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The I've Seen The Last Jedi Thread (spoilers OBV)


Dark Wader
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...she began to question the physics of a Lightsaber. Since light has no mass how does one wield the weapon and balance it enough to fight. She is 19 but only got into Star Wars with TFA. She also is a science nerd having studied physics, chemistry and the highest levels of mathematics available in high school and her first year of University (where she studied Mechanical Engineering ...

 

 

Though I'm not Tank, I think the general consensus in the fandom about lightsabers is that they are plasma-based bladed weapons, with the plasma of the blade contained in a magnetic field. This explains why they do not become infinitely long, and why they do not pass through other lightsabers. They are not literally "laser swords", and the blade is not completely massless.

 

 

They have R2. Lucas had mentioned before about his idea that these were stories being told years later from the perspective of the droids, who were present for most of the critical things happening in the saga and would be the only ones living on way past everyone else. The pre-Disney EU made use of this by having Luke and Leia learn stuff about their parents through R2. This idea has been tossed aside now that the two droids have been sidelined in the ST.

 

As for your point, I disagree. I think if your father is widely known as a mass murderer who terrorized the galaxy as the right hand man of a ruthless dictator, you would want your son to know the truth. Why keep it from him and allow him to go on thinking Vader was everything everyone says? You would tell your son his grandfather was once a great Jedi who made some bad choices that cost him dearly so much so that the only way back for him was to sacrifice himself for his children. If Leia, Han and Luke felt it was better to try and keep Kylo in the dark about Vader, then they really are the idiot deadbeats the ST has shown them to be.

 

Oh, yes. Artoo! Still, I doubt that Artoo can convey to Luke and Leia the events of the prequels exactly as they were portrayed to the audience, particularly Anakin's internal conflict.

 

As for Leia, Han and Uncle Luke telling Ben about Anakin/Vader, I think you're ascribing too much rationality to characters that are more human than the fandom lets them be. I'm not a parent, but I know that in my family, as in many others, traumatic events aren't always shared with the children (no matter how old the children may be). I don't think it would be unrealistic to keep Ben in the dark (ha!) about his grandfather's life until he was ready. That's basically what Obi-wan did to Luke, and maybe Luke felt it was a good idea. Luke apparently molded much of his approach to Jedi life and training from Old Ben's teachings. Why wouldn't he pick up the "from a certain point of view" attitude, too?

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...she began to question the physics of a Lightsaber. Since light has no mass how does one wield the weapon and balance it enough to fight. She is 19 but only got into Star Wars with TFA. She also is a science nerd having studied physics, chemistry and the highest levels of mathematics available in high school and her first year of University (where she studied Mechanical Engineering ...

 

 

Though I'm not Tank, I think the general consensus in the fandom about lightsabers is that they are plasma-based bladed weapons, with the plasma of the blade contained in a magnetic field. This explains why they do not become infinitely long, and why they do not pass through other lightsabers. They are not literally "laser swords", and the blade is not completely massless.

 

 

 

Cool! I'll pass that on Thanks pavonis.

 

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As for Leia, Han and Uncle Luke telling Ben about Anakin/Vader, I think you're ascribing too much rationality to characters that are more human than the fandom lets them be. I'm not a parent, but I know that in my family, as in many others, traumatic events aren't always shared with the children (no matter how old the children may be). I don't think it would be unrealistic to keep Ben in the dark (ha!) about his grandfather's life until he was ready. That's basically what Obi-wan did to Luke, and maybe Luke felt it was a good idea. Luke apparently molded much of his approach to Jedi life and training from Old Ben's teachings. Why wouldn't he pick up the "from a certain point of view" attitude, too?

 

That works if it's just some family member everyone tries to pretend doesn't exist. You have that one screwed up uncle who no one wants around and everyone cringes when he shows up at parties, yeah I can see why the parents would want to keep the kid in the dark about that relative. But we are talking about Vader here. It would be like if Hitler had kids and those kids tried to keep their kids in the dark about him. He's in all history books, news sources, documentaries, films...not exactly someone you can pretend you don't know about him.

