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You’re Rian Johnson... now what?

Tarss

245 replies to this topic

#226
El Chalupacabra

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So, Pav, basically by your logic, a sports fan who doesn't like the direction a coach is taking a baseball team, is somehow ridiculous when that sports fan  expresses a desire for that coach to be fired or traded?  What I am doing is the exact same thing.  Indeed, how many sports fans feel about their favorite sport is how I feel about Star Wars. Where was your outrage 10-15 years ago when people were complaining about GL and the direction of the PT? Hell, people STILL complain about the PT on this message board.   Why do you not criticize them?  Or is it you just like singling me out and criticizing me personally about my disdain for TLJ for some reason?

 

This is a discussion board where people express opinions.  It doesn't matter if LFL will actually implement said opinions, and if anything is unreasonable, its you trying to criticize me for expressing an opinion.    I haven't attacked anyone on the basis of their like or dislike of TLJ.  If someone likes it, hey, I am OK with that.  I am just not ok with that movie, or the guy who wrote and directed it, and I certainly don't think he should be rewarded with a trilogy of his own, after what I think was a terrible movie. It's simple as that. 



#227
The Choc

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You are certainly allowed to have whatever opinion you want of the movie but what does your original post add to the topic? Whats the point of it? This thread is about ideas that you would do if you were given the opportunity Johnson has been given. What does saying "I hope Johnson gets fired" add to this discussion? Your opinion of the movie is well known. It's like when Zerimar just pops in and is like "wel in the EU blah blah blah" Whats the point? What does it add? We know Zerimar is mad the EU was kicked to the curb, we know you don't like TLJ. Adding it again here, with no reasons for it, doesn;t add a thing. Its a complete and total waste. ANd just like Zerimar just comes acorss like whiner when he makes those random posts about the old EU, thats how you seem when you make a post like you did. 

 

It's one thing to go into TLJ thread and say "hey i was thinking about the movie some today and this is something new I've thought of...." and then be as negative as you wish, thats great. But whats the point of that post in this thread? What's it accomplish, how does it advance the discusson? Does it just somehow make you feel better to randomly state once in a while your disdain for TLJ?



#228
El Chalupacabra

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So basically, Choc, unless I am on the Rian Johnson bandwagon, I can have an opinion, but I just can't express it here.  My opinion adds directly to the discussion, because what I am saying is I don't want a Rian Johnson led film or trilogy in the first place. How can someone who is on record of saying that he ENJOYS it when he angers half the audience be given a trilogy?  I think it is a completely valid thing to bring that up.  But you want to play it your way, fine.  Here's a discussion for you, then. 

 

Instead of Rian Johnson, I wish LFL would replace him with Gareth Edwards.  Of the 4 Disney era LFL Star Wars films, R1 is far and away my favorite.  He would have been a great choice for a trilogy.  Set it in the Old republic, during the OT era, or far into the future past the ST.  I don't care.  The guy treated his film with the care and respect for the franchise that Johnson was unable and unwilling to.  Happy?



#229
pavonis

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So, Pav, basically by your logic, a sports fan who doesn't like the direction a coach is taking a baseball team, is somehow ridiculous when that sports fan  expresses a desire for that coach to be fired or traded?  What I am doing is the exact same thing.  Indeed, how many sports fans feel about their favorite sport is how I feel about Star Wars. Where was your outrage 10-15 years ago when people were complaining about GL and the direction of the PT?


Yeah. Sports fans are ridiculous too. Far too emotionally attached to a game. Armchair expertise isn't real expertise.

#230
The Choc

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Sure, I disagree but thats better than just randomly saying "I hope Johnson gets fired". I mean Edwards 1-didn't write his movie, 2-needed someone to come in and fix it for him. But overall yeah I like Rogue One and if Lucasfilm wanted to give him another crack at Star Wars I'd be ok with it. 

 

Personally I think Johnson is 100% the right choice. He did to Star Wars what needed to be done or should have been done in the Prequels. He messed it up some. The way TLJ makes us look at Luke is exactly what the prequels should have done to Obi Wan and/or Yoda. Obi Wan should have done something terrible in the PT that was partially responsible for Anakin's turn. I think at some point during the PT we shoulda thought "screw you Obi Wan, you POS". 

 

Johnson actually had the care and respect for the franchise to do something to push it forward, rather than just revere it's past. He said "the events of this trilogy are just as important as the events of the OT." He made the night that Kylo left the Temple truly devastating. JJ already made it destroy Han and Leia's marriage. Johnson  took it even one step futher and made it destroy Luke too. He didn't just say "oh I better not do anything that will change or challenge people's thinking on Star Wars." He said "no, the events here are what matters now. What happened with Kylo is what matters now and what happened with him destroyed all of the characters we know and love in some way."



#231
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A vision doesn't have to a narrative, like Marvel with everything leading to Inifinity War.

A cohesive vision or theme could work as well. For example, I find it very confusing that TLJ decides have the deepest thematic content of any SW movie ever, but since SW stories are told in a grand sweeping simple way, that message was bludgeoned over our head-- nothing is sacred, the past is not precious, change your expectations, destroy the familiar.
 
At yet Solo and R1 tell is the exact opposite: celebrate the nostalgia, connect the dots in a new, buts safely familiar way, the OT is the end all, be all.
 
Those are two very different messages, even if somebody thinks that all movies are just popcorn escapism, those concepts will soak into their head. 


