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The I've Seen The Last Jedi Thread (spoilers OBV)


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I just realized something: Shoke's origins are right in front of us. Tank keeps asking "If Snoke is so powerful, where was he when the Emperor reigned?" The answer is: he wasn't that powerful back then. When the Emperor died that left a void on the dark side. The Force demands balance. So after the emperor's death, The Force empowered Snoke to reach that balance. Just as, as stated, when Kylo got more powerful The Force empowered Rey. It's that simple so there's no need for a bunch of backstory about where he was hiding and why didn't the Emperor notice Snoke, etc.

Here's the problem with that logic. There's enough dialogue in the PT and in TLJ to equate "balancing the force" with "destroying the sith." Dark side users are like a cancer. Their existence is what is creating the imbalance, throwing the force into disharmony. Rey, as was Anakin, was the force's way of self-correcting this. Their roles are to eliminate whoever the trouble maker is who is throwing the force out of balance. Balance doesn't mean equal amounts of light and dark. It is the elimination of the dark altogether.
Yeah it appears more like the Force is good, anything against the Force is bad. Nature, working with the flow of life... all good. Taking power for yourself, doing your own thing etc... all bad. Given that, imbalance would be when anything is powerful enough to upset the will of the Force. Could be Sith, could be Hutts, whatever. Capitalism. ;-) lol
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Star Wars - Episode 8: The Last Jedi Good: Rey: Despite referring to Rey as a Mary-Sue in TFA, I found isolating her from the producer's politicized string-pulling leaves a stronger character. Ridley

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I just realized something: Shoke's origins are right in front of us. Tank keeps asking "If Snoke is so powerful, where was he when the Emperor reigned?" The answer is: he wasn't that powerful back then. When the Emperor died that left a void on the dark side. The Force demands balance. So after the emperor's death, The Force empowered Snoke to reach that balance. Just as, as stated, when Kylo got more powerful The Force empowered Rey. It's that simple so there's no need for a bunch of backstory about where he was hiding and why didn't the Emperor notice Snoke, etc.

Here's the problem with that logic. There's enough dialogue in the PT and in TLJ to equate "balancing the force" with "destroying the sith." Dark side users are like a cancer. Their existence is what is creating the imbalance, throwing the force into disharmony. Rey, as was Anakin, was the force's way of self-correcting this. Their roles are to eliminate whoever the trouble maker is who is throwing the force out of balance. Balance doesn't mean equal amounts of light and dark. It is the elimination of the dark altogether.

 

I think TLJ may have reversed it.

 

That was a big debate that Lucas himself cleared up-- that no dark side = balance. Not an equal amount of light and dark. TLJ seems to lean toward saying you can't have one without the other, which is what balance actually means.

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I don't know. Luke's dialogue in TLJ seems to back Lucas's view of balance. When referring to the end of the Sith and of his father's redemption, Luke says "and for a while there was balance," and then goes on to basically describe how it all went to hell with the corruption of Ben and the rise of Snoke and the FO. His use of the word "balance" is very interesting here because, like the PT characters, he used it when referring to the extinction of the Sith. This bit of dialogue, like the dialogue we got from the PT, all points toward the notion that balance only exist in the absence of the bad guys.

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That was a big debate that Lucas himself cleared up-- that no dark side = balance. Not an equal amount of light and dark. TLJ seems to lean toward saying you can't have one without the other, which is what balance actually means.

 

I've never bought that and thought it was too literal an interpretation. I've always looked at balance in the Force as akin to homeostasis and the Dark Side as a disease. A little bit of a hint to this effect is given in Attack of the Clones when Yoda and Mace Windu talk about the Jedi becoming weaker in the Force. The Jedi were fat and happy for a thousand generations before Palpatine took them out, and when he arose to challenge the Jedi, Anakin was born to restore balance. The implication is that Rey was born due to Kylo Ren and Snoke again upsetting the balance. I.E. whenever the balance is upset, the Force (or Midichlorians according to Qui-Gon) sends an agent to eliminate the taint and bring the Force back to health.

 

BTW, wanna take bets that "Balance of the Force" finally becomes the title next time around?

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Got back from seeing it last night.

 

I enjoyed it.. Though not to the extent that Choc did or as Shadow Dog did.. Though I agree with them on most of their points.

