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You’re Rian Johnson... now what?

Tarss

245 replies to this topic

#51
The Choc

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See I think you are hedging your bet though. Originally you said someone who fell to the darkside, now you are saying someone who just doesn't follow all the Jedi rules. Those are 2 different things. The idea of someone who is actually evil but also hates the Sith is very interesting to me, while the idea that someone just broke from the Jedi but is still a good guy is less so. 

 

I think the key is how far could you have this guy go where people would still root for him. Could you have him willfully kill innocents in pursuit of his goals? Probably not. I actually love the idea of a character like this but I kinda like it as a secondary character. Maybe the 2nd or 3rd most important in the trilogy. Sort of like a cooler, more developed, more active Saw Guerrera. He's on the right side technically but his methods are so questionable you can't like him. 



#52
DANA-kin Skywalker

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I just don't think my dude should be an out of control serial killer. He's a murderer, assassin, con-artist, all that good stuff, but you can't have a coherent plot with the main character decapitating people just because he wants to stick his fingers inside the neck-hole. He has to have at least enough control to channel his bloodlust towards his ultimate goal. He also needs to be street-smart in a Han Solo-esque way.

My underlying point for the story was it took a dark Jedi to accomplish what the good Jedi couldn't. A Jedi (technically, anyways) who is better at being a Sith than the Sith themselves.

#53
Odine

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Thing is... If the story is centered and focussed on some bad guy we are going to be sympathetic to him/her by virtue that they are the protagonist irrespective of their morality (or lack thereof).
Also "evil" characters can have a huge amount of depth and ethical nuance... If they are portrayed more sophisticatedly than a one dimensional murdering psychopath, or petulant edgelord. And nuance doesn't have to come from an evil character's struggle with morality (ala kylo ren) and "falling" to the light. They can be written to be sympathetic characters, relatable and engaging if done right. Hate to source the EU as reference but Bane and Revan are examples of this being done relatively well and compellingly. I'd love to see a trilogy/story centered on a chatacter such as this.

Edited by Odine, 22 November 2017 - 03:09 AM.


#54
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For instance it'd be interesting if the "hero" (weird choice of word) was to follow the dark path (as opposed to light) and we are shown dark side training.. Utilising raw emotion, anger etc.. For strength...and woe unto those that would stand in his/her way.
Something that slightly mirrors Luke's or anakins training but fully embedded in the dark from the get-go.

The "antagonist" could be a lightside user.. Or maybe sith... But someone or thing philosophically apposed. If it were a light side user they could just be presented to us as a somewhat irritating do-gooder, pious and sanctimonious. That we know has the ethical "high ground" but God damnit we can't stand them. And so we root for the "evil" character.

OR we get a light side character "antagonist" who is equally as compelling and relatable. And the trilogy's purpose is to make us conflicted.. To feel the very thing that force users are supposed to be wary of. (I suspect this was what they are shooting for with the ST but not sure they are hitting the mark).
How it all pans out remains to be seen and I've not really thought that far ahead.

Edited by Odine, 22 November 2017 - 03:30 AM.


#55
Tank

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Funny how these are all Jedi/Force centric.

#56
Odine

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Cause the force ****ing rules.

 

Plus I figured.. the stand alone 'star wars story' films could tackle the non force stuff. Like a Boba Fett movie, or a Courusant underworld movie... Infiltration Jabbas Palace.. etc...


Edited by Odine, 22 November 2017 - 04:12 AM.


#57
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Star Wars fast and the furious?? That'd make a killing with 14 year old boys



#58
DANA-kin Skywalker

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Now THIS is pod racing
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#59
captainbleh

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I'm not really in to the Force (I'd cosplay as a pilot instead of a Jedi), but I think I'd struggle with a SW movie where it wasn't involved at all.

 

I like Robin's idea of something involving people becoming Force sensitive, but having to work out how to deal with it on their own.

 

Or a Seven Samurai > Magnificent Seven > Battle Beyond the Stars (a SW movie that is a remake of a SW clone, heh) thing with Force sensitives (vs an evil one / group), with a mix of experienced and novice ones (as the first part of the trilogy anyway).


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#60
The Choc

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I think something you guys are missing with this whole anti hero as a protagonist is that kids need to identify and love this character. You want kids to run around their backyard pretending to be your main character. That doesn't mean your main character has to be Mr Rogers but I do think it means it can't be Walter White.


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#61
Odine

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Yeah.. but if I was Rian Johnson (like the thread title suggests) I wouldn't be making Star Wars for young kids. Teens at best. 

