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The I've Seen The Last Jedi Thread (spoilers OBV)


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Dislikes

  • did anyone else think of Padme and Anakin on Mustafar when Kylo suggested to Rey that they screw everything and rule the galaxy together? I feel like we've seen all this before. I get that SW is supposed to have recurrent themes, but couldn't these movies be less blatant about it?

 

I forgot about that. I was thinking Vader and Luke, but it's the same thing.

 

I want to know how Kylo Ren's hand was wet after he was force communicating with Rey. Is it possible to create physical objects by using the Force since the Force is energy? Why was Kylo's hand wet? How was Leia holding the dice from the Falcon? Did she know Luke wasn't really there? Did anyone know until Luke finally disappeared?

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Star Wars - Episode 8: The Last Jedi Good: Rey: Despite referring to Rey as a Mary-Sue in TFA, I found isolating her from the producer's politicized string-pulling leaves a stronger character. Ridley

Best line of the film...   "Do you think you got him?" —General Hux

What are you talking about? Jedi Cool has been recapping every Eu book ever in history one post at a time.

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My thoughts will filter in the more I process.

 

Overall I thought it was a mixed bag. I liked the beginning, and the ending. The middle was the same three beats over and over:

 

1. "Train me!" -- "No!"

2. "We have to find that code-breaker!"

3. "We have to get away and buy Finn time!"

 

Literally 2 hours of hitting these beats without any true complication. Sure, you can get captured, Luke can keep saying no, ships can get blown up-- but at the end of the day, these beats could have had the same resolution, with the same impact, in half of the time. I was literally bored for a solid hour in the middle.

 

I loved the Luke/Rey stuff, but sadly, everything around it was straight up filler on-par with Obi-Wan chasing Grevious for an entire movie cause Lucas didn't know what to do with him until the final duel with Anakin. This is my big complaint-- there was a story for Rey and Luke, but everyone else was just doing filler stuff.

 

The entire Canto Bight sequence was utterly pointless. It felt like the PT to be honest. Sure, Star Wars is full of long ass missions-- but they generally carry something. All that time on Endor waiting to attack the generator was filled with character stuff between Han, Luke and Leia. Rose's backstory wasn't exactly heavy.

 

I also think the set up of the slowest space chase ever is ridiculous. So Finn and Rose can leave, come back, and Chewie can drop off Rey with precision, but the First Order can't have a couple ships hyperspace in front of the Rebel Fleet to cut them off? I get sublight is slower, but it was ridiculous to say the First Order couldn't catch up, cut off, or otherwise stop the Rebel Fleet. I couldn't get past it, and given that everything but the Rey/Luke stuff was based on this flimsy plot point, a huge chunk of the movie was just dumb to me.

 

Then you add in the fact that most of the smaller beats in the second act are basically cleaning up the plot danglers from TFA. This actually made TFA a little worse in my mind. I still think TFA wins on getting back the FEEL in a post PT world, but JJ's sty;e of making mysteries with no intention of solving them up (why I hated Lost) was a disservice to TLJ. This movie HAD to answer questions, and in doing so, got in the way of its own story.

 

On top of that, they didn't touch on one of the biggest danglers-- where did Snoke come from? I think more was made of it than needed, but at the same time, if Force-users were down to Luke at the end of ROTJ, and now we have a guy easily as powerful as the Emperor, where did he come from? I'm fine with him getting killed off-- but even that felt like Rian saying "Ugh, I need to get rid of this poor Palpatine knock-off). Now that he's dead we'll unlikely get no answers... it'll probably be the topic of some terrible book I won't read.

 

Not to be a total grump-- I did like stuff. I personally loved the Kylo/Rey team up fight. I liked everything about Luke. I like Rey being a nobody that the light side willed into power to balance out Kylo. I thought Leia was great after seeming awkward in TFA. The final battle was cool. I liked Luke and Kylo's facedown, (though Kylo should have known it wasn't real considering Luke had his old lightsaber that Kylo had seen destroyed a few scenes previous), Hux continues to be the best scene-chewer ever, I think the humor was great and felt very OT, unlike the super awkward not-funny attempts in the PT. The whole "I'm holding for Hux" sequence killed. I thought the odd close-ups given to "evil BB8" were really funny-- like he was the true villain. I liked Rey flirting with the dark, and moving past it like a good Jedi should. I even liked Yoda-- though I wish'd they used a puppet.