 

I find myself agreeing with everything Poe said in this thread and what Driver has said about the Luke saver-pull incident. I was fine with it. I found conflicted Luke to be the movies greatest strength TBH.

 

The chase thing and the casino thing are what made me think... "SOMETHING needs to be cut from this movie" as soon as the credits started rolling.

 

I'd say this is on par with TFA for me in terms of enjoyment. It's never going to be as good as the OT because NOTHING ever will. You can't recreate that magic, because we all now have overwhelming nostelgia for the OT because it resonated so strongly when we were all small. But I bet youngsters for whom this will be amongst their first Star Wars experiences will love it and have all the magic feels we all got from the OT.

 

So much of our dissapointment is manufactured by our own expectations...due to our irrational fandom, coming to places like nightly.net and speculating, nitpicking and gossiping and exciting each other for two whole years about what we think is or should be in the film.

 

So while I didn't LOVE this film as much as Empire or anything from the OT.. I still enjoyed the shit out of it. And I think most of the gripes I could have with it are largely my own fault due to my expectations/desires as a fan. So.. Whatever. We got what we got and it was still better than the PT.

 

I loved everything regarding Rey and Kylo.. Loved their temporary team up and I thought that fight sequence slayed. ****ing awesome.

 

My only concern (and maybe it's another fandom thing) is that now Snoke is gone, Kylo REALLY needs to become an all powerful threat. Because while I still find him enigmatic and has his moments of badassery I don't fear him like I feared Vader. Or the emperor. We know his weakesses and his lack of control. How is he going to step it up in the next film to be the crushingly powerful big bad we need him to be?? I can only assume there is a time jump or something for him to go through a large amount of growth... To squash his petty weaknesses off camera.. So when he comes back we see a ****ing Dark Lord... Not a squire.

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I thought Johnson's view of The Force was clear in Luke and Rey's dialogue. Warmth and cold, life and death and rebirth and all that. It's all tied up together in a harmonious balance. Things that appear to be in diametric opposition are all part of the same cosmic balance i.e. The Force.

So Light and Dark work together. That's balance.

 

I don't think he could have been much clearer.

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Guest El Chalupacabra

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Got back from seeing it last night.

I enjoyed it.. Though not to the extent that Choc did or as Shadow Dog did.. Though I agree with them on most of their points.

I find myself agreeing with everything Poe said in this thread and what Driver has said about the Luke saver-pull incident. I was fine with it. I found conflicted Luke to be the movies greatest strength TBH.

The chase thing and the casino thing are what made me think... "SOMETHING needs to be cut from this movie" as soon as the credits started rolling.

I'd say this is on par with TFA for me in terms of enjoyment. It's never going to be as good as the OT because NOTHING ever will. You can't recreate that magic, because we all now have overwhelming nostelgia for the OT because it resonated so strongly when we were all small. But I bet youngsters for whom this will be amongst their first Star Wars experiences will love it and have all the magic feels we all got from the OT.

So much of our dissapointment is manufactured by our own expectations...due to our irrational fandom, coming to places like nightly.net and speculating, nitpicking and gossiping and exciting each other for two whole years about what we think is or should be in the film.

So while I didn't LOVE this film as much as Empire or anything from the OT.. I still enjoyed the **** out of it. And I think most of the gripes I could have with it are largely my own fault due to my expectations/desires as a fan. So.. Whatever. We got what we got and it was still better than the PT.

I loved everything regarding Rey and Kylo.. Loved their temporary team up and I thought that fight sequence slayed. ****ing awesome.

My only concern (and maybe it's another fandom thing) is that now Snoke is gone, Kylo REALLY needs to become an all powerful threat. Because while I still find him enigmatic and has his moments of badassery I don't fear him like I feared Vader. Or the emperor. We know his weakesses and his lack of control. How is he going to step it up in the next film to be the crushingly powerful big bad we need him to be?? I can only assume there is a time jump or something for him to go through a large amount of growth... To squash his petty weaknesses off camera.. So when he comes back we see a ****ing Dark Lord... Not a squire.

Great post Odine.

 

I agree that the Canto Bight (Casino Planet ) and space chase scenes were the weakest points and could use cuts or edits. They bothered me a lot less the second time around, though. Plot point about needing a hacker aside, the only other necessary out of that trip to come out of it is to show us the force capable kids, which may be important in the next movie. However, ironically, I am now much more interested to see what scenes were CUT from TLJ.

