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The I've Seen The Last Jedi Thread (spoilers OBV)


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Star Wars - Episode 8: The Last Jedi Good: Rey: Despite referring to Rey as a Mary-Sue in TFA, I found isolating her from the producer's politicized string-pulling leaves a stronger character. Ridley

Best line of the film...   "Do you think you got him?" —General Hux

What are you talking about? Jedi Cool has been recapping every Eu book ever in history one post at a time.

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Dude, Leia is displayed as having the force. She has a cane. Shes wise and not impulsive. She survives and is placed with Rey. Carries role was apparently going to be big in the next film, all signs for the next film pointed to her being the living master while Luke is the Ghost advisor. But of course then Carrie died, so...

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Star Wars - Episode 8: The Last Jedi

Good:
Rey: Despite referring to Rey as a Mary-Sue in TFA, I found isolating her from the producer's politicized string-pulling leaves a stronger character. Ridley creates a heroine that really deserves a better film that would take full advantage of her being a lost soul tossed in the middle of situations beyond her comprehension. Rey being nothing more than the kid of a couple of winos was a wise plot choice, as it forces Rey to step out of the "secret heroine" shadow and finally create her own life and identity. Frankly, I was pleased her origin finally crushed the "Rey is a Skywlaker!" / "Rey is the granddaughter of Kenobi or Sidious" theories, which a certain segment of the fanbase seemed to have created as a means of wish fulfillment / protecting Rey from criticism by attaching her to famous SW bloodlines.
With only one film left in the ST, Rey is not going to get the kind of development required to make what we've come to know as great SW heroes (Luke, Obi-Wan, et al) and that--along with the loss of the Finn relationship (more on that later) robs this series of its only assets.
Ridley--and her Rey--deserved better.
Carrie Fisher: Honestly, she did not look well; her voice was horrible, and she seemed to lack energy in every scene, so it was difficult to just brush aside the real world issues in favor of just focusing on her signature role one last time. Still, she did manage to slip into the role of a leader very aware of her age, which lent a feeling of insecurity to the part, as she realized she--despite all of the "hope" kind of talk--might be well past the age of being effective as that leader of the old campaigns.
Yoda: While it was nice to see him, what the Hell was up with his look? Last time we saw ghost Yoda, he did not look like a younger, darker green...thing that was more animatronic Yoda than the 1983 puppet. ..and come on, its 2017, and the FX crew could not pull off the mouth movements of a decades-old puppet effect?
Bad:
Luke's purpose: Well...what was it? I'm not buying the usual YouTube channels' payola fueled--er--excuse that his Obi-Wan knock-off warning to Kylo (and Han's gold dice) was a seed planted to eventually bring him back to the light, when it was clear he has a Vader obsession dating back to his earlier years, which strongly suggests he--possibly though the same, corrupted personality of his grandfather--sees some sort of "truth" in Vader's interpretation of the Force. That's not just being led by the nose, or being fed a stream of Snoke propaganda. If this series had balls at all, Kylo would plunge head-first into darker territory, justifying it with spoken reasons for its value even Palpatine could not sell. That would be an interesting turn for a SW character.
Back to Luke, he did not need to die at all, either to sell Rey as the first of some new order (neverimnd she had like five minutes of dodgy "training", and Ghost Yoda destroyed the Jedi books), or to play into his "the Jedi must die" routine. Frankly, that makes no sense at all, until one realizes Kathleen Kennedy seems Hell-bent on running roughshod over the careful interpretation of the Force, balance and its purpose all to make SW into something it was not meant to be. George Lucas once said balance of the Force was achieved once Palpatine and Vader died---that they were causing its imbalance, meaning Luke surviving, and--as ROTJ Yoda instructed--pass on what he (Luke) learned was not going to create yet another kind of imbalance. Yoda was not fooled or deceiving himself by the time of his death, or clouded by manipulation from Sidious.
The one, consistent idea throughout the OT & PT was that the dark side was deviant--a pure corruption of all that was natural about the Force in practice or in energy influenced by it. Like a human soul, there's only one logical, healthy course it can take, and obviously, that's not the path of evil. Oh, but in TLJ, Luke (and now 'ol contradictin' Yoda) --after decades of knowing the "why and how" of the Force, how it was used/misused, are on this "Jedi must die" BS? In other words, all of what the audience learned about the right and wrong application of the Force across six films was wrong. Nonsensical, and all to suggest the Force needs some sort of New Agey rejection of a single, strong, moral ideology in favor of amounts to a blurring of all beliefs--dark, light--whatever else. That is the polar opposite of the Force as presented in the OT/PT, and makes Luke's life journey irrelevant.
