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With Justice League Floundering, Will DC Finally Rethink Their Shared Extended Universe?


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#51
Metropolis

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It's not the act. It the message and how it's handled. The virtue signaling turns people off because it seems forced.

You can cast Sam Jackson in the role of a white guy and not be questioned because it's Sam Jackson. Doesn't need explanation. You can cast Tessa Thompson in the role of Valkyrie and not be questioned because it's a character only know by comic book fans. Doesn't need explanation. Then you come out and tell everyone that the character was suppose to be lesbian. Now you have people asking good Lord why? Because the Valkyrie were all female? Is it important to the story or are you just pandering to a group to get ticket sales?

If you're going to be "fair" then do it. I don't care. You're not MLK for doing it though. We should have been at this point long ago.

You're are right though that this becomes a big topic when recasting for race. Though it's mostly for the Big roles. You're in the business Tank. Do you believe that if Cavill doesn't re sign that Warner Brothers is willing to recast now with a person of color and take that risk? Recasting the role in general would be a risk which is why I believe that if he doesn't come back Superman will be on the shelf for a while. Because right or wrong studio execs could give ab**** if they don't recoup their money. Warner Brothers isn't in the position to take a risk that Disney could.

#52
Tank

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What's the worst thing that is going to happen?

 
A former symbol of unity becoming yet another symbol of divisiveness and exclusion.  An increase in the tribalism that is marking today's American society that fosters growing racial stratification and extremism.


None of that makes any sense. Diversity in representation is the exact opposite of everything you are saying.

Alos, you're literally describing how the world is for anybody that isn't a middle class or above white dude.

I read this thing recently about how people will always find an act of change as exclusion if it is giving equal representation or rights to somebody else. They see somebody else getting what they already have not as equality, but as it somehow being taken away from them. (Again, se 90 years worth of Superman material vs. one movie).



It's not the act. It the message and how it's handled. The virtue signaling turns people off because it seems forced.

You can cast Sam Jackson in the role of a white guy and not be questioned because it's Sam Jackson. Doesn't need explanation. You can cast Tessa Thompson in the role of Valkyrie and not be questioned because it's a character only know by comic book fans. Doesn't need explanation. Then you come out and tell everyone that the character was suppose to be lesbian. Now you have people asking good Lord why? Because the Valkyrie were all female? Is it important to the story or are you just pandering to a group to get ticket sales?

If you're going to be "fair" then do it. I don't care. You're not MLK for doing it though. We should have been at this point long ago.


The problem is, virtual signaling is a fallible argument because it's based on personal perception. What bothers YOU is not what bothers somebody else. Nick Fury is a great example. People absolutely lost their mind over Nick Fury being recast as black... but it didn't happen with Iron Man. It happened with The Ultimates comic book. And the ones freaking out-- old comic books fans who always fear change.

It was the same argument then (in 2000) that we are having right now. But it leveled out and by the time Iron Man was made, the general non-comic book population didn't know the difference and therefor didn't care.

What you are basically saying is "I don't like how they are posturing, so this thing they are doing is BAD." I hear you on the pomp and circumstance, but that doesn't invalidate what is being done.

UGH, I MEAN, JUST GO TO MARS. STOP TELLING US HOW IT'S GOING TO CHARGE OUR LIFE IF YOU GO TO MARS AND JUST GO ALREADY. That sounds silly.

I really think that because of what I said to Poe above, whether there was virtue signaling or not, there will always be angry voices over this sort fo thing. At least the virtue signaling offers up equal noise to combat it.

You're are right though that this becomes a big topic when recasting for race. Though it's mostly for the Big roles. You're in the business Tank. Do you believe that if Cavill doesn't re sign that Warner Brothers is willing to recast now with a person of color and take that risk? Recasting the role in general would be a risk which is why I believe that if he doesn't come back Superman will be on the shelf for a while. Because right or wrong studio execs could give ab**** if they don't recoup their money. Warner Brothers isn't in the position to take a risk that Disney could.


It could go either way to be honest. Playing it safe is what studios do, but some studios are desperate to lead the charge for change (so they can cash in on it). When they look at Jordan, all they see are Black Panther's returns versus Justice Leagues. There's also a lot of incentives within the industry for diversity hires. I've not gotten staff jobs because the white guy quotient was full and they needed a diversity hire. It sucks, but at the same time, I have to acknowledge I'm in a system that benefitted me for 100 years.

In my heart of hearts, I don't think there will be a black Superman movie. If there is, what they will play safe is the WHY. It won't be Hal-El from Smallville by way of Krypton. It'll be a hand off in some way.