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It would be like if Hitler had kids and those kids tried to keep their kids in the dark about him.

I think that would be a good idea, actually. As I recall, the Hitler relatives did decide to end the family line, not just not talk to the kids about it, which tells you how much one man's actions emotionally scarred his relatives. And it's not like that kind of evil is genetic. I just can't see anyone within one generation of someone as evil as Vader being able to talk about his life and actions dispassionately. Maybe if Ben Solo had not strayed into the dark side, and eventually had children of his own, he may have been able to tell the tale of Anakin/Vader with some emotional distance, with the help of historical records. It would help that Ben hadn't ever met Anakin/Vader personally.

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It would be like if Hitler had kids and those kids tried to keep their kids in the dark about him.

I think that would be a good idea, actually. As I recall, the Hitler relatives did decide to end the family line, not just not talk to the kids about it, which tells you how much one man's actions emotionally scarred his relatives. And it's not like that kind of evil is genetic. I just can't see anyone within one generation of someone as evil as Vader being able to talk about his life and actions dispassionately. Maybe if Ben Solo had not strayed into the dark side, and eventually had children of his own, he may have been able to tell the tale of Anakin/Vader with some emotional distance, with the help of historical records. It would help that Ben hadn't ever met Anakin/Vader personally.

 

When you put it like that it makes me think this makes him psychotic. Continuing with the Hitler comparison, if Hitler had kids and those kids fought against him and in the end he sacrificed himself to save them, and then they had a son who decided: my parents and my uncle are nerds for stopping my grandfather, just think where the Third Reich could be now if they had joined him. That actually makes that grandkid worse, especially after he goes and kills his dad in cold blood. Anakin being redeemed is already flawed based on all we know. Kylo redeeming himself would be worse.

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So here's what I think about the family dynamics and why Vader took on such a mythological persona to be emulated by Kylo Ren.


To construct this view I am using just the OT, PT and ST movies. I have read a lot of the "Legends" EU but none of that comes into my analysis. I have only just begun to read the Aftermath novels which as I understand are considered new canon. 


 

The PT, OT and ST are first and foremost a family saga that with TLJ is transitioning to a wider exploration of the Star Wars Galaxy. After RoJ the Galaxy is in a state of upheaval. The Resistance may have won the war but the Empire still holds sway over many systems and many powerful money hungry types have a vested interest in keeping the Empirical system with all it's inherent corruption in a position of power. So it's going to be a hard struggle for the New Republic. 


In the meantime our OT heroes Luke and Leia are just coming to terms with the fact that their father, Darth Vader a Sith Lord, Darkside Force User and mass murderer is dead. In the end he came good and killed the Emperor but what do they really know about the man Anakin Skywalker? They know he was a Jedi Knight, a hero of the Clone Wars who was turned by Emperor Palpatine. They know what Yoda and Obi Wan told Luke and what Bail Organa would have told Leia. Yoda and Obi Wan kept a lot of info from Luke. They know how strong the lure of the Darkside is and that it can be extremely tempting to go down that path. They want Luke to stay focused on the "here and now". To always be looking to the future or dwelling on the past is a mistake in their minds. A mistake that started Anakin off on his fall to the Darkside when he went to save his mother and tried to ensure Padme's safety. That is why the Jedi order discouraged attachment. 


So would Leia and Luke know of Anakin's History. Not unless Obi wan or Yoda's force ghost told them the story. There was no one else in the time of the OT who knew these details. Bail Organa may have known some of it but he would have had a very negative view of the arrogant young Jedi Anakin Skywalker. An opinion only reinforced by Anakin's actions at the Jedi Temple in RotS. Leia grew up to know Vader as an evil Being. Bail would have kept the details from her. To discover that Being was her father would have been extremely traumatising and by that time Alderaan and her adopted family were gone along with any any historical documents or data relating to her real history. Yet she was Royalty and a Politician, like her Mother. She had to remain stoic and to think of the wider picture. She inherited Padme's ability to look beyond her self and to see she had a Duty. This is what led to Padme's fallout with Anakin and I believe that Duty is also why Leia and Han struggled to provide a loving stable family unit for Ben.

