project her presence like Luke can.

#190
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I tossed out the imprisoned theory a few pages ago stranded on a planet. Rey occasionally visits him to talk Hannibal Lecter style.


Sounds like Xavier-Magneto in the first X-Men movie too.

I like the idea of the Force abandoning him, but I don't see anything in TLJ that's leading to that in any way.

#191
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I still love the idea of the Redemption comics - dark side user is stripped of the Force by his former friend and lover, then goes off some planet to live out the rest of his days, later on the friend's daughter seeks him out for training. Obviously this idea would need to be adjusted for Kylo, but I can think of no better punishment than Kylo Ren/Ben Solo having to live without the Force. If they can figure out how to do man-made Force connections, they can do this. 

Are you talking about Ulic Qel Droma and Nomi Sunrider?

 

 

 

 

The old republic/tales of the jedi comics were awesome, and I really loved the Exar Kun, Qel Droma, & Sunrider story arcs.  For me, by far, my favorite EU.  Which is why I went nuts over the KOTOR games because they draw on those events for a lot of their story line.  

Yup!

 


#192
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I don’t want to see Kylo redeemed because Yoda and Obi-Wan were both pretty adamant in the OT that Vader was beyond redemption, that once the dark side has you, it never lets you go.  Yoda said something like “Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny.”  We were made to believe that Anakin coming back from the dark side was something unprecedented. If the act was believed to be impossible by someone as wise as Yoda, there must have been a good reason for that.  If SW begins making a habit of having villains (especially psychos like Kylo) renounce the dark side, it would make Vader’s turn in ROTJ appear less special and would also make Yoda and Obi-Wan look like idiots for not believing that Vader could be saved.


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#193
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That's probably the most convincing argument I've seen for why he shouldn't be redeemed actually. I can tell I'm in the minority here that I think and want to his redemption to happen, but could live with that outcome. 

 

But one of the reason I'd like to see him redeemed and survive is to see him grapple with the wrongs of what he has done - something we never got with Anakin/Vader. Either way, at the end of Force Awakens I was desperate to see what happened to Rey next. After Last Jedi, I can't wait to see where they take Kylo, redemption or not. 



#194
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Take a look in Hux's eyes when Starkiller Base fires in the Republic. Rewatch that speech he gives. I think Hux sees Ren as a detriment to the First Order. I see Hux turning the First Order on Ren.

 

Yeah, I think this is likely to happen. . .Hux may be arrogant and come across as a bit of a twit, but in retrospect he has been responsible for the First Order's biggest attacks - it was his idea to fire Starkiller Base on the Republic and from what I gathered from TLJ, it was also the plan he set in motion to track the Resistance fleet. . .he has effectively wiped out the Republic and if Kylo didn't throw his tantrum at the Luke projection, he probably would have wiped out the Resistance. I can see him using that to convince the FO to mutiny against Kylo. Whether he survives that or not though. . .



#195
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I definitely don't want a redemption arc for Kylo.

We've seen the redemption arc and it was masterfully executed in the OT. Anything like a redemption for Kylo is gonna feel trite and a throwback to Vader.

Part of what makes Kylo compelling is his unrelenting dedication towards dark side mastery and power. In spite of his temptation to the light he is resolute in his commitment, like Snoke said. UNLIKE Vader who on the outside was a terrible visage of darkside warrior prowess, on the inside he was just a sad old man who had just resigned himself to his fate. He was defeated and his spirit crushed into servitude by the emperor. Luke redeemed Vader by reminding him of who he really was. Gave him the spark to find himself and the strength to fight back.. Even if it was too late. KYLO on the other hand actively pursues the dark and power and strength. Family, compassion, ethics are things to be crushed and eliminated in that pursuit. To try and redeem such a character is futile, illogical and a total waste of story.

The only thing I can think of that makes me hesitate is his attraction to Rey. He's still just a man at the end of the day...

But I don't think that attraction is enough to turn him to the light.
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#196
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I think I'm the only one who has never seen Ren's "pull to the light". Sure he says it, but what has he done to make me think he's wavering. I've seen some say his outbursts are conflict. To me they come off as petulance.

#197
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I don't see it, either, which is why I dislike the idea of a redemption. ESPECIALLY because of Rey. Please, don't use the old "woman fixes man" trope. Kylo can fix his damn self.
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#198
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Killing your Dad.  Irredeemable.

Killing Han Solo.  Irredeemable.

Killing your Dad who happens to be Han Solo.  Not only irredeemable, but you had better not even consider going anywhere near there. 


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#199
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Yeah, it's no like Anakin choking his wife and killing a bunch of unnamed kids AFTER we've already seen the side of the story with him as a villain. The fact they had Kylo kill on of the original big 3 kinda says there's no going back.

#200
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Part of what makes Kylo compelling is his unrelenting dedication towards dark side mastery and power. In spite of his temptation to the light he is resolute in his commitment, like Snoke said. UNLIKE Vader who on the outside was a terrible visage of darkside warrior prowess, on the inside he was just a sad old man who had just resigned himself to his fate. He was defeated and his spirit crushed into servitude by the emperor. Luke redeemed Vader by reminding him of who he really was. Gave him the spark to find himself and the strength to fight back.. Even if it was too late. KYLO on the other hand actively pursues the dark and power and strength. Family, compassion, ethics are things to be crushed and eliminated in that pursuit. To try and redeem such a character is futile, illogical and a total waste of story. 

 

Great point.  Couldn't agree more.  At the beginning of ROTS, Anakin, despite his issues, had no ambitions of becoming a sith, overthrowing the chancellor, ruling the galaxy, etc.  He had no idea what he was going to become by the end of that film, and would have no doubt been very freaked out if he had been able to peek ahead at his future and see the choices he makes in those moments of weakness and desperation.  Kylo, on the other hand, actually desires to become a monster.  There's no redeeming that.  That's why I don't get it when people say they wanted to see an Anakin in the prequels more like Kylo Ren.
 





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