 

I'm sure more will come to me...

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Everything in the ST still feels too familiar, with things from previous movies just being rehashed. It seems very "retro." Palpatine is called Snoke now. The Empire is called the First Order. The rebellion is called the resistance. All they did was change a bunch names, but beyond the name changes, much of the setup is exactly what it was in OT. We have a character who is conflicted inside, and another character thinking she can save him. We practically had another thrown room scene, and did anyone else think of Padme and Anakin on Mustafar when Kylo suggested to Rey that they screw everything and rule the galaxy together? I feel like we've seen all this before. I get that SW is supposed to have recurrent themes, but couldn't these movies be less blatant about it?

I was wrestling with this a lot, having accepted that some of the nostalgia and recycling and the extent of Han's role in TFA was (commercially) necessary and hoping that TLJ would have less of it, but it didn't. Although I imagined a scene where Kylo told Luke to "tell your sister, she was wrong about me", I still think it would have been the wrong thing to do. It now seems inevitable that the entire ST is going to be a transitioning exercise.

 

There's also a self-aware and self-reverential and bedtime-story (and at one point, Laura Dern's character almost broke the fourth wall) tone issue that I'm struggling to describe, so I'm just throwing words at it until someone else tells me I've got the right ones.

 

But I should go to bed. I'm just thinking out loud and it's 2 am here.

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I think you got it. Like I keep saying, TFA won on getting back the FEEL of Star Wars. A lot of that comes from using familiar imagery and iconography along with archetypes and story beats.

 

I think they could have found a way to do that though, but still give the First Order a more unique thing.

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I even liked Yoda-- though I wish'd they used a puppet.

 

 

 

That wasn't a puppet Yoda? There was no doubt in my mind that they did indeed use a puppet for that. I thought Yoda looked great, save for the very first reveal of his face. I dunno if it was the lighting or what, but he looked very plasticy and toy like on the first shot, though all the closer shots were fine.

 

 

I have a lot of thoughts on this but one that I think would have helped, if Laura Derns character had maybe told her plan of holding out just long enough to make it to Crait. Maybe during the "chase" , Leia and co look at the closest systems and see that in the distance was Crait, an old rebel base. "It's a little far but I think we can make it there"

 

They could have used the remaining fuel to then hyperspace jump there. (OR hyperspace jump all 3 ships to 3 different locations, but that is a whole other thing.) Knowing the First Order would track them, they could try to get onto the planet quickly and set up a final fight there. Instead of losing most of their crew to pointless space fire, they could have put all their power into a last stand and gotten a more substantial battle there until Luke shows up to turn the tide briefly.

 

I think this would have eliminated a lot of the slow busy work and very dull Canto Bight sequence and turned it instead into a battle with more chances for our characters to act in meaningful ways.

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Ok, just got back from a 2nd viewing and have to say I'm all in on it now. It's great. I'll try not to ramble but I will:

 

The evacuation was great, the humor right at the start was a little odd. I love humor in the movies but starting the movie basically with a bit was kinda odd. However the rest of that battle was awesome. Made you care about Rose's sister immediately. That was great. Set up Poe's story about learning what real leadership is by his mission of the dreadnaught. Yeah they took it down but lost several ships of their own and a ship to them is worth alot more than a ship to The First Order. They can't win a war of attrition.

 

Then ofcourse on to Luke and Rey. I don't think Luke's refusal to train her went on too long. I mean if one scene he says no and the next he is like "yeah, sounds good" then there is no point to his refusal in the first place. It's not an easy balance but if he doesn't refuse enough then who cares, if he refuses too much then it gets repetitive. I think they did a good job though by having Luke slowly come to the realization that Rey is there to learn the ways of the Force. Remember at first he isn't refusing to train her, he is refusing to join the Resistance. He finds out she is stong with the Force and I don't think it's too long before R2 plays him Leia and he decides to train her.