Luke was supposed to be a course correction, or answer to (what we would come to learn in the prequels) what were the mistakes or lack of vision (of how they were being manipulated) from the Jedi--his was a unique presence and journey, making him the embodiment of the true nature of the Force, but now we're supposed to believe everyone had it all wrong--even after all of the lessons learned (presumably) by Obi-Wan and Yoda between the PT & OT? Yeah, Rey may be set up to be some sort of Force using "anti-Jedi" in E9, but that does not erase the idiotic, contradictory "we were wrong" dialogue, and its effect on the perception of the Jedi from several SW films.
Factually, Yoda and the Order were never responsible for Anakin turning, since they initially predicted grave danger surrounding his training. It was only the guilt trip of Jinn's death (through an equally guilt tripped Obi-Wan) that Anakin was trained, and even exposing Skywalker (and ultimately, Kylo) to the Force cannot be blamed for the inherent corrupt nature of the individual, which external influences rarely change.
Snoke: copy+pasting almost al of Palpatine's "seduction" dialogue from ROTJ and ROTS. Original ideas or dialogue cannot be that hard to create. Unlike Luke's face-off against the Sith in ROTJ, where there was no guarantee of his success / resistance, the Rey vs. Snoke scene held no drama at all, as no one in their right mind ever believed she was in any danger--not spiritual or physical danger. Kylo's betrayal was telegraphed long before that scene, which rendered Snoke a pointless Discount Sidious with no presence of the smothering, calculating evil provided by McDiarmid in the OT/PT.
Finn and Rose: WTF? It was bad enough Kathleen Kennedy and Cohorts continued to make Finn a 1940s buffoon who only served to take audiences out of the film (and yes, there was open audience grumbling abut his being a "distraction" from the serious end of the plot), but after the one thing TFA managed to get right--the Finn and Rey bond suggesting something more was on the horizon (at least until that last, friendzoning scene while Finn was unconscious), suddenly Finn's heart is dedicated to Rose, a character who spent two hours not even hinting an interest in him.
He barely knows Rose, was caught of guard by her rather "rehearsal only" kiss and in one move, we see the utter joy/relief on Rey's face (as she reunites with Finn) turn to some slightly sad gaze as he pulls a blanket on Rose.
I'm calling this BS on this, along with the fan-service (well, a certain kind of fan) of Poe introducing himself to Rey, as if to suggest any sort of romantic connection. Some of the more political-minded audiences criticized TFA for doing exactly what happened here: running away from the most genuine male-female relationship in the SW franchise since Han & Leia. That was the heart and glue of E7, and should have been here, but it seems SW is ready for all kinds of political commentary in the sequel trilogy, yet makes a conscious effort to avoid what many see as natural.
"Humor" in all the wrong places: from the creatures that were glorified Hoojibs (anyone familiar with Marvel's original Star Wars comic will get the reference) getting in the way of Chewbacca during the chase, to Finn being Jar Jar-ed (killing what should have been growth after his TFA experiences), andPO now being a useless gag machine, TLJ was serving far too many masters of modern filmmaking, where tongue is placed firmly in cheek even as death is raining down from the sky. WherePO and random creatures were once annoying or adding to the alien" factor, respectively, its now so forced that no one can simply ignore so obvious a gimmick that takes the viewer out of what should have been a grim movie.
Laura Dern: Oh come on! Who did not know she was set up to be a Grade A ass (we should somehow respect) who gets have her redemption moment? The problem is that she only sacrificed herself because of a series of poor decisions...and acting as Kennedy's mouthpiece against males asserting themselves with female authority figures (the entire Poe conflict was about a subtle as an elephant farting live grenades).
Space Nazis: the OT's imperials were certainly based on--in part--members of the Third Reich or its structure, but not a single character--not Tarkin, Motti, Ozzel, Tagge, Veers, Piett, Jerjerrod or anyone else were the "I AM ZE NAZIIIII GEN-ER-AAAL, AND ZUU ALL MOOST DIE!!!" screamers like Hux. He--and so many of his subordinates were gross stereotypes of the kind one would expect in broad comedies like the Police Squad! or Angie Tribeca TV series, not Star Wars. For whatever reason, some younger filmmakers are so removed from a general knowledge of real world influences, that's its all been dumbed down to the aforementioned parody, which makes for weak, cartoony villains. Compare Hux's Der Eeevil First Order cronies to all of those named OT imperials--each had their own temperament, and level of evil, but it was never over the top. They were believable threats, not cross-eyed, vein-popping stompers.