#53
Poe Dameron

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None of that makes any sense. Diversity in representation is the exact opposite of everything you are saying.

 

Not inherently exclusionary, but when combined with blatant double standards, forgetting that two wrongs don't make a right, belittling of complaints because white, and implications of racism if a person doesn't fall into line then yeah, you're excluding people.

 

You can cast Sam Jackson in the role of a white guy and not be questioned because it's Sam Jackson. Doesn't need explanation.

 

They cast Sam Jackson because he is literally the model for the very popular Ultimate variant of Nick Fury.  The following panel was released in June 2002 (The Ultimates #4), about six years before Jackson showed up in the end credit scenes of Iron Man.

 

ultimates_fury_huge.jpg



#54
Metropolis

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I haven't followed comics regularly since I was in college ('93-'96). I mostly follow the DC animated universe. I thought the "new" Nick Fury was a reaction to Sam Jackson.

#55
Tank

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Not inherently exclusionary, but when combined with blatant double standards, forgetting that two wrongs don't make a right, belittling of complaints because white, and implications of racism if a person doesn't fall into line then yeah, you're excluding people.


No argument from me that this obviously gets politicized, but just like I'm saying to get. That doesn't make the act wrong, just because some people over-react to the message.

I feel like you're over-thinking it and assuming the worst because you don't like it.

When I hear "Black Superman," I think: "Oh, now people will see that anyone can be Superman."

You hear "Black Superman," and you think "Oh, they're saying Superman can only be Black now and if I don't like it, I'm racist."

I'm really curious why you go there, and why you're convinced the intent is automatically flawed and that the Republic is doomed.

#56
El Chalupacabra

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Considering there WERE black Supermen in the comics before (they were from alternate universes, and not main characters, though) it wouldn't bother me if a black actor were cast as Superman.  But I am  not a fan of the DCEU, so I couldn't care any less what they do for the next Superman movie.  That all said, this is much ado about nothing because I doubt WB will just cast a black actor as Superman...at least in the current DCEU continuity, just to be woke or whatnot and not with a good explanation (EG he's from another universe or timeline).

 

 

But outside of being controversial for controversy's sake, there is not really a compelling reason to change Superman's ethnicity, in comics or on screen. A black Superman would be criticized by both sides (long time fans wouldn't accept it, and then there would be people not happy saying it was just a publicity stunt and doesn't go far enough to promote black actors).  I think it is better to either create a new character or promote another existing character that IS non white (EG Cyborg, Black Panther, BLade are great examples) or not really defined (Martian Manhunter!  He gets no love, and is arguably more powerful than Supes), and promote that character and cast a black actor for the movie version.



#57
Poe Dameron

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I haven't followed comics regularly since I was in college ('93-'96). I mostly follow the DC animated universe. I thought the "new" Nick Fury was a reaction to Sam Jackson.

 

Well, I'm sure the movies made it an easier decision to retire the old Nick Fury since audiences are much more familiar with the Sam Jackson model by now.

 

But it's fair to say that casting Jackson was the biggest casting no-brainer of the MCU and at the very top of fanboy wish lists for all of comics, surpassed only by the demand for Patrick Stewart as Xavier.  I think everyone who followed the comics had their eyes light up when he made his surprise cameo in Iron Man.

 

You hear "Black Superman," and you think "Oh, they're saying Superman can only be Black now and if I don't like it, I'm racist."

 

I don't think it means that Superman can only be black.  But things like hearing about the "I'm not a racist but," dismissal would assume bad faith about a character where 15 years ago people were losing their heads over a Brit playing the role.

 

I'm really curious why you go there, and why you're convinced the intent is automatically flawed and that the Republic is doomed.

 

To simplify, I see the outcome of your worldview as increasing and cementing people's awareness in their skin color and sex as not just an aspect of their identity, but an intrinsic character trait.  "I'm supposed to like/dislike this thing because I'm ____."  "____ is made better because now it has someone who looks like me."

 

To me, the less aware a person is of their tribe from moment to moment, the better it is for everyone around.  It allows for unique, independent thought.  It cuts down on group think.  It further cuts down on racism because the tension with outgroups is a lot less a threat to an individual than to a tribe.  It cuts down on racism as a central aspect of life in general because much of racism (particularly in modern implicit racism times) comes down to how you think others see you.  If you see yourself as a set of characteristics first, then you're more likely to think that other people are also also basing their interactions on you based on those characteristics.

 

That may be defined as "white privilege" to some, but I think instead of trying to strip it from those who have it, creating new waves of racial tensions in the process as white people are pushed into their tribes out of spite and everyone reaping the negatives of that, we should be looking for ways to try and expand it outwards to everyone.