 

On to Finn and Rose's mission, it's completely not a waste of time or repetitive. It plays into Poe assuming the leadership role. He is the one who sanctions the mission and it completely blows up in their face. Not only does it not work but it leads to the First Order finding out about Holdo's escape plan which actually could have worked. Its a complete and utter failure. Everything the Resistance does is a complete and utter failure, usually due to Poe.

 

Then the Rey, Kylo and Snoke stuff was great. Just great stuff. And not just because it's exactly what I thought would happen from the very first time I saw TFA. I thought it was great and although I never thought Rey would permanently turn bad or Kylo good I did think there was a chance they could work together for a bit longer. Either way that sequence was great. Rey slowly realizing that Ren hasn;t turned but only seized power for himself was tremendous.

 

You get to the climax with Luke and it's just so surprising the way he did it. I can't decide if I liked it more than just having Luke come back and get killed by Kylo but basically it's how I thought Lukes story would go. I figured he would refuse to train Rey, something gets him to train her, he trains her, they fall out, Rey leaves, something gets Luke to go back himself, he faces Kylo and is killed. What actually happens is virtually no different from that.

 

As for a few over reaching thoughts, I love Rey being a nobody. I said after TFA I hope she is a nobody who wasn't even born with The Force but was granted it later at a time of need because of all her positive qualities. Now we didn't quite get that, but close enough. The idea that anyone can have the Force is so great, takes the science out of it and makes it magic again. Love it, love it, love it and it's only reinforced by the final scene.

 

Also love Poe's story. He clearly wasnt part of a "big 3" in TFA but he is now. He is a disaster in this movie. He loses tons of people and ships in some vanity mission to destroy a ship the First Order probably has 20 of. He sanctioned the mission which lead to the First Order finding out about their possible escape, he mutinied against an officer who was actually doing a good job. However he did learn from it all, by the end he's telling others to pull back, he realizes that Luke doesnt want them rushing out like heroes, he wants them to survive. It was a hard lesson to learn and one that has lead to the near end of the Resistance but he did learn it.

 

Finn was great too, in TFA even when he decides to go back to Starkiller Base it's not because he gives a damn about the Resistance it's simply to save Rey. It was great to see him get galvanized in his beliefs against his former employer. Seeing these people lviing in luxury and profiting from the suffering of everyone galvanized him for the Resistance, to the point where he was willing to die for it.

 

Rey starts the movie wanting Luke to come save them. During the movie she wants Kylo to turn back to good and be the hero. By the end she knows its her. She has the Jedi texts, she can do this and she has to.

 

Kylo went exactly as I thought he would go basically. Loved him taking total control of it all. Always thought he would.

 

Luke ya know what can ya say. I get people saying "Luke resisted the dark side in ROTJ so why would it be a problem for him with Ben." Ya know people aren't perfect, he had a moment of weakness. He says it was a flash of instinct and then he was left with the shame. I have zero issue with it.

 

I also just loved the desperation of the Resistance. How everythng they do goes wrong, mostly thanks to Poe. Going to lightspeed is usually a get out of jail free card in Star Wars but not here. That was great. Nowhere to hide. Love how no less than 3 characters were willing to die to help the Resistance. Loved just how bad of a shape they are in. The whole damn Resistance is on the Falcon at the end. They truly have lost. They aren't anything any more.

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I also kinda think the issue people have with Finn/Rose or other stuff that isn't the #1 storyline on a first viewing is this: We've all been on this site and elsewhere speculating about Rey, Kylo, Luke for 2 years. We are dying to see how that plays out. No one went to the movie thinking "Who cares about Rey, I want to see Finn on Canto Bight!". But that doesn't lessen the need for a storyline outside of that main storyline. Thing is though that on a first viewing we are like "Ive been waiting 2 years to see what happens with Rey, Kylo, Luke and now I;m an hour away and Im watching Finn steal a horse!" You just want to get to the big stuff, so you can't enjoy the other stuff. Im not saying that the stuff on Canto Bight is the best stuff in the saga but when you arent dying to see other stuff and just enjoy the movie as it goes it's certainly fun to watch and goes by alot faster than on a first viewing.

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If it worked for you, awesome. Im glad it did. It was just hollow and boring for me.

 

Also, two days before this movie Finn needed a pilot to escape, now he can pilot a sand skimmer?