Overall: The Last Jedi--with its Resistance-on-the-run / Luke dead ending was supposed to give audiences that hopeless, clouded end of ESB feeling, but TLJ film was so disjointed, one event or plotline did not necessarily shape or influence the other (as it should in any coherent film). Things were trying to be "Star Wars-y" without actually doing what the best of the film series accomplished: spinning a plot that not only goes somewhere naturally, but ties all of the players together as functional movers of said plot-- crucial so the story cannot be complete without their specific action(s).
Finn's story was a diversion, just giving him something to do since he's pretty much useless now that he's been forcibly removed from what could have been a great relationship with Rey. Poe. Ohh po' 'ol Poe...he was stuffed with enough "He's the new Han Solo"-isms to fill the backing card description of every Solo action figure ever produced. Worst of all was the "call on hold" bit meant to mirror Han's "We're all fine here now, thank you...how are you?" detention center scene from ANH. Just stop.
The sequel trilogy--two films in--is not going to capture that OT feeling by making the new characters clones of the originals, or having characters (e.g., Luke and Snoke) parrot OT dialogue.
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I'm not saying that Abrams should do this. I'm saying I wouldn't be surprised if he did.

But why?

 

What does it buy him? What does it add to the story? JJ has been just as transparent, he said he left those danglers for Rian.

 

You dont go backwards as a filmmaker. JJ would rather push ahead and run with it to do something new than to waste time undoing something the last movie did.

 

Its just backwards thinking be cause you dont like what you got, you want a way for your wish/idea to work out.

 

They will never go backwards.

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Thats exactly why I only suggested that little tweak about the Nobody aspect. It fits with the truths told, just provides a layer similar to hey you have a sister named Leia and also its a layer that adds to Kylos hatred of others etc. And it can be handled in a few lines maybe with a Obi-Luke like huh, yeah I remember those people reassurance to Rey about any turmoil she may be dealing with about being abandoned... as clearly two movies in thats her emotional undercurrent.

 

Still, like I said for the record... Im good with Nobody.

 

Afterthought: They only reasons it feels like this should be something rather than nothing are; 1. The prior films, lineage expectations. 2. TFA set up the box, with part of that being the obvious TFA scenes and part of it being Kylos sudden and keen interest in what girl?! when he finds out about the Falcon and the people on it. That all screamed something, some sort of familiarity or past just something.

 

Leaving it simply at nothing however could give us something like this in Ep. 9. Assuming there is a slight time jump.

 

-Rey talking to Leias funeral pyre-

 

Ben told me I knew my parents, that I had no place. I thought they were Nobody... I felt disgust, rage... I was left like trash. Alone. You helped me find my place, you felt like more than my teacher. Now I am alone again.

 

Youre not alone.

 

Master Luke?!

 

You will see Leia again, in time.

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The whole Casino planet thing could have been cut down for length, but on the second viewing I appreciated that whole Finn/Rose/Poe side plot a lot more. The whole movie is centred around learning from failure - not just Luke, but for the rest of the characters as well.

 

All in all enjoyed it a lot more on the second outing, and definitely for me one of the better Star Wars outings. I can see this being the Star Wars movie holding up on multiple viewings, where as TFA and R1 I'm already a little bored on repeat viewings. Also I think it was Choc who mentioned Luke just using the force and not a lightsaber, really taking on what Yoda told him in ESB, made that scene a lot more powerful when I looked at it that way.

 

Only real complaints I still have with it now are:

 

- Bit too long, could of afforded to cut some stuff out

- Hardly any R2D2. Looks like he belongs to Rey now so better have more substantial screen time in 9

 

I'm genuinely surprised at the criticism of the humour in the movie. I thought they nailed that. Are people expecting this to be Game of Thrones in space? The only joke I was a bit meh on was Rey's wanting Kylo to put a shirt on, but even then it's something I could of seen play out between Leia and Han in the OT. A thousand times better than someone stepping in alien sh*t at the very least.