 

I agree that TFA and TLJ are about equal, each with their own high and low points. I was initially very critical of TLJ, but on my second viewing, I have "back peddled" much of that criticism. You are spot on about expectations. I think much of my initial criticisms did stem from me having expectations or making assumptions on how I thought the movie would/should go, that on my first viewing that the turns or changes in character (for Luke) that Rian Johnson took, were jarring to me. Because of that, I didn't allow me to enjoy the film as much as I could have. The second time through was a lot more enjoyable, and I was able to take in the movie a lot more.

 

The Kylo-Rey team up works for me now, as a point to bring Kylo to power as Supreme Leader. It was choreographed well, too. I was initially critical of this scene as not having much impact for me (I think I said it had about as much impact to me as ab episode of a Filmation cartoon where He-Man and Skeletor team up), but I am finding there are subtle things about TLJ that I didn't pick up on, in addition to viewing things a different way the second time around.

 

I also agree that they need to Ramp Up Kylo as a powerhouse villain. He is at mini-boss level, still. I probably should post this in the Ep 9 speculation thread, but I think that Kylo should go straight up evil. No more conflict or pull to the light, and absolutely irredeemable (I always thought this was the way to go). He needs to be a Hitler for the next movie....destroying solar systems on grand scales, maybe going King Herod and issuing edicts to kill any force sensitive children found, or something equally shocking. He needs to go somewhere even Vader and Palpatine didn't go, if for no other reason than to prove his old mentor, Snoke, wrong and to say to the galaxy..."not only have I lived up the the legacy of Vader, but surpassed it!"

 

The added benefit to Kylo going that dark is the door is open for First Order defectors. I'd like to see Kylo be so appalling and shocking to some First Order members who aren't necessary evil but just following orders, that they finally see the "light," and join the Resistance/Rebels, with Finn as the one who rallies them.

 

 

I thought Johnson's view of The Force was clear in Luke and Rey's dialogue. Warmth and cold, life and death and rebirth and all that. It's all tied up together in a harmonious balance. Things that appear to be in diametric opposition are all part of the same cosmic balance i.e. The Force.
So Light and Dark work together. That's balance.

I don't think he could have been much clearer.

Agreed. This movie really hammered home the Yin/Yang aspect of the Force...rather than one side needing to completely conquer the other, they both must co-exist, and fill their respective roles.

 

What if there is another way to look at the Force...more from a Hindu trinity aspect:

Light side is Vishnu, the preserver

Dark Side is Shiva, the destroyer

...and the force in its entirety is Brahma, the creator.

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My only concern (and maybe it's another fandom thing) is that now Snoke is gone, Kylo REALLY needs to become an all powerful threat.

 

Yeah, I mentioned that was a big problem. As much as Kylo Ren has grown as a character, he only grew a little as a threat. He still lacked the control over himself needed to master others. Palpatine, Snoke, and Dooku being prime threats as leaders do to their ability to manipulate others to their control. Kylo Ren is a mad dog best employed by someone with more discipline. His first set of commands as leader in TLJ showing him to be completely out of control, hyper-focused on gnats bothering him, and unable to gain Hux's loyalty or respect. And while Vader was something of a mad dog henchman himself, Leia literally saying that Tarkin was holding his leash, he had a presence that let you know that he could have led if needed. Maybe not as powerfully as Palpatine and with too much emphasis on his own personal demons, but he could have done it effectively enough that the Empire would have continued.

 

It feels like that Kylo Ren's hold over the universe will be very tenuous. The military won't respect him, governing systems will collapse, and he'll need to be even more violent than the Emperor in order to keep the First Order in charge of everything. The Resistance will swell. It cannot last.

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Here's another thing that bothered me. I don't remember all the prequels, but I think it's true, and certainly in the OT and TFA, when a lightsabre is ignited, it's a moment.

The scene focuses, maybe the music heightens, the sabre ignites and the hum is heard for a moment. That's part of Star Wars.

For Rian Johnson, lightsabres kind of just click on and off like light switches. No biggie.

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Here's another thing that bothered me. I don't remember all the prequels, but I think it's true, and certainly in the OT and TFA, when a lightsabre is ignited, it's a moment.

The scene focuses, maybe the music heightens, the sabre ignites and the hum is heard for a moment. That's part of Star Wars.

