The I've Seen The Last Jedi Thread (spoilers OBV)

[The Choc]

See, I've heard people say that but I just wonder where do they think the other thousands of Jedi throughout the centuries came from? None of them had Anakin as a parent and based on what we know none of them would even have other Jedi as parents. So it seems obvious that the Force doesn't have to be passed down genetically.

 

But moreso even apart from a nuts and bolts story standpoint its so much better to have the Force be magical again. Everyone hates midichlorians and rightly so. This takes away the science aspect of the Force and makes it magical again. It's much better.

[DANA-kin Skywalker]

Also, don't bombs fall in space in Empire when they are bombing the asteroids to find the Falcon? LOL. That may be it, the dumbest complain I've head. It;s ok for there to be explosions in space and sounds in space and ships to move in space in ways that are completely impossible but bombs falling!!! It's a disaster!!!

Yeah these complaints are minutiae. While true, Star Wars has already established the rules concerning this. It doesn't feel wrong in any way. Unfair nit-picks.

[The Choc]

See, I don't have any issue with people disliking the movie. I may disagree and explain what I do like, thats basically the point of a board like this. But stuff like that does drive me nuts. I realize that when you dont like something your mind goes to nit picking every little thing but stuff like that will just drive ya nuts.

[DANA-kin Skywalker]

I just remembered the map from TFA. So...who made this god damn map now?? Did Max Von Sydow make it himself? We know Luke didn't make it and stuff the rest inside Artoo along with an egg timer anymore.

[The Choc]

The map thing was always hazy. The map is stated as a map to Skywalker, I think for clarity, but it's actually a map to the First Temple where Luke is believed to be.

[Tex]

Well let's call this movie for what it is, Disney's attempt to pass the torch to the new characters that will help them turn a profit on their 4 billion dollar buyout. Getting the old cast back has been cool, but now that it's gone where do they go from here? Does anyone really give a shit about Finn? Poe is ok, but what else can you do with that guy? Have they built up Rey to be the new Luke that is universally loved?

 

I commend them for doing something with Kylo. Trying to do Darth Vader 2.0 is hard, and I like the way they've done Kylo so far, but can you really build a franchise on that character?

 

What they need is an ominous presence that permeates the film. Much like garlic and onions. You can smell it while you're cooking, you know it's there and you'll eventually taste it, but for now you'll just have to wait.

 

What are we waiting for now? Rey to beat Kylo? ok.

 

Sadly they will cash in. The prequels proved that. If you put a star was logo on a pound of my feces people will line up to watch me flush.

[The Choc]

How dare they attempt to create new characters people will want to see again? The nerve!

[Tex]

Good attempt. Bad execeution. Want a Rey toy? Your kids?

 

There's always Netflix.

 

Giants are doing well this year.

[Metropolis]

Also, don't bombs fall in space in Empire when they are bombing the asteroids to find the Falcon? LOL. That may be it, the dumbest complain I've head. It;s ok for there to be explosions in space and sounds in space and ships to move in space in ways that are completely impossible but bombs falling!!! It's a disaster!!!

What makes it awkward is the visual. In Empire the Tie Bombers "fire" the proton bombs onto the asteroid's surface. Watch it again. Those blasts are charged. Correct me if I'm wrong, but those cannonball like bombs just fall and don't detonate until they hit the Star Destroyer. Is it a nitpick? Sure, but i would have found it odd even if I liked the movie.

[The Choc]

Good attempt. Bad execeution. Want a Rey toy? Your kids?

 

There's always Netflix.

 

Giants are doing well this year.

If you dont like it, thats a different thing than you seemed to be saying in your post. Maybe I read it wrong.

[The Choc]

 

Also, don't bombs fall in space in Empire when they are bombing the asteroids to find the Falcon? LOL. That may be it, the dumbest complain I've head. It;s ok for there to be explosions in space and sounds in space and ships to move in space in ways that are completely impossible but bombs falling!!! It's a disaster!!!

What makes it awkward is the visual. In Empire the Tie Bombers "fire" the proton bombs onto the asteroid's surface. Watch it again. Those blasts are charged. Correct me if I'm wrong, but those cannonball like bombs just fall and don't detonate until they hit the Star Destroyer. Is it a nitpick? Sure, but i would have found it odd even if I liked the movie.

