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The I've Seen The Last Jedi Thread (spoilers OBV)


Dark Wader
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A couple thoughts on the Canto Bight stuff, that kind of work together.

 

First one thing about Star Wars is that for the most part we don't really see what's so bad about the bad guys in some ways. I mean we know they will destroy there enemies ruthlessly, and this isn't one of those "was the Empire really bad?" type things, but I mean the average family on Naboo during the time of the Empire how is their life worse because of it? We know the Empire will deal with the Rebellion ruthlessly but what about the Empire makes it worth rebelling against in the first place? Now I know we won't see like a holocaust in Star Wars and I wouldn't want one anyway. However seeing those children living I guess in some kind of slavery having to live in horse stalls in a stable shows people who are suffering because of the events going on in the Galaxy. Rogue One showed some of this with the occupation on Jedha but I think in the Episodic movies this may be the best showing of it, and it's quick and easy.

 

Secondly I love the looks on the kids faces when Rose shows them she is part of the Resistance. These kids have terrible lives and they've heard there are heroes out there fighting the bad guys and you can see it in their faces when they see an actual Resistance member "wow, its real there really are people who are fighting the bad guys!". This plays into what I think is a major theme of this movie, fighting for whats right even when you can't win. The Resistance can't win this war, by the end of the movie its a dozen guys on the Falcon. They simply cannot win. However they still need to fight. They need the people of the Galaxy to not give up, they need the people to know someone, somewhere cares and is fighting. That;s how you keep hope alive. That's how you inspire people to perhaps one day fight too. That's how you maybe one day can have a real rebellion and win this war.

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Rian Johnson and his TLJ producer gave an interview with Deadline. When asked about having to stick to some kind of plan since he is making the second film in a ple-planned trilogy:

 

Not really. That’s what’s really cool about the storytelling process. There is definitely the idea that we know it is a three-movie arc. We know the first film is an introduction, then the middle act is training, meaning challenging the characters. The third is where they all come together and you have to resolve everything.

 

But I was truly able to write this script without bases to tag, and without a big outline on the wall. That meant I could react to what I felt from The Force Awakens, and what I wanted to see. I could make this movie personal. I could also just take these characters where it felt right and most interesting to take them. I think part of the reason the movie feels like it goes to some unexpected places with the characters is that we had that freedom. If it had all just been planned out and written down beforehand, it might have felt a little more calculate, I suppose.

 

To me he sounds like he's saying they gave him the freedom to just make whatever movie he wanted without taking into consideration that it's a part 2 of a 3 chapter story. He could "just take these characters where it felt right and most interesting to take them." So the theory that he decided to ignore what Abrams set up (Rey's parentage, who is Snoke?, Phasma having an important role) might be true. Makes one wonder what Abrams thought of this or if he will try to course correct back to his version (such as making it so it was a lie and Rey's parents really were someone we knew.)

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Did Abrams set that stuff up? I mean where did he set up Snoke's backstory having any importance? Snoke is in TFA for what? 3 scenes? I don't think he set up anything about making his backstory important. Same thing with Phasma, where did he set Phasma up for an important role? She has a scene or two at the end and then Chewbacca takes her out in a moment and they evidently literally throw her in the trash. As for Rey, yes that was set up as a mystery and we got an answer. Plus I'm pretty sure I read an interview where Ridley said that Abrams told her the backstory of her character and it was the same backstory Johnson told her. It wasn't clear if her parentage was something that was set up beforehand or if Abrams and Johnson came to the same conclusion independently.

 

I just don't think Abrams set up those first two things at all. Maybe people built them up in their own heads but there is nothing in TFA that makes Snoke's identity some huge mystery or plot point. In fact I said right after I saw TFA that Snoke is there simply for Kylo to kill and take his place, so for me Johnson built on what Abrams was setting up exactly as I envisioned. And certainly there is zero in TFA that suggests any huge role for Phasma.

 

And Reys parentage isn't dropped by this movie, its a major plot point and the question is answered.

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-Reys Nobody Trash Parents-

 

Kylo told the truth, he thinks her parents were nobody and trash, that Rey is from nothing and doesnt matter to this story. How Rey felt about her parents abandoning her is the truth.

 

However another truth could be that Reys parents were gifted Jedi students at the academy, that they showed Kylo up repeatedly, students pet perhaps. They came from no where, they dont have his blood, his grandfathers blood, it nags at him among many things. The betrayal happens and Reys parents flee, perhaps the mother is only pregnant and Rey being left on Jakku happens after some other dire circumstance later to be seen.

 

Its still simple, its still the truth from a certain point of view.

 

It also allows to flashback to younger Kylo again and play around with that moment while not erasing what weve seen.

 

-Phasma-

 

Phasma survives, loses the helmet and becomes Kylos lover. Have her kill Hux with amazing speed after he loses his mind again and mocks Kylo.