For Rian Johnson, lightsabres kind of just click on and off like light switches. No biggie.

I agree with that.

 

Though the flip side is we did get to see Rey throw a sabre to Kylo who catches it and ignites it point-blank into the face of a royal guard who's got him in a choke hold. That was pretty ****ing sick.

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I agree that the Canto Bight (Casino Planet ) and space chase scenes were the weakest points and could use cuts or edits. They bothered me a lot less the second time around, though. Plot point about needing a hacker aside, the only other necessary out of that trip to come out of it is to show us the force capable kids, which may be important in the next movie. However, ironically, I am now much more interested to see what scenes were CUT from TLJ.

All we really know is that one kid is force capable. I think it was done just to show that there are more in the universe. It would be a gamble coming back to this as JJ has a big task ahead trying to tie this story up with a nice little bow on it.
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Guest El Chalupacabra

 

 

 

I agree that the Canto Bight (Casino Planet ) and space chase scenes were the weakest points and could use cuts or edits. They bothered me a lot less the second time around, though. Plot point about needing a hacker aside, the only other necessary out of that trip to come out of it is to show us the force capable kids, which may be important in the next movie. However, ironically, I am now much more interested to see what scenes were CUT from TLJ.

All we really know is that one kid is force capable. I think it was done just to show that there are more in the universe. It would be a gamble coming back to this as JJ has a big task ahead trying to tie this story up with a nice little bow on it.

 

True, just that one kid in that stable may be force capable. But if Kylo founds an "Order of Ren," full of the Knights of Ren V 2.0, and if the force is reactionary where just like Rey is a reaction to Kylo, then maybe there are more kids out there like the stable boy who could be a reaction to any order that Kylo founds.

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All we really know is that one kid is force capable.

 

Do you think that was the point of that scene, to show us that there is one Force kid out there? Or was it to imply that there is always another chance at salvation - always another potential hero out there - thus more than one?

 

Well the real point of that scene is to show that the idea of rebellion will spread, but that was the secondary point.

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I still think most over think the Force and Dark Side.

 

The Force is everything everywhere happening as designed, that includes life and death and every unfortunate happenstance.

 

The Dark Side is when something is powerful enough to manipulate existence to its own means. Whether for greed, mania or simply because you cant bear to see a loved one die.

 

The Dark Side imbalances existence.

 

All the films support that simple view. It only gets clouded when the characters or real life people like us impose our points of view, our agendas (eg. Jedi sitting pretty and wanting it to stay that way in the Prequels) and our thoughts about right and wrong (eg. Anakin believing every tragedy in his life was evil and any one that didnt see that was evil too).

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Exactly. Whatever "balance" means, the movies have consistently painted it as a good thing, something that our protagonists desire. The movies have also consistently painted dark side users as bad and inherently unhealthy to the cosmos. Their removal is also something that is desired. Ergo, balance = removal of dark side.

 

The yin-yang idea would suggest that dark side users are needed to maintain a healthy universe, and nothing in the movies have suggested this. Quite the opposite.

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Some of the other things are just incredible nitpicks. I mean "people don't react well to Finn in the leaking suit" "they didn't tow the ship" these are just silly. The whole "this guy didn't sense this, that guy didn't sense that" those are just rabbit holes, I mean why didn't the Emperor sense Vader's intentions?

 

I get people don't like the movie but I do think when people's initial reaction is negative they just begin to pick apart every little thing and it just feeds this fire of dislike. I mean you think Finn and Rose's mission was boring, I get that it's not the best part of the movie but being mad that BB8 early in the movie seems to have alot of stuff inside of him and then later has room for alot of coins? That's basically insane.

I've been meaning to respond to this but it's been a busy weekend. I finally found some time to lay my thoughts out. I'm one of those that pointed out those nitpicks - Finn's leaking suit, BB-8 the slot machine gun. The reason I brought those examples up is because, as I said in my original post after first seeing the film, they seemed to introduce the characters through some type of cartoonish comedy. You had the dialogue between Poe and Hux where Poe makes a mom joke. BB-8 and the dam breaking/arm growing technique where if you can't fix the fuse board, just bash it with your head. That should make it work right? Finn wakes up from some serious injuries and just stumbles around half naked in a military ship with all sorts of fluids spilling everywhere and everyone just pretends that's normal. Rey has found Luke and handed him his lighstaber, the weapon passed down from his father and the one he lost in the duel where he learned the truth and made the life-altering choice, and tosses it like she just gave him a half-eaten banana. Enter Maz with her selfie stick gun fight.