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Rian Johnson and his TLJ producer gave an interview with Deadline. When asked about having to stick to some kind of plan since he is making the second film in a ple-planned trilogy:

 

Not really. That’s what’s really cool about the storytelling process. There is definitely the idea that we know it is a three-movie arc. We know the first film is an introduction, then the middle act is training, meaning challenging the characters. The third is where they all come together and you have to resolve everything.

 

But I was truly able to write this script without bases to tag, and without a big outline on the wall. That meant I could react to what I felt from The Force Awakens, and what I wanted to see. I could make this movie personal. I could also just take these characters where it felt right and most interesting to take them. I think part of the reason the movie feels like it goes to some unexpected places with the characters is that we had that freedom. If it had all just been planned out and written down beforehand, it might have felt a little more calculate, I suppose.

 

To me he sounds like he's saying they gave him the freedom to just make whatever movie he wanted without taking into consideration that it's a part 2 of a 3 chapter story. He could "just take these characters where it felt right and most interesting to take them." So the theory that he decided to ignore what Abrams set up (Rey's parentage, who is Snoke?, Phasma having an important role) might be true. Makes one wonder what Abrams thought of this or if he will try to course correct back to his version (such as making it so it was a lie and Rey's parents really were someone we knew.)

 

That's actually another gripe I've got with the sequels, there doesn't seem to be a cohesive vision on where it is all going. I'm also wondering if this is part of what Mark Hamill's recent comments about George's involvement with the sequels were:

 

“What I wish is that they had been more accepting of his guidance and advice. Because he had an outline for ‘7,’ ‘8,’ and ‘9’. And it is vastly different to what they have done.”

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The whole Casino planet thing could have been cut down for length, but on the second viewing I appreciated that whole Finn/Rose/Poe side plot a lot more. The whole movie is centred around learning from failure - not just Luke, but for the rest of the characters as well.

 

All in all enjoyed it a lot more on the second outing, and definitely for me one of the better Star Wars outings. I can see this being the Star Wars movie holding up on multiple viewings, where as TFA and R1 I'm already a little bored on repeat viewings. Also I think it was Choc who mentioned Luke just using the force and not a lightsaber, really taking on what Yoda told him in ESB, made that scene a lot more powerful when I looked at it that way.

 

Only real complaints I still have with it now are:

 

- Bit too long, could of afforded to cut some stuff out

- Hardly any R2D2. Looks like he belongs to Rey now so better have more substantial screen time in 9

 

I'm genuinely surprised at the criticism of the humour in the movie. I thought they nailed that. Are people expecting this to be Game of Thrones in space? The only joke I was a bit meh on was Rey's wanting Kylo to put a shirt on, but even then %it's something I could of seen play out between Leia and Han in the OT. A thousand times better than someone stepping in alien sh*t at the very least.

Totally agree. My second viewing went much the same way. Spot on, with the Poe/Finn/Rose subplots. They work better on the second viewing for me. Even the thing that bothered my most, Luke pulling a saber on Kylo, bothered me a lot less.

 

With editing some of the Canto Bight stuff for faster pacing, adding more R2, and if I had been able to see Luke force crunch some walkers (granted I understand if he did, it would violate his peaceful death scene and the fact he lived years alone, in part, because he didn't want to train jedi and felt he caused enough death), I would have been happier. But as the film stands as it is, I am ove to happy with it. Not perfect, and definitely not the best Star Wars movie to date, but TLJ works. I was entertained, and I am OK with like 85 to 90% of it. I don't have the reaction to it that I have to TPM when I re watch it, where I want to skip over 1/3 of the movie, just to get to the Darth Maul duel.

 

 

That's actually another gripe I've got with the sequels, there doesn't seem to be a cohesive vision on where it is all going. I'm also wondering if this is part of what Mark Hamill's recent comments about George's involvement with the sequels were:

“What I wish is that they had been more accepting of his guidance and advice. Because he had an outline for ‘7,’ ‘8,’ and ‘9’. And it is vastly different to what they have done.”

After watching TFA the night before my second viewing of TLJ, I felt they are pretty cohesive, once I got past the jarring changes and unexpected places TLJ goes.