 

Anyway, more than I really wanted to get into it.  But a black Superman in particular would be a step towards a more racial-centric society.  Obviously not enough to make the republic fall, but yet another step down the wrong path that we've been headed basically since 2006.



#58
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Sorry, but you don't get to be the anti-culture czar when yours isn't the one that's been marginalized for most of our country's history. You're correct, that is white privileged.

Tribalism and cutrural awareness and pride are not mutually exclusive.

At least you said 2006 instead of 2008 I guess.

#59
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I'd wonder if Poe knows that the "melting pot" "I don't see color" method of "multiculturalism" that we all tried on for size in the 80's and 90's ended up being horribly detrimental to all involved but especially minorities because it was a superficial veneer put over systematic racial injustice that actually exacerbated racism... but it's pretty clear he doesn't.

 

This has been a fun thought experiment and all, but if you search news on Michael B. Jordan, while entertainment sources are talking Superman, he's talking Creed 2... I haven't seen him say a single word about joining the DCCU in any capacity. Which could be an NDA, and could be that this is all wild speculation. I'm having a hard time seeing Marvel let him go considering he was the breakout star of one of their hottest properties to date.



#60
Poe Dameron

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Sorry, but you don't get to be the anti-culture czar when yours isn't the one that's been marginalized for most of our country's history. You're correct, that is white privileged.

 

And we're back to exclusion again.  Allowing a thoughtful voice is not white privilege.  But really, I don't believe it has anything to do with white at all.  I believe it's a groupthink problem as seen from the much worse ostracization that a minority receives for straying from the conventional wisdom.

 

I said nothing about being anti-culture.  And I certainly did not declare myself czar of anything.  I'm more dismayed by everyone stampeding into a dark future than I entertain any notion that I'm in charge of anything.

 

At least you said 2006 instead of 2008 I guess.

 

2006 was the year of comprehensive immigration reform under Bush.  I mark that as the beginning of systematic attempts to turn all groups into voting blocs by making those group characteristics central to their identity.  But yes, Obama made that the central pillar of his longterm political strategy and Trump has taken up the project from the opposite side.

 

I'd wonder if Poe knows that the "melting pot" "I don't see color" method of "multiculturalism" that we all tried on for size in the 80's and 90's ended up being horribly detrimental to all involved but especially minorities because it was a superficial veneer put over systematic racial injustice that actually exacerbated racism...

 

You're correct, I wasn't aware that the 80s and 90s had worse racial problems than the 60s and 70s.



#61
OB Tampon Karaoke

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Interesting reading I see both side of the argument have things I agree with.



#62
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Reading this, I see another movie thread being hijacked for the same tired old argument that comes up every time there's a casting decision that someone doesn't like.

In this case, it's not even a casting decision so much as a rumor that discussions may be happening about a potential casting decision.

And I think we can all agree that Michael B Jordan has the right color hair, which is always the biggest concern. Right, Torchie?
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#63
Metropolis

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My only problem with Michael B Jordan for the role is that I think Superman should be taller than Wonder Woman.

#64
Iceheart

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I'd wonder if Poe knows that the "melting pot" "I don't see color" method of "multiculturalism" that we all tried on for size in the 80's and 90's ended up being horribly detrimental to all involved but especially minorities because it was a superficial veneer put over systematic racial injustice that actually exacerbated racism...

 

You're correct, I wasn't aware that the 80s and 90s had worse racial problems than the 60s and 70s.

 

 

Absolutely not what I said and you know it, but nice try.

 

 

My only problem with Michael B Jordan for the role is that I think Superman should be taller than Wonder Woman.

 

How tall is Jordan? Gal Gadot is 6', I thought Jordan was like 6'1" or 6'2"?

 

I mean, by that criteria Krawlie is hands down the best choice for the role. 



#65
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You said it exacerbated racism. Maybe you meant to use a different word, if it didn't actually make things worse?

#66
Metropolis

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You can't go by listed heights. If so then Tom Cruise is really 5'7".

In a stand alone movie you can get away with it, but you put all of them together your see the difference. Cavill wasn't that much taller than Gadot in those WW boots.

Also I think Amy Adams was a great new version of Lois Lane. Warner Brothers made a huge mistake by not expanding on the character and her relationship with Superman by not doing a Man of Steel 2 before Batman V Superman.

#67
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Brando, you're right, that wasn't the right word. Um... mutated? Obfuscated? What's a good single word that means "we'll just focus on skin color and not on systematic racism, so when people point to things like policing minorities harsher and with deadlier force than whites everyone can wave their hands and say 'oh, but we don't see color! Clearly, you just have problems in your community.'"