 

But the laws of space never apply in Star Wars. There should be no fire in space, no sound. Ships should not be able to move the way they do. People stand in landing bays of ships with the vacuum of space right in front of them. It just seems an odd thing to think about. Star Wars has never even attempted to follow laws of physics. Why should it now?

[Tex]

Steaming pile of shit, this movie was. Feel free to comment.

[Metropolis]

It is the visual. I know that physics don't apply. Same sequence, the bridge for Leia's ship gets blown up and huge chunks of metal are floating through space. So why don't they fall? I don't actually care about any of that, but it catches your eye sometimes. Just like why does one of Snoke's guards use Ivy's(from Soul Calibur) sword? It didn't affect my enjoy mentioned of the movie, but Torch brought it up.

[Guest Robin]

The bombs didnt really annoy me, I just had a giggle about it when it happened and that particular post was all about snark.

 

The Empire bombs are propelled though, if memory serves. All the TLJ bombs needed was an effect to indicate some push or launching that would propel them to a moving target, then I would never have given them another thought.

[Tank]

This is a very good Twitter thread about Luke in The Last Jedi. Changed my mind about several things. https://twitter.com/waltdwilliams/status/942199926787858432

This is more or less what I was saying, just less in-depth.

 

I think having Luke ignite the saber was the way to go. I always felt from the OT that Obi Wans apparent guilt is just misplaced. He seems to feel this guilt about Anakin but he really didn't do anything wrong. It's more of a generic "I wasn't a good enough master" type thing. Luke actually did something shameful that warrants his guilt and isolation.

I hate to say it-- but it is a movie, a visual medium. "Show don;t tell" is the #1 rule of screenwriting, (one the PT broken constantly). We were hearing the story from Kylo or Luke either time already, so I think the added button of seeing the saber ignite serves as a short to how dramatic things were. Without it, I think the scene wouldn't be as poignant.

 

Whats funny to me is that last thing you said. I never thought we'd get any backstory on Snoke and said that on here all the time and I thought Reys parentage would be straightforward. People build these things up in their minds when in fact in alot of ways they aren't mysteries at all. Snoke is not set up as a mystery at all, it's not like characters are saying "we need to know more about Snoke". You built that up in your own mind, from the start I said "Snoke is there for Kylo to kill and take his place."

While I would have like to learned about some background about Snoke, I guess it doesn't matter that much. It makes me wonder if I am more critical when viewing these movies as an adult then when I watched the OT as a kid. For example, when I watched ESB in 1980 or ROTJ in 1983, I didn't really know anything about the Emperor other than he was a bad dude and the boss of Darth Vader. It was only when we got the PT that we got some backstory about Palpatine, but there was no backstory in the OT.

I think the difference is, when the OT came out, we knew there was a backstory, and we got the little bits of it that were pertinent. It wasn't as important to the NOW of the films.

 

The difference with Snoke is, TFA wasn't starting from zero, it was building off of ROTJ. It is an explicit plot point that by the end of ROTJ, Luke is it as far as Force-users, light or dark go. When we get a new proto-Palpatine, I think a little explanation is needed.

 

Like I said in the Episode 9 wishlist thread, it only needs to be a couple lines. Kylo can say "I heard this voice in my head all my life, I followed it and find Snoke imprisoned in carbonite, left there by the Jedi a century ago."

 

Or as Shadowdog suggested, he was some lowly, hidden away Sith adept that suddenly found himself with all this power.

 

I don;t think time needs to be spent on it, but important things hang on it, so it should get some sort of resolution.

 

 

One thing I thought of in regard to Rey's parentage...has anyone stopped to think that the 'vision' of who her parents were was placed there by Snoke? He already admitted planting the other visions. Maybe he felt Rey's origin was worth hiding. I still think there's something there. If there's not, meh. So what.

Nah. They closed it out. Anything else would be an unneeded complication at this point.

 

 

The map thing was always hazy. The map is stated as a map to Skywalker, I think for clarity, but it's actually a map to the First Temple where Luke is believed to be.