 

Remains to be seen how cohesive Episode 9 will be, though, since it was a clear set up to be Leia's chance to shine. But they've had since Carrie Fisher's passing last year, and I am sure they are still writing now, to adjust to that unfortunate change. Kind of wish they kept Holdo around for Episode 9 to fill the Leia role somewhat (at least in retrospect), by having her eject at the last minute, or in some other way. But I guess that clears the way for Poe to step up as leader, so I guess that works too.

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They must have considered, after Fisher died, that they could edit the scene and leave Leia dead in space, reshoot the rest of the scenes with Holdo stunning Poe, etc. and set Laura Dern up to continue in the next one.

You lose the Luke-Leia reunion, so maybe that sealed it. Or they thought it too tacky to change the story for that reason.

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Then again alot of people wanted some kind of backstory on an inanimate object and how it ended up at a bar. So I guess I shouldn't be surprised that people were expecting a tertiary, not even secondary, character to get some kind of story.

Let's look at this one for a second. People have wondered about the inanimate object since rumors of TFA opening with Luke's severed hand floating through space. JJ made the inanimate object important when he had it "call" to Rey. Han even asks how Maz got it, but JJ kicked the can down the road by having Maz say that it was a story for another time. Now the can is broken in two and no longer important. EXCEPT for the fact that Rian Johnson for some odd reason had Luke us it in his projection. After it's broken in two. After Luke tosses it like trash on Ach To. Fans want an answer because they were led to believe there would be one.

 

I mean it really makes no sense now as to why that lightsaber would "call" Rey. It never saw any of the visions that Rey got by touching it.

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This is my big problem with TLJ. I really don't care how much RJ pisses on the PT, I don't care what he does with Luke (too many fans put this guy on a pedestal if you ask me), but I can't stand that he basically pissed all over TFA. You're supposed to be continuing that story! Undo years of Star Wars lore and piss off fanboys if that's how you get your kicks as a filmmaker, but to reject so many setups from the trilogy you're in?!?!! That's just nonsense.

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I'm afraid of sounding like "this movie (or the story) didn't go the way _I_ wanted, so I don't like it". To be clear, I don't hate it, it's just a huge step down from TFA for me. I was rooting for it all the way along, but it just felt like RJ was trying so hard to take a sharp left on everything the fans wanted/expected to see after TFA that he forgot everything else. And I didn't want him to give the fans what they wanted necessarily, but if you're not going to deliver that, deliver something better.

He seems to have a deep love for the OT characters, I think he was good with Leia, Luke, Chewie, R2, Yoda and 3P0, but I felt no love for the new characters other than Kylo and maybe Rey, but I'm not sure how I feel about her story yet.

 

He turns Hux into comic relief, see my rant about Phasma on the last page, Poe acts like a child, Snoke is a red herring (perhaps that was the plan all along, but it still came across as underwhelming - like he's more into the "gotcha" than the scene), he ditches Maz (I'm fine with that one), and Finn, I don't know.. he needed work after TFA, but he didn't really get much character development, despite A LOT of screen time.

 

Basically, he took all the setups in another direction and it was the same direction: "Gotcha! That didn't really matter!"

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The film even had dialogue to illustrate that intention, FJ.

 

Recall: Everything you said is wrong.

 

While again I think there is great stuff in the film, the bad is truly bad and then its all wrapped in a tone that in some respects feels like trolling. A relishing in spitting on, maybe less aggressive, disregarding any type of expectation. Then RJ also apes the Prequels at one point, which is okay they are Star Wars and people like what they like but everyone knows how that style was received. Anyway, a part of me is wondering if that was RJs way of coping (consciously or otherwise) with the enormity of the task, of the expectation for this sequel. Doing this type of thing here or there is creative, but every step feels I dunno... like I said in some weird way like trolling. Almost parody.

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Then RJ also apes the Prequels at one point, which is okay they are Star Wars and people like what they like but everyone knows how that style was received.

When did he do that? The only prequel reference I remember was the Darth Sidious mention.

 

I'm pretty sure Maz's line about them not wanting to hear details of the union dispute was a little dig at the PT.

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Question (that may have been answered already). If Kylo didn't know about Rey until the events of TFA, and TLJ takes place immediately after, how did he have time to track her down and find out her backstory?

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