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There is no god damn way Luke would think about murdering the son of his twin sister and best friend in his sleep. This is the man who redeemed his father who was the most notoriously evil person in the galaxy, killed countless people, and whom had no real familial relationship with. Fighting Vader and the Empire was Luke's reason for becoming a Jedi in the first place, but he put that aside when he realized there was a chance to save Vader. Ben was just a boy, his god damn nephew. Luke is not the type to instinctively murder someone, I don't care how many years have passed. He would never do that...because he's a jedi, not a c**t.

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All the Canto Bight scenes stopped the movie dead in its tracks for me. Rey, Luke, and Kylo drove the whole story for me, and every time they cut away from that, I found my mind wandering. It kinda felt like that whole subplot was there just to make the movie longer and give those secondary characters something to do. That's just my initial impression. Maybe it'll grow on me on future viewings.





Luke ya know what can ya say. I get people saying "Luke resisted the dark side in ROTJ so why would it be a problem for him with Ben." Ya know people aren't perfect, he had a moment of weakness. He says it was a flash of instinct and then he was left with the shame. I have zero issue with it.





I can agree with that. What gets me, though, is why Luke was so reluctant to believe that Ben could be saved. Luke had already rescued someone from the dark side, despite assurances from others that it couldn't be done. But with Ben, he refused to even consider the possibility. Why?


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Im pretty spoiled because I dont know when Ill actually get to see it, so someone tell me: is it true theres no bad feeling about this line? Cuz if so Im actually more upset about it than I know I should be.

BB-8 says it. :D

Now Im even more mad. What a cop out.

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Im pretty spoiled because I dont know when Ill actually get to see it, so someone tell me: is it true theres no bad feeling about this line? Cuz if so Im actually more upset about it than I know I should be.

BB-8 says it. :D

Now Im even more mad. What a cop out.

 

No, Bruce Willis wasn't in this.

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What worked really well for me:

 

Poe's character this time around. He had a real great leadership arc thing going on.

Hux's character this time around. He was funny! Wise direction there. "You think you got'em?"

Mark Hamill as Luke. I had no idea this guy had that kind of acting talent in him.

Luke as a crazy hermit. Very ESB Yoda-like in all the right ways. Speaking of which...

Yoda! My little green friend. I love that little rascal. Stole the show.

Luke's...little trick? Whatever you wanna call it. Great send off at the end too.

Admiral Laura Dern. What an awesome moment she had. Her and Poe totally banged.

The porgs (surprisingly). Especially with Chewie.

Kylo Ren's character again is great. Adam Driver slays it again.

Artoo-help me ObiWan Kenobi. Great callback with a purpose that didn't feel forced.

New force powers! Expanded mythos of the force.

Daisy Ridley was great again. I LOVE the little sexy thing going on between Kylo and Rey. Bastilla/Revan force bond is working for me.

Rey's "Mary Sue-ness" was dialed back.

 

What didn't work for me:

 

Snokes character was ass. All that mystery built up for nothing.

Phasma's character was ass. Again. Gave Finn a nice little character arc thing, I guess.

Finn and Rose romance thing. It's probably SUPPOSED to be one-sided...but I'm just not feeling it.

Rose's character in general. Not a fan.

Leia Skywalker scene. What is she...the wicked witch of the west? It's cool ton see her use the force but not like that.

Uncle Luke McStabbypants. No way. My brain rejects this.

I liked Finn in TFA, but he kind of annoyed me this time.

Rose and Finn's entire story thread was boring and the casino stuff was dumb. It held back the movie and was ultimately pointless.

A strange anti-animal cruelty message thingy going on felt out place. Especially when Chewie was cooking up a porg earlier on. It was almost like Rian Johnson felt guilty for that scene and was trying to make amends.

Benicio Del Toro. "what? Gimme the gun ya coksucka what da fuuuuuuk". Not something I'd usually suspect.

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What gets me, though, is why Luke was so reluctant to believe that Ben could be saved. Luke had already rescued someone from the dark side, despite assurances from others that it couldn't be done. But with Ben, he refused to even consider the possibility. Why?