 

-Snoke-

 

Kylo answers Hux whos mocking his Supreme Leader title with maybe something like, That leechs strength was an illusion. Much like your importance.

 

This line implies Snoke had something Kylo needed, knowledge and experience, but that his fluency and power was leeched from the great raw power that exists within Kylo. Snokes history is not needed, but you could place him at the Jedi Academy as a student/teacher in a flashback if needed (but not necessarily focused on).

 

-Jedi Training-

 

Leias death is in the scroll. Maybe then there is a moment for Rey standing at a furneral pyre, Ghost Luke makes his first appearance. Maybe he says something like, In time, well see her again. And then Ghost Luke helps to complete Reys training.

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A couple thoughts on the Canto Bight stuff, that kind of work together.

 

...but I mean the average family on Naboo during the time of the Empire how is their life worse because of it? We know the Empire will deal with the Rebellion ruthlessly but what about the Empire makes it worth rebelling against in the first place? Now I know we won't see like a holocaust in Star Wars and I wouldn't want one anyway. However seeing those children living I guess in some kind of slavery having to live in horse stalls in a stable shows people who are suffering because of the events going on in the Galaxy. Rogue One showed some of this with the occupation on Jedha but I think in the Episodic movies this may be the best showing of it, and it's quick and easy.

Sure but we've seen slavery already existed before in TPM. Anakin and Shmi don't seem to be suffering as badly as the slave kids in TLJ but that's only because Watto was not a cruel being. He was just about business. (I'm pretty sure other slaves on Tattooine were not as lucky to have a master like Watto.) But they are still slaves and their lives are still at the mercy of whoever pays for them in a location in which the main economy is gambling and the black market. And this was all happening under the Republic, a galaxy governed by a peaceful democracy. It had nothing to do with a dictatorship or warfare. If anything Canto Bight shows the problems with capitalism, which is why I don't think it fit in as a way to show why it was important to keep fighting and inspire future generations to rebellion. This type of inspirational scene would've been better served if the kids were slaves at some weapons manufacturing plant controlled by the FO.

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-Reys Nobody Trash Parents-

 

Kylo told the truth, he thinks her parents were nobody and trash, that Rey is from nothing and doesnt matter to this story. How Rey felt about her parents abandoning her is the truth.

 

However another truth could be that Reys parents were gifted Jedi students at the academy, that they showed Kylo up repeatedly, students pet perhaps. They came from no where, they dont have his blood, his grandfathers blood, it nags at him among many things. The betrayal happens and Reys parents flee, perhaps the mother is only pregnant and Rey being left on Jakku happens after some other dire circumstance later to be seen.

 

Its still simple, its still the truth from a certain point of view.

 

It also allows to flashback to younger Kylo again and play around with that moment while not erasing what weve seen.

 

-Phasma-

 

Phasma survives, loses the helmet and becomes Kylos lover. Have her kill Hux with amazing speed after he loses his mind again and mocks Kylo.

 

-Snoke-

 

Kylo answers Hux whos mocking his Supreme Leader title with maybe something like, That leechs strength was an illusion. Much like your importance.

 

This line implies Snoke had something Kylo needed, knowledge and experience, but that his fluency and power was leeched from the great raw power that exists within Kylo. Snokes history is not needed, but you could place him at the Jedi Academy as a student/teacher in a flashback if needed (but not necessarily focused on).

 

-Jedi Training-

 

Leias death is in the scroll. Maybe then there is a moment for Rey standing at a furneral pyre, Ghost Luke makes his first appearance. Maybe he says something like, In time, well see her again. And then Ghost Luke helps to complete Reys training.

 

1-Reys parentage is done, it's over. There is no lie. Kylo doesn't even tell her about her parents. She says it herself. Kylo says something like "you already know the truth" and Rey says "my parents were nobody".

 

2-You don't really want Phasma to me Kylo's lover, right?

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A couple thoughts on the Canto Bight stuff, that kind of work together.

 

...but I mean the average family on Naboo during the time of the Empire how is their life worse because of it? We know the Empire will deal with the Rebellion ruthlessly but what about the Empire makes it worth rebelling against in the first place? Now I know we won't see like a holocaust in Star Wars and I wouldn't want one anyway. However seeing those children living I guess in some kind of slavery having to live in horse stalls in a stable shows people who are suffering because of the events going on in the Galaxy. Rogue One showed some of this with the occupation on Jedha but I think in the Episodic movies this may be the best showing of it, and it's quick and easy.

Sure but we've seen slavery already existed before in TPM. Anakin and Shmi don't seem to be suffering as badly as the slave kids in TLJ but that's only because Watto was not a cruel being. He was just about business. (I'm pretty sure other slaves on Tattooine were not as lucky to have a master like Watto.) But they are still slaves and their lives are still at the mercy of whoever pays for them in a location in which the main economy is gambling and the black market. And this was all happening under the Republic, a galaxy governed by a peaceful democracy. It had nothing to do with a dictatorship or warfare. If anything Canto Bight shows the problems with capitalism.