And so we have the time of ST. The 30 years of the New Republic have been chaotic. Remnants of the Empire, corrupt politicians and business entities made it hard for an idealistic Republic to thrive without the Jedi to keep the peace. Into this chaos somewhere comes Snoke a mysterious Darkside Force User who has been able to rise to control the New Order.

Leia has her Duty. People “believe” in Leia as the representative of all that is good and she spends her time fighting to keep the New Republic in a position of strength. Han is often sent off on missions and Luke spends his time studying the Jedi Order and setting up a new training temple. He takes on Ben but he is unable to counter the influence of Snoke who presents Vader as strong and powerful and of having kept Order in the Galaxy far better than the New Republic. He could very well have told Ben of Anakin’s heroic past, possibly knowing more than Luke and Leia. He would have talked up his power and the fact that it was Vader who killed Emperor Palpatine in the end, and if Vader hadn’t died as well, he would have been ruler of the Galaxy. Therefore it was Ben’s Destiny to “finish what vader had started” as the "Chosen One"and bring Order to the Galaxy. This would be a very tempting narrative, one that Padme, Luke and now Rey were able to resist but Anakin and Ben could not.

Even if Luke was telling Ben that Vader had turned back to the Lightside in the end, Snoke would have been able to present this as a fatal weakness and point to the turmoil that the Galaxy found itself in under the New Republic.

It’s not that Leia, Han and Luke kept things from Ben. It’s only that there were gaps in their knowledge that may have provided information to counter Snoke’s influence. If they knew that Anakin was an idealistic kid who went down the wrong path because he rightly feared for his Mother and then for his Wife. Who mistakenly saw the dark side as a way to save lives and maintain order. If they knew these things led to the creation of Vader they may altered their methods of parenting and Jedi training. It appears that Luke and Yoda have finally learnt from their mistakes and will allow Rey to find her own path away from the strict regulations imposed by the Jedi Order.

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rose should have just managed to push finn's ship out of the way and fly into the battering ram beam herself, destroying the ram and dying in the process.

 

it would have perfectly fit with the theme of "save the people you love, rather than destroy the thing you hate". it would have saved the resistance and would have contributed to finn's character arc.

Couldn't do that, since its pretty clear Kathleen Kennedy wanted to end any hope for a dreaded Finn/Rey romance, so in comes the underdeveloped, pointless Rose, who not only ruins Finn actually making a heroic stand (a near suicide run), but blurts out some nonexistent "love" which was not hinted at or established throughout the film. Its the most unnatural, no-one-wanted-to-see-this "relationship" (or start of one) in the franchise's history.

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The kiss was weird. I could take her meaning when she says love as "people we care about" or love between friends rather than romantic love but then she kisses him. Ofcourse it's not some like big climactic kiss either but it's also is on the lips. It's kinda weird.

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I liked Rose and was happy she saved Finn. Why does everyone have to keep sacrificing themselves? Anyway that was Luke's role in this film.

 

I want to see Rose develop more but I would have not included the kiss nor the little hint of a love triangle. Talking about saving the things we love should have been enough.

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...she began to question the physics of a Lightsaber. Since light has no mass how does one wield the weapon and balance it enough to fight. She is 19 but only got into Star Wars with TFA. She also is a science nerd having studied physics, chemistry and the highest levels of mathematics available in high school and her first year of University (where she studied Mechanical Engineering ...

 

 

 

Though I'm not Tank, I think the general consensus in the fandom about lightsabers is that they are plasma-based bladed weapons, with the plasma of the blade contained in a magnetic field. This explains why they do not become infinitely long, and why they do not pass through other lightsabers. They are not literally "laser swords", and the blade is not completely massless.

 

 

 

Cool! I'll pass that on Thanks pavonis.

Yeah, that answer works. My expertise is on the props, not the in-universe space magic. :)

 

Theres also no sound or fire explosions in space, soooooo....

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I liked Rose and was happy she saved Finn. Why does everyone have to keep sacrificing themselves? Anyway that was Luke's role in this film.