There is no god damn way Luke would think about murdering the son of his twin sister and best friend in his sleep. This is the man who redeemed his father who was the most notoriously evil person in the galaxy, killed countless people, and whom had no real familial relationship with. Fighting Vader and the Empire was Luke's reason for becoming a Jedi in the first place, but he put that aside when he realized there was a chance to save Vader. Ben was just a boy, his god damn nephew. Luke is not the type to instinctively murder someone, I don't care how many years have passed. He would never do that...because he's a jedi, not a c**t.

I think you guys are overlooking something-- he wasn't wrong about Kylo Ben. He ignighted the saber, and regretted it, but he wasn't wrong. Kylo kills Han and joins the first order. He looked into him and saw something darker and more irredeemable than Vader, and knew he was the only one that could do something about it.

 

Don't confuse Rey saying there's conflict in him-- conflict, yes, but not enough for there to be hope. That was made clear in the end that Kylo is beyond saving, and that Rey was basically too idealistic and in need of help to see that.

 

Luke knew he had to kill Kylo, but also couldn't bring himself to do it.

 

It's not out of character at all for Luke. Just because he says he had a moment of fear don't assume the validity of that. He's saying that out of guilt. Seeing what Kylo does, Luke's instincts were not wrong. And the heart you're saying he has that would keep him from turning the saber on, is what made him pull back.

 

I guess if you read a bunch of poopy books that say Luke is a family man and all-powerful do no wrong genius who even after losing apprentices plugs along, I can see how this version of Luke might be a hard pill to swallow. But it terms of the mythic storytelling style of Star Wars, not some YA novel, Luke in TLJ makes sense.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Im pretty spoiled because I dont know when Ill actually get to see it, so someone tell me: is it true theres no bad feeling about this line? Cuz if so Im actually more upset about it than I know I should be.

BB-8 says it. :D

 

Now Im even more mad. What a cop out.

 

I said it about an hour and a half in when I realized the plot we were sitting on was the actual movie and not a set up for some new unexpectred direction.

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New thought...

 

On the topic of Kylo Ben's betrayal...

 

TFA made it seems as though he came back as Kylo Ren, with the other Knights of Ren, and killed off the other Jedi students. But TLJ makes it seems as though he flipped and left after he thought Luke was going to kill him, where he was still very much Ben, and not Kylo.

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I think you guys are overlooking something-- he wasn't wrong about Kylo Ben. He ignighted the saber, and regretted it, but he wasn't wrong. Kylo kills Han and joins the first order. He looked into him and saw something darker and more irredeemable than Vader, and knew he was the only one that could do something about it.

Yes he was wrong. That's the whole point of Luke's failure. Kylo does these things AFTER the kid wakes up with his Uncle, Jedi Master Luke all ready to kill him. He drove Kylo to the darkside. Luke was the root cause. I'm sorry, but if you're thinking about killing a kid, your nephew in his sleep, you're a horrible Jedi, a despicable uncle, and a terrible human being. Forget about meditating or working with him...let's just kill the little bastard. Luke's character deserves better than that. My point was RJ could have found another way of accomplishing the same goals without resorting to child murder and taking a giant dump on Luke's character.

 

Since I don't read EU I can't relate to your point there, and I never considered Jedi to be good family people. The movies show them to be quite the opposite, philosophically. Except Yoda. He'd be the best grandpa ever.

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I just don't agree with that. If that's all it took to make him go down the path to MURDERING HIS OWN FATHER then something else would have pushed him to it. We as a society don't let murderers off the hook because they were constantly abused as children, a far worse offense than what Luke did.

 

What nobody is mentioning is that Snoke had already twisted Ben's mind. You're acting like if Luke hadn't ignited the lightsaber Snoke would have given up. No, The Incident was Ben's convenient excuse for anything he did wrong thereafter.

 

Luke refusing to kill Ben resulted in thousands, if not millions, of deaths.

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The last time a Skywalker murdered a child he became Darth Vader and resulted in thousands, if not millions of deaths.

 

Murder bad. Diplomacy good. If that confrontation ends in the same result, as in kylo still goes bananas, at least you could say you tried to do the right thing instead of being an a55hole, and are justified in taking him down.

 

Plus I'm generally not a huge fan of child murder in my movies. Although I have been known to make exceptions.

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