 

I agree with this, but I do think there is something to be said for the idea of the Resistance inspiring others. That was my real point. Obviously I didn't forget that Anakin was a slave.

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Ive been posting on nightly for almost 20 years. In that time there have been no shortage of complex theories. And none of them have ever been right.

 

Zero.

 

Just because ESB gave us one of the most famous conspiratorial twists in a film people seem to think that ever Star Wars movie will follow suit.

 

To date, NONE of them outside of the ESB twist, and maybe the Leia reveal, have had a giant shock or twist. ESPECIALLY if it is complex.

 

Star Wars has only ONCE told us a definitive thing and then revealed that wasnt the case.

 

Snoke is dead. Rey has garbage parents. There is ZERO logic to them now over complicating the story to go back when it buys them nothing. I know this site is founded on bonkers theories, but none of it ever comes to pass.

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-Reys Nobody Trash Parents-

 

Kylo told the truth, he thinks her parents were nobody and trash, that Rey is from nothing and doesnt matter to this story. How Rey felt about her parents abandoning her is the truth.

 

However another truth could be that Reys parents were gifted Jedi students at the academy, that they showed Kylo up repeatedly, students pet perhaps. They came from no where, they dont have his blood, his grandfathers blood, it nags at him among many things. The betrayal happens and Reys parents flee, perhaps the mother is only pregnant and Rey being left on Jakku happens after some other dire circumstance later to be seen.

 

Its still simple, its still the truth from a certain point of view.

 

It also allows to flashback to younger Kylo again and play around with that moment while not erasing what weve seen.

 

-Phasma-

 

Phasma survives, loses the helmet and becomes Kylos lover. Have her kill Hux with amazing speed after he loses his mind again and mocks Kylo.

 

-Snoke-

 

Kylo answers Hux whos mocking his Supreme Leader title with maybe something like, That leechs strength was an illusion. Much like your importance.

 

This line implies Snoke had something Kylo needed, knowledge and experience, but that his fluency and power was leeched from the great raw power that exists within Kylo. Snokes history is not needed, but you could place him at the Jedi Academy as a student/teacher in a flashback if needed (but not necessarily focused on).

 

-Jedi Training-

 

Leias death is in the scroll. Maybe then there is a moment for Rey standing at a furneral pyre, Ghost Luke makes his first appearance. Maybe he says something like, In time, well see her again. And then Ghost Luke helps to complete Reys training.

1-Reys parentage is done, it's over. There is no lie. Kylo doesn't even tell her about her parents. She says it herself. Kylo says something like "you already know the truth" and Rey says "my parents were nobody".

 

2-You don't really want Phasma to me Kylo's lover, right?

1. What I suggested about Rey doesnt say what was said is a lie, what was is all true. It was only a thought in response to someone else wondering if JJ might want to tweak things if TLJ disrupted ideas he had. It is a tiny tweak that does not undo anything, just layers it.

 

2. Just an idea. Kylo cares about his body, he appears vain. Reylo is meh, Phasma is a tagalong character for two films so this is a tagalong role again just up the ladder of success so to speak. It does not require blatant attention, it can be subtle just sorta there.

 

Everything I suggested wasnt meant to be plot points, just a moment here and there weaved in. They are just little things that were in response to that idea that maybe JJ had other plans for these characters.

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Ive been posting on nightly for almost 20 years. In that time there have been no shortage of complex theories. And none of them have ever been right.

 

Zero.

 

Just because ESB gave us one of the most famous conspiratorial twists in a film people seem to think that ever Star Wars movie will follow suit.

 

To date, NONE of them outside of the ESB twist, and maybe the Leia reveal, have had a giant shock or twist. ESPECIALLY if it is complex.

 

Star Wars has only ONCE told us a definitive thing and then revealed that wasnt the case.

 

Snoke is dead. Rey has garbage parents. There is ZERO logic to them now over complicating the story to go back when it buys them nothing. I know this site is founded on bonkers theories, but none of it ever comes to pass.

I agree 100% with that. But for most of those 20 years you've been posting on nightly, George Lucas was in complete control of the franchise. He was always straightforward with it all and under him all those theories really were bonkers. That's just not the way he told stories. But we have to take into account now that future writers/directors may want to start going sideways with it. Johnson seemed to imply as much in his interview. Everything he kept wanting to do they said yes to the point where he felt he had to be the one to reign himself in because they really were not. I'm not saying that he could've just run amok with everything (the fact that other writers/directors have been fired with the other films shows it hasn't reached that point yet.) But based on what we got with TLJ and what he has said afterward, it wouldn't surprise me at all if Abrams were to throw some swerves back in again.