I'll do one better-- why did R2 have a piece, and how did he get back to the resistance?

 

I think Luke was looking for the last Jedi temple, he figured it out and had his trusty navigator R2 plot him a course-- then he told R2 to wipe that part of his memory and made the journey alone. R2 went into semi-senile mode due to the wipe.

 

In the mean time, Leia tasked Ma Von Sydow with tracking Luke based on the same research Luke was doing, and he figured it out for the most part. When R2 saw the map, he was able to get a fragmented piece out to complete it. SO Luke had no idea that anyone could find him.

 

 

 

Also, don't bombs fall in space in Empire when they are bombing the asteroids to find the Falcon? LOL. That may be it, the dumbest complain I've head. It;s ok for there to be explosions in space and sounds in space and ships to move in space in ways that are completely impossible but bombs falling!!! It's a disaster!!!

What makes it awkward is the visual. In Empire the Tie Bombers "fire" the proton bombs onto the asteroid's surface. Watch it again. Those blasts are charged. Correct me if I'm wrong, but those cannonball like bombs just fall and don't detonate until they hit the Star Destroyer. Is it a nitpick? Sure, but i would have found it odd even if I liked the movie.

 

But the laws of space never apply in Star Wars. There should be no fire in space, no sound. Ships should not be able to move the way they do. People stand in landing bays of ships with the vacuum of space right in front of them. It just seems an odd thing to think about. Star Wars has never even attempted to follow laws of physics. Why should it now?

 

It is the visual. I know that physics don't apply. Same sequence, the bridge for Leia's ship gets blown up and huge chunks of metal are floating through space. So why don't they fall? I don't actually care about any of that, but it catches your eye sometimes. Just like why does one of Snoke's guards use Ivy's(from Soul Calibur) sword? It didn't affect my enjoy mentioned of the movie, but Torch brought it up.

I don't require hard science in Star Wars-- but I do require consistency where the rules are broken.

 

Again, don't tell me the First Order can't catch up to the Rebel ship, but then show two other instances of precision jumps into the same area.

[Darth Wicket]

I may have missed this when watching TLJ, but was it ever brought up why Luke was looking for the first Jedi temple? It seems odd that he would go looking for it only to disconnect himself from the Force. Was he initially looking to learn more about the Force? If he became that disillusioned with the Jedi and thought they should end, why didn't he destroy the books before? Couldn't bring himself to do it?

[Tank]

...

 

...yes?

 

I think it was his whole "the Jedi need to die" thing. He wanted to find the root of the faith, and die with it.

[The Choc]

I'll agree, I don't like the idea of what hyper space has become in terms of ships just showing up out of nowhere out of nowhere and then just going away again. It's become nearly a cheat to just insert any character to any location at any time. I don't like that. I really like this movie but I can criticize parts of it. I don't like that aspect of it.

 

When you watch Star Wars it feels like when they travel to Alderaan, or the remains of it, that even at hyperspace a good amount of time passes. In TLJ it feels almost instantaneous. I'm not one to complain that every single thing has to conform to what happened in 1977, not even close, but this is one thing I don't like. And it's not a TLJ problem, its something that has developed over time in the movies. It's basically the same thing in Rogue One where Imperials show up from across the Galaxy in minutes and Alliance ships do as well right in the middle of the same battle.

 

It's one of those things where over time hyperspace has become more and more of a quick plot device and now has come down to almost just being a character can appear any place at any time. Like I said though it seems more of a saga problem that has developed over time rather than something I can throw at the feet of Johnson or TLJ.

[The Choc]

And yeah, there probably should have been a twist or turn during the chase. Why not have them find a hiding spot for a short time of it and then be found again? Just somehting quick like that would have helped. Maybe even Finn and Rose leaving is what allows the First Order to refind the Resistance?

 

I think sometimes some of us, myself included, just want to seem right. If we like the movie we just defend every little thing, if we don't we just hate every little thing. And because of the net and how arguments go, even if you start somewhere in the middle you end up pulled to one side or the other. Basically if you start thinking "yeah that was ok, I liked it but wasnt quite what I wanted" it's very easy to go online and see other peoples complaints and be like "yeah, i didn't think of that, thats right, so thats!, that was dumb too!" and just get pulled into hating the movie and arguing against every single aspect of the movie. Even the thinggs you did like about it originally.