 

I want to see Rose develop more but I would have not included the kiss nor the little hint of a love triangle. Talking about saving the things we love should have been enough.

The kiss was to squash the Finn-Poe jack-it buddy theory.
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This is the part where I have to come in here and say that according to the novel Bloodline (which is excellent, btw), Luke and Leia did not tell anyone besides Han about Vader being Anakin, and that includes Ben. He did not grow up knowing Vader was his grandfather.

 

Now I'm going to leave the thread before Tank comes in here and tells me it doesn't matter.

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This is the part where I have to come in here and say that according to the novel Bloodline (which is excellent, btw), Luke and Leia did not tell anyone besides Han about Vader being Anakin, and that includes Ben. He did not grow up knowing Vader was his grandfather.

Now I'm going to leave the thread before Tank comes in here and tells me it doesn't matter.

In the grander scheme it does. It fills in the backsory (if you need it) of how the New Republic ran after the Battle of Endor. It also brings into question Snoke's role and influence in Ben Solo's life.
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This is the part where I have to come in here and say that according to the novel Bloodline (which is excellent, btw), Luke and Leia did not tell anyone besides Han about Vader being Anakin, and that includes Ben. He did not grow up knowing Vader was his grandfather.

Now I'm going to leave the thread before Tank comes in here and tells me it doesn't matter.

In the grander scheme it does. It fills in the backsory (if you need it) of how the New Republic ran after the Battle of Endor. It also brings into question Snoke's role and influence in Ben Solo's life.
I know it matters. But Tank has a pattern whenever I bring up a book or comic to answer a question. :p

 

A fellow senator of Leia's finds an old memory box of hers in storage (long story, royal houses and titles are involved). In the box is a recording from Bail Organa, explaining that Anakin Skywalker is Leia's biological father, and that he became Darth Vader.

 

That senator, Carise Sindian, tells another senator, Ransolm Casterfo, a former rival turned ally of Leia's. Casterfo hates Vader for helping destroy his homeworld and feels betrayed by Leia for lying to the galaxy. He reveals her secret in the middle of a public senate session. Leia is discredited and basically becomes a pariah. Luke and Ben are out of contact during this time, but Leia writes Ben a letter explaining everything. We have no idea what Ben's reaction is, or if he ever got that letter. At the end of the book, Leia begins the formal Resistance.

 

For the record, Ben is around 24 during the book. It's supposed to be six years before TFA.

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This is the part where I have to come in here and say that according to the novel Bloodline (which is excellent, btw), Luke and Leia did not tell anyone besides Han about Vader being Anakin, and that includes Ben. He did not grow up knowing Vader was his grandfather.

 

Now I'm going to leave the thread before Tank comes in here and tells me it doesn't matter.

When is that one set? Is it new canon? I'm going to read it right now...

 

Just bought it on Kindle. Laterz...

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This is the part where I have to come in here and say that according to the novel Bloodline (which is excellent, btw), Luke and Leia did not tell anyone besides Han about Vader being Anakin, and that includes Ben. He did not grow up knowing Vader was his grandfather.

 

Now I'm going to leave the thread before Tank comes in here and tells me it doesn't matter.

When is that one set? Is it new canon? I'm going to read it right now...

 

Just bought it on Kindle. Laterz...

Yes, if is!

 

Read Claudia Gray's other books, too. She's excellent.

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Guest El Chalupacabra

Ben looks alot younger than 24 in the flashbacks in TLJ, right? Or is that just me?

I thought he looked slightly younger, really. I know we are supposed to believe he is younger, though. If I had to pick a number, I'd say 10 years younger for both Ren and Luke. Kinda would help if we knew how old Ren is in TLJ. Going by Adam Driver's actual age, he's 34 now, so Ren is perhaps 30-ish? If the destruction of the temple was 10 years prior, that would put Ren at around 20, which would make sense considering both Anakin turned at about the same age (AOTC he was 20, and killed the sandpeople is about when he first started showing dark side signs), and we find Luke at about 19-20 in ANH.

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