 

But then, I probably wouldn't get very far with a plan like that.



#62
D-Ray Kenobi

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I've got three different elevator pitches:

Birth of the Jedi - This would deal with the very beginning of religion in a very early Star Wars universe that would be in their version of the Industrial Revolution, with none of the same technology present.  The first episode would deal with a Cain and Abel type feud with two brothers that would become the Jedi and Sith.  Each would bring along cult members, build temples, and then destroy one another in the last episode.

Lost Galaxy - A ship full of explorers is tired of the drama of home and leaves the Star Wars galaxy to find habitable planets on an entirely different galaxy.  A crew of scoundrels, ex-Imperials, and a force sensitive crew member or two come to visit new worlds to find that they're entirely outmatched by a galaxy that employs bio-tech and other things completely unseen in other Star Wars films.

Not So Long Ago - Set thousands of years ahead of the Skywalker saga, the galaxy has finally been at peace for a long time.  The religion of Jedi and Sith has also been extinct for years.  A warring civilization descends, and everyone in the galaxy is out of their league since they've been complacent for so long.  Our protagonists finds that that they have powers that could be a weapon against the aliens, but they're agnostic and don't even believe the Jedi ever even existed. 



#63
The Choc

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Yeah.. but if I was Rian Johnson (like the thread title suggests) I wouldn't be making Star Wars for young kids. Teens at best. 

 

But then, I probably wouldn't get very far with a plan like that.

 

Rian Johnson has to answer to Disney who are going to be investing roughly a billion dollars in these three movies. So you'd have to come up with something they want to get behind. 



#64
The Choc

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Also I think there is something inherently selfish in saying "well im older so im going to make what I want and not aim it at kids." The vast majority of us got into Star Wars as young kids. That magic of just being so excited by a movie that the moment you got home you start running around pretending to be Luke or Han. That is the essence of Star Wars. If I were a film maker my greatest joy would be seeing kids loving my story and characters. Far more than pleasing critics or adults. Star Wars is like Christmas, everyone loves it but it's really for kids. If you were to ask me if I'd rather get what I wanted for Xmas or have children I know get what they wanted, I'd pick the kids. I'd hope everyone would. Same thing applies to Star Wars. 


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#65
The Choc

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I've got three different elevator pitches:

Birth of the Jedi - This would deal with the very beginning of religion in a very early Star Wars universe that would be in their version of the Industrial Revolution, with none of the same technology present.  The first episode would deal with a Cain and Abel type feud with two brothers that would become the Jedi and Sith.  Each would bring along cult members, build temples, and then destroy one another in the last episode.

Lost Galaxy - A ship full of explorers is tired of the drama of home and leaves the Star Wars galaxy to find habitable planets on an entirely different galaxy.  A crew of scoundrels, ex-Imperials, and a force sensitive crew member or two come to visit new worlds to find that they're entirely outmatched by a galaxy that employs bio-tech and other things completely unseen in other Star Wars films.

Not So Long Ago - Set thousands of years ahead of the Skywalker saga, the galaxy has finally been at peace for a long time.  The religion of Jedi and Sith has also been extinct for years.  A warring civilization descends, and everyone in the galaxy is out of their league since they've been complacent for so long.  Our protagonists finds that that they have powers that could be a weapon against the aliens, but they're agnostic and don't even believe the Jedi ever even existed. 

 

It's interesting you say Cain and Abel. I'm kinda looking at these movies and the existing episode movies as almost part of a Star Wars Bible. In a way I'm looking at it like we are in the "future" living in the Star Wars galaxy and The Force is basically our religion. The movies we have now, the Skywalker saga, is essentially The New Testament. I'm looking at the Johnson trilogy as part of the Old Testament. It needs to tell a story that pertains to the overall religion, rather than just being a story told that takes place in that galaxy. For instance it can tell of the discovery of the Force, early days of the Jedi (those 2 don't have to be the same), the formation of the Republic, a schism in the Jedi that leads to the Sith (or other dark side threat). 

 

I'm not saying Johnson is looking at it like that, Im sure he isn't. But if I were hired by Disney to helm a new trilogy that is how I'd look at it. 



#66
Zerimar Nyliram

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That was pretty close to the idea I had, only it was s brother-sister feud. It would see the birth of the Jedi Knights and their first conflict with the dark side. The followers of the dark side do not go on to become the Sith at this time, though; the Sith don't come along for another eighteen thousand years.