 

The general concensus I've seen from minority communities is that they want everyone to "see color," because race is a huge, huge thing in our society and always has been, and we have not dealt with it well at all. We've tried ignoring the problem, and it did not go away.

 

Besides, if we're not supposed to acknowledge racial and cultural differences, what does it matter what color Superman's skin is? We don't see color, only the Kryptonian underneath the skin! So, clearly, given the utter **** flipping in this thread alone over a proposed Black Superman, looking past our differences and just getting along is not working. We have to figure out how to have some hard, meaningful national conversations. And I do think the right piece of zeitgeist media would help toward that. It's so too bad that Superman has been so distanced from his origins, this was literally the conversation he was invented for.

 

Met, dangit, now I'm hoping Gadot and Jordan meet at an awards show or something so that I can see them standing next to each other.

 

And I agree about Amy Adams as Lois Lane. It was a very different take, but one that worked.



#68
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Sorry, but you don't get to be the anti-culture czar when yours isn't the one that's been marginalized for most of our country's history. You're correct, that is white privileged.

 
And we're back to exclusion again.  Allowing a thoughtful voice is not white privilege.  But really, I don't believe it has anything to do with white at all.  I believe it's a groupthink problem as seen from the much worse ostracization that a minority receives for straying from the conventional wisdom.
 
I said nothing about being anti-culture.  And I certainly did not declare myself czar of anything.  I'm more dismayed by everyone stampeding into a dark future than I entertain any notion that I'm in charge of anything.
 
 
 

At least you said 2006 instead of 2008 I guess.

 
2006 was the year of comprehensive immigration reform under Bush.  I mark that as the beginning of systematic attempts to turn all groups into voting blocs by making those group characteristics central to their identity.  But yes, Obama made that the central pillar of his longterm political strategy and Trump has taken up the project from the opposite side.
 
 
 

I'd wonder if Poe knows that the "melting pot" "I don't see color" method of "multiculturalism" that we all tried on for size in the 80's and 90's ended up being horribly detrimental to all involved but especially minorities because it was a superficial veneer put over systematic racial injustice that actually exacerbated racism...

 
You're correct, I wasn't aware that the 80s and 90s had worse racial problems than the 60s and 70s.


We're talking about Superman, not Bizzaro. So stop talking like this is the Bizarro universe.

LITERALLY everything you say is the opposite of the reality and intent behind diversity championing.

#69
Metropolis

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And I agree about Amy Adams as Lois Lane. It was a very different take, but one that worked.

That's because she is neither the Margot Kidder damsel in distress (except in BVS I know), nor the bitch she portrays in the animated universe.

So earlier I watched the first Toby Spider-Man and I realized that Joe Manganiello plays Flash. I pictured him watching Homecoming and thinking "so they got some tough nerd Indian guy to play me?"
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#70
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re: MBJ

I think he is great, but I also think he could be too known. Superman castings have usually gone to lesser-knowns or unknowns.

Re: Clark / Kal

Nothing in his background demands any consideration in regards to skin color.

Re: Kryptonians

I have often thought they shouldnt even been human like. Maybe energy octo-jellies squishies or something (energy wise that leads into how Supes can go electric-Superman when he gets too charged up). So then the birthing-escape pod is a genetic sequencer which samples the opener and adapts the occupant. Not that Kryptonians would be shapeshifters, thats DCs Martians, this process would lock in at birth. Play with the in his image thing, perhaps meaning thoughts, emotions, spirit, heart etc.... Clark is Kryptonian even though he looks human. You then could have dastardly Kryptonians like Zod who think this method of space exploration or whatever is an abomination and thus this ups the racial purity insanity on his end.

Re: The Kents

The Kents can be anyone and thus Clark too, and now there would be a machination in the lore that layers that. Similar to how Doctor Who can be anyone via regenerations.

I dunno who could be a good new Supes, but I would be happy to see actors like Andy Garcia and Vanessa Williams portray the Kents. Let them be their age too.

#71
Metropolis

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SMH. Can't even have Superman be 100% black? Gotta be mixed.

#72
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Im not sure if youre joking, if youre actually going there, but that wasnt my intention at all.

Side Note: Elsewhere I have suggested other actors for the Kents. Danny Glover, Angela Bassett, Ming-Na Wen, Robert Redford...

#73
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Joking

#74
Robin

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Its getting hard to tell these days, not saying in regards to you specifically. :-) :thumbsup:

#75
Fozzie

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Just remember that Driver is never serious, especially about social issues.

:wink:
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