A vision could also be as simple as knowing the types of movies they want to make and the types of people they want to work with. They've fired directors on three films, and had someone come in and fix a fourth film. When a company, a film studio or a hot dog stand, is having that kind of problem, it comes down to management not having a vision of how the business should be run.
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#232
El Chalupacabra

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So, Pav, basically by your logic, a sports fan who doesn't like the direction a coach is taking a baseball team, is somehow ridiculous when that sports fan  expresses a desire for that coach to be fired or traded?  What I am doing is the exact same thing.  Indeed, how many sports fans feel about their favorite sport is how I feel about Star Wars. Where was your outrage 10-15 years ago when people were complaining about GL and the direction of the PT?


Yeah. Sports fans are ridiculous too. Far too emotionally attached to a game. Armchair expertise isn't real expertise.

 

So, the take away is if one hasn't done a dissertation and earned a PhD, or are otherwise a subject matter expert on any given subject, and hasn't purged all emotion like a freaking Vulcan, then they have no right to speak on said subject and should shut the eff up?  Nice. 



#233
El Chalupacabra

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Sure, I disagree but thats better than just randomly saying "I hope Johnson gets fired". I mean Edwards 1-didn't write his movie, 2-needed someone to come in and fix it for him. But overall yeah I like Rogue One and if Lucasfilm wanted to give him another crack at Star Wars I'd be ok with it. 

 

Personally I think Johnson is 100% the right choice. He did to Star Wars what needed to be done or should have been done in the Prequels. He messed it up some. The way TLJ makes us look at Luke is exactly what the prequels should have done to Obi Wan and/or Yoda. Obi Wan should have done something terrible in the PT that was partially responsible for Anakin's turn. I think at some point during the PT we shoulda thought "screw you Obi Wan, you POS". 

 

Johnson actually had the care and respect for the franchise to do something to push it forward, rather than just revere it's past. He said "the events of this trilogy are just as important as the events of the OT." He made the night that Kylo left the Temple truly devastating. JJ already made it destroy Han and Leia's marriage. Johnson  took it even one step futher and made it destroy Luke too. He didn't just say "oh I better not do anything that will change or challenge people's thinking on Star Wars." He said "no, the events here are what matters now. What happened with Kylo is what matters now and what happened with him destroyed all of the characters we know and love in some way."

OK I recognize your right to your opinion, but I completely disagree.   Sometimes I feel like you and I saw two completely different movies.   Rian Johnson was FAR from original.  He totally ripped off entire scenes and themes from the OT, and simply just added his own twist.   He trashed not only the story lines of the OT, but trashed set ups from TFA like a nihilist.  We couldn't be presented any kind of back story for Snoke, but we had to sit through 30+ minutes of the hell that is Canto Bite (me).  We all knew that Rey may or may not have been a Skywalker decedent  prior to TLJ, and there was a good chance she wasn't (which is fine), but the way it was presented was lame.  And let's not forget the lamest space chase ever put on film.  I could deal with grumpy hermit Luke, but Johnson dropped the ball on that too, and only due to Mark Hamill being a terrific actor saved that (my only real issue with Luke himself in that move being him pulling a light saber on Kylo, other than that I have no significant complaints about Luke).   All that was a sloppily constructed, hot, jumbled mess unworthy of the name Star Wars, let alone an Episode Star Wars movie. 

 

As to Gareth Edwards, maybe the lesson here is you hire a director to direct, and a writer to write. GL was slammed for doing to much.  Rian Johnson, who I believe wasn't at the experience level to handle a Star Wars movie, probably would have been better off focusing on directing, and not writing, because his writing sucked.  Not to mention, it is unfortunate Johnson didn't have a Marcia Lucas-type of editor to save his film.



#234
pavonis

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So, Pav, basically by your logic, a sports fan who doesn't like the direction a coach is taking a baseball team, is somehow ridiculous when that sports fan  expresses a desire for that coach to be fired or traded?  What I am doing is the exact same thing.  Indeed, how many sports fans feel about their favorite sport is how I feel about Star Wars. Where was your outrage 10-15 years ago when people were complaining about GL and the direction of the PT?

Yeah. Sports fans are ridiculous too. Far too emotionally attached to a game. Armchair expertise isn't real expertise.
 
So, the take away is if one hasn't done a dissertation and earned a PhD, or are otherwise a subject matter expert on any given subject, and hasn't purged all emotion like a freaking Vulcan, then they have no right to speak on said subject and should shut the eff up?  Nice. 

No. I just expect adults to be rational. You're an adult. You don't like RJ and TLJ. Fine. Don't expect Disney to fire him and not make his trilogy though. Do coaches get fired for one bad game? If you really want that outcome, though, follow up with Disney/LFL and start some sort of campaign. Railing on the internet's quietest message board isn't going to achieve anything.

#235
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You know what's worse than TLJ or Solo? Fandom. It's getting worse and worse, and this thread is full of examples. I'm more likely to let Star Wars drift from my life not because of the films, but because of the association with how toxic, insular, hateful, and divided the fanbase has become. TLJ certainly contributed to that, as did the PT before it. And while I was a hater on this site in my youth, now, with ever passing day, I just can't help but see a bunch of adults letting their lives be effected by a freaking movie.

I look at fandom and I see:

Child actor Jake Lloyd never working again and clearly on the bad side of a breakdown
Hayden Christianson quit acting
George Lucas not want to make any more movies
Daisy Ridley delete her Instagram
Kelly Marie Tran leave Instagram

...and a growing contingent of obviously socially consevative people who can't handle diversity or inclusion in their beloved franchise and assume everything is a conspiracy against their beliefs.

I love Star