#67
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Yeah.. but if I was Rian Johnson (like the thread title suggests) I wouldn't be making Star Wars for young kids. Teens at best. 
 
But then, I probably wouldn't get very far with a plan like that.

 
Rian Johnson has to answer to Disney who are going to be investing roughly a billion dollars in these three movies. So you'd have to come up with something they want to get behind. 

I'm pretty sure Disney would get behind the "young adult" pitch. That is a market they have stated they are interested in acquiring. There is enough Star Wars targeted at young children and families for Disney to afford to broaden their horizons.

I'm being selfish?? Mate it's just a hypothetical on a message board, and I'm just playing along for arguments sake.

#68
The Choc

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Ofcourse Disney wants young adults to like the movie, they want it to appeal to everyone. You don't think TFA got young adults? They want young adults, they want kids, they want families. They want it all. They wouldn't want a movie that they feel will exclude children. Just like if you pitched a movie that was too kidsy/cutesy they wouldn't want that either. 



#69
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Your missing my point...

 

This thread was a hypothetical question. I answered hypothetically what I would want to shoot for. And then you're basically like 'nahh thats dumb. And a little selfish. They wouldn't go for it.. think of the children (etc)'.

 

All of which is beside the point.

 

Cause it was only my opinion... but since I'm not allowed one of those, please post more of your story so I can see what Rian should really do if you were him.... in this hypothetical situation.


Edited by Odine, 23 November 2017 - 12:30 PM.


#70
Jacen123

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I would let the Wookiee win.


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#71
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Ahh it doesn't matter. I'm just being a minge 



#72
The Choc

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Obviously entitled to your opinion but when you post that opinion on a messageboard you have to be ok with someone disagreeing with your opinion or at least having an opinion about your opinion. I said earlier I liked the idea of a dark Jedi, for lack of a better term, who is basically evil but doesn't like the Sith. I like the idea, I'm not putting the concept down. I'm just saying I don't like the idea of that character being the main character of an entire trilogy. 



#73
Filthy Jawa

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If I was Rian Johnson, I would read this thread and do the opposite of what all you guys said.

Also, I think he has a rough sketch of the origin of the Jedi, that came about in writing TLJ, and that's what we'll see.
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#74
Odine

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Obviously entitled to your opinion but when you post that opinion on a messageboard you have to be ok with someone disagreeing with your opinion or at least having an opinion about your opinion. I said earlier I liked the idea of a dark Jedi, for lack of a better term, who is basically evil but doesn't like the Sith. I like the idea, I'm not putting the concept down. I'm just saying I don't like the idea of that character being the main character of an entire trilogy. 

That's fine then. You say it wouldn't work cause kids don't want to run around as a bad guy... But I loved Darth Vader when I was a kid. I loved Boba Fett. I always liked the Joker more than Batman when I was a kid despite the fact I was afraid of clowns. I used to recite jack nicolsons dialogue as the joker all day long and wear purple trousers. Just because your experience with (your?) kids is that they wanna run around playing heros doesn't mean every kid does. So I don't buy the argument that having a dark sider as the main character wouldn't work. You just need to write them more cleverly, make them more sympathetic than what we are currently have, and make them more fun than the "good" guys. It's not that hard a sell.

Look... Even in return of the Jedi Luke is acting a little more of a badass than he was in ANH and in empire. He's wearing black, threatens Jabba with death if they're not released... Goes full anger to defeat Vader. He's just a little more badass than what we got before. That was my favorite Luke when I was a kid too.

I don't want a purple light sabre wielding emo-fringed edgelord as the main protagonist. (Ramons fear). But I'd like a character that is compelling in that they could inspire legitimate fear/dread and respect. One that doesn't take any **** and who's lessons are the rejection of passivity. That nothing tangible, no external change happens by sitting around meditating and being pious. A character that can teach inner strength to people and for them not to fear their own darkness, or their anger, but how to harness those feelings for strength and to channel them in a beneficial way.

Again I don't want an emo edgelord. But someone compelling.

Edited by Odine, 24 November 2017 - 02:03 AM.


#75
The Choc

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If you make darkside users "fun" or "likeable" you are basically undoing everything we know about Star Wars. You don't dabble in the dark side. You don't use it to achieve a "good" goal. When you fall to the dark side, you are evil. Even if at first your intention is to use that power for good, it will be corrosive and eventually you will be a terrible, evil person. 

 

If you wanna do that, then fine, but make no mistake you are changing the entire morality of Star Wars and changing it at a fundamental level. 





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