 

I felt that this set the tone for the kind of movie we were going to get. And that's what happened. What if someone on the Rebel base on Yavin or Hoth was walking around like that? What if Wedge made mom jokes while talking to Piett? Imagine if during the Battle of Yavin, when Luke tells R2 the stabilizer has broken loose and asks him to see if he can lock it down, R2 just bashed his head against the console. Come on.

 

You know where you do see this comedy? In Rebels. There have been plenty of instances where the Rebels play jokes and banter on with the Imperials to make them look like buffoons. Chopper does all sorts of goofy stuff. That's fine for Rebels because it's a cartoon that plays on the same channel as Mickey Mouse. So that type of stuff is expected. But I don't want my major Star Wars films to match that.

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All we really know is that one kid is force capable.

 

Do you think that was the point of that scene, to show us that there is one Force kid out there? Or was it to imply that there is always another chance at salvation - always another potential hero out there - thus more than one?

 

Well the real point of that scene is to show that the idea of rebellion will spread, but that was the secondary point.

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It might be interesting if Kylo doesn't step up-- or tries to and fails, and he knows he's failing the First Order and has to do something desperate. Kylo's primary motivation up until now has been getting Luke. He seems to be with the First Order for convenience sake. He doesn't strike me as a fascist, or somebody who really even cares about politics. Now that Luke is gone, I'm not sure what he has. Maybe nothing-- which might be a really interesting thing to do with the character.

 

I always see him as what Anakin should have been. Anakin wanted ultimate power-- well, now Kylo more or less has it. He has the First Order to command, one of the two people who could stop him is gone, and the other he wants to join him.

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It might be interesting if Kylo doesn't step up-- or tries to and fails, and he knows he's failing the First Order and has to do something desperate. Kylo's primary motivation up until now has been getting Luke. He seems to be with the First Order for convenience sake. He doesn't strike me as a fascist, or somebody who really even cares about politics. Now that Luke is gone, I'm not sure what he has. Maybe nothing-- which might be a really interesting thing to do with the character.

 

I always see him as what Anakin should have been. Anakin wanted ultimate power-- well, now Kylo more or less has it. He has the First Order to command, one of the two people who could stop him is gone, and the other he wants to join him.

But then who will be the main threat? If Kylo can't step up... The film doesn't have any really threatening antagonist. Hux certainly can't cut the mustard.

 

I'm not saying I disagree with you. Cause that might be an interesting idea.. I really want to know what Kylo is going to do next. I'd like to see him ascend (or descend?) to heights Vader never did.

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It might be interesting if Kylo doesn't step up-- or tries to and fails, and he knows he's failing the First Order and has to do something desperate. Kylo's primary motivation up until now has been getting Luke. He seems to be with the First Order for convenience sake. He doesn't strike me as a fascist, or somebody who really even cares about politics. Now that Luke is gone, I'm not sure what he has. Maybe nothing-- which might be a really interesting thing to do with the character.

 

I always see him as what Anakin should have been. Anakin wanted ultimate power-- well, now Kylo more or less has it. He has the First Order to command, one of the two people who could stop him is gone, and the other he wants to join him.

But then who will be the main threat? If Kylo can't step up... The film doesn't have any really threatening antagonist. Hux certainly can't cut the mustard.

 

I'm not saying I disagree with you. Cause that might be an interesting idea.. I really want to know what Kylo is going to do next. I'd like to see him ascend (or descend?) to heights Vader never did.

 

The only way I think it works for Kylo to not step up or fail as Supreme Leader is if the intent is to redeem him, which I do NOT want to see. I want his story to be the complete inversion of Luke's, which is to say he never falters from the Dark Side, even when he is "tempted" by the light. No, I want to see Kylo go completely evil, and I want him to put the dick in dictator. The worst dictators in history are scared little boys, after all. Look at Caligula, Nero, Hitler, Stalin, the Kim Dynasty of North Korea, as examples.

 

 

Snoke? Maybe he's not really dead.

I really hope they don't go there. I think they should have cut him in half the other way.

 

 

You have a point. Darth Maul was cut in half and look at him

That worked for Clone Wars, but really doesn't work for the movies. At least to me it doesn't.

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