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When you think about it, Reys parentage being a couple "nobodies" is a swerve. If you polled fans prior to the movie the vast majority would have thought her parents were some existing character(s) or in some way important to the story. So they did swerve everyone by not swerving at all.

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Exactly-- going "sideways" as RJ says doesn't mean getting crazy. It just means being unexpected. You can be unexpected without grand conspiracy theories. These aren't political thrillers.

 

If your theories has more than two or three steps to explain, it'll NEVER be in a Star Wars movie.

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It's just funny to me when I see people say that Johnson ignored what JJ set up as far as the "mystery" around Snoke and the parentage of Rey. I really truly felt that Snoke would get nearly no backstory and that he was simply there for Kylo to kill and take his place. That scene went so closely to how I thought it actually amazes me. I thought Kylo would strike him down as Snoke was distracted with Rey, exactly what happens. I wasn't quite as sure with Reys parentage but I did think the correct way to go was to have her be a nobody.

 

So just odd for me to see people think Johnson didn't follow out from JJ's lead when, to me, he followed out exactly as I thought he would and should.

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Something I saw on Twitter. Do you think there's a divide between fans old enough to have waited 3 years between OT movies and those who watched all three of them back to back because they were on video by then? In fact, there are probably 20-somethings who watched the PT that way as well. So they're not used to several years passing between films leading to endless speculation.

 

Obviously I'm talking overall reactions in the larger world, not here.

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No, I just think some people like it and some don't. I think someone when you like a movie you think "man this movie is good, there has to be some underlying reason people don't like it". Just like when you dislike one you think "oh these people would just like anything, they have no taste".

 

Fact is some people like it, some don't. Some who don't like it now will like it more eventually, some who love it now will like it less in time. But for the most part the people who don't like, just don't like it. It didn't hit the spot for them.

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One thing that I vastly preferred in TLJ to TFA is the music editing. I don't necessarily mean the score, itself, but the music was noticeably present at the big moments in this movie whereas I often didn't really notice it in TFA, especially during the big battle scenes.

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Exactly-- going "sideways" as RJ says doesn't mean getting crazy. It just means being unexpected. You can be unexpected without grand conspiracy theories. These aren't political thrillers.

 

If your theories has more than two or three steps to explain, it'll NEVER be in a Star Wars movie.

I'm not talking about going crazy with those Naboo=Dagobah theories though. I was just pondering it because RJ confirmed he was allowed to take it anywhere he wanted:

 

When I would check in with the story group at Lucasfilm, really what I found is that they would be the ones encouraging me to go for it. They would say, "Oh that's really weird; oh my god, you have to try that." If anything, they were protecting me against self-editing or holding back out of fear.

 

Based on that analysis, is it really hard to believe Abrams can just add in a line somewhere in Episode IX that it was a lie? That Snoke manipulated Rey's thoughts? Something akin to that. No need for some grand explanation. Just some bits of dialogue between characters that reveals "the truth" about Rey. Look at ROTJ as an example. The twist that Leia was Luke's sister wasn't some major discovery made during a climactic moment that the outcome of the film hinged on (as twists usually go...you could even argue this "twist" really made zero difference to the plot.) It happened as a simple brief conversation between two characters sitting on a tree.

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Where did he set Phasma up for an important role?

I don't know if JJ set Phasma up for an "important role" per se, but he did create her as a character.

She's not just "Stormtrooper Captain 3478", she got a name and shiny armor and was played by a (sort of) name actress and Phasma is in cross-promotional ads for phone companies. So it seems like this is an actual character. JJ just created her in Part 1 of this trilogy.

But then RJ doesn't like her I guess (and I agree she wasn't a great character in TFA), but then develop her into something and use her. Or develop her story a little and then kill her off. But what he did was the worst choice: He ignores her for the whole movie, then brings her in with no setup, no real established tension beyond what JJ had done and then kills her off. So you piss on JJ's movie, and then take a crap in your own. Great move.

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Then again alot of people wanted some kind of backstory on an inanimate object and how it ended up at a bar. So I guess I shouldn't be surprised that people were expecting a tertiary, not even secondary, character to get some kind of story.

 

I just shake my head sometimes at what people want/expect. The story is not about Phasma, its not about Snoke. Those are role players, they don't need to do more than fill out their roles.

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For the record:

 

I like Snoke being punked.

 

I loved the lightsaber thru the head of the POM Marketing Guard.

 

I love that it appears the plan was to have Leia be Yoda to Rey and Luke be Obi-Wan.

 

I love Rey and Kylo talking in their minds and their entire dynamic.

 

I like that Rey is Nobody.

 

I love the climax.

 

I love that Luke was conflicted, but thought it was done in a way that was too divisive.

 

I like Rose.

 

Thats about it.

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