 

Conversely someone like me the opposite can happen. Things I didn't like about the movie I end up defending against people who are to me overly negative. We just I think at first broadly get put into "positive" or "negative" camps and from there we just get pulled in either direction more and more until the positive people think the negative are just morons who nitpick every detail and the negatives think the positives are just idiots who would like anything.

 

I'm not saying the movie is perfect but when I see people complain that the ship wasn't towed on Canto Bight I just shake my head. Hell maybe the tow company was on another job! LOL

[captainbleh]

That's pretty much my take on it (see my first post in this thread). After bad experiences with letting things I don't like pull me out of movies instead of skipping over them, I've learnt to ignore the things I don't like and focus on the things I do. I'll get round to the things I don't like eventually (I appreciated the intensity / sacrifice of it, but so much of the attack on the dreadnought made me itch), but I'm still thinking about how gutsy the milking scene was.

[Tank]

And yeah, there probably should have been a twist or turn during the chase. Why not have them find a hiding spot for a short time of it and then be found again? Just somehting quick like that would have helped. Maybe even Finn and Rose leaving is what allows the First Order to refind the Resistance?

You could literally have all the same plot points sans the pointless not-chase.

 

Ships escape in hyperspace, drop out short of Crait because one ship is damaged and the hyperdrive is failing. The realize the First Order is tracking them. They haul ass during the Kylo fighter attack for a nebula or asteroid field.

 

All the ships make it in, Leia does her almost die, Kylo is pushed back. They now hide while the Firs Order searches them out, all the while running out of AIR instead of fuel due to damage.

 

Finn and Rose can go on the same mission, knowing where the fleet is hiding.

 

Literally the same beats. It actually helps Rey and Finn/Rose get to the First Order because it makes sense. The mission fails, and the fleet makes a break for it.

 

Exact same story beats.

[Guest Robin]

Salt World could have been the Alamo or Zulu. Removing the chase entirely. That story element warrants the next day after effects, the next battle of attrition. That in itself ties in with the never ending battle of good and evil. The struggle to maintain the right path in face of opposition. etc. Plus its a reverse failure of Empire, the rebels got away, this time they are cornered and stuck on Salt Hoth.

 

Kylo doesnt fire on Leia, but neither do the other Ties. Leia gives the small fleet cruisers time to escape, piloting the fleet command cruiser with the Force... size matters not. This is the massive end of the opening act. Leias sacrifice, her breathtaking display of force ability, the hand off of leadership, the conflict from Kylo and plus now he witnesses his mother give herself for the others.

 

Everything rebel/empire happens on the Salt World, Rose/Fin, Poe becoming the leader. The side is Luke/Rey and Astral Kylo.

 

Tighten the story, focus on the horror of maintaining that foothold until help arrives. Leia goes out like the badass, Luke follows later. The rebels survived but at such a cost.

[The Choc]

They didn't know Fisher was going to die though. Kylo not firing on her is not window dressing. She is obviously still and was meant to be the one thing tethering him to the light. Maybe would have been a huge role for Leia in that regard for IX. There is no way to know. I think it's hard to criticize the handling of Leia because we don't know what the plan was.

[The Choc]

I actually like Robin's idea of a Alamo type thing on Crait. They get there and and close that door. The First Order lands and starts a barrage. Leia or Holdo preach patience but Poe is basically like "that door won't hold forever". He orders some sort of crazy, miracle attack on the First Order. It fails miserably. Then they are back inside the base but with alot less people.

 

That would have worked. I guess I just try to not look at every thing that happens and think "they could have done this different..." Drive myself crazy doing that. Im more apt to that when the movie has settled more rather than when it's new.

 

It's alot easier to sit and eat and a meal and say "hmm, needs more salt" rather than to actually cook the meal.

[Guest Robin]

The seduction to rewrite is as strong as the Dark Side. XD

 

Re: not knowing Carrie was going to die.

 

Totally true, but I have always operated under the push to kill Leia in these films so I was not thinking of offing her because Carrie died, I just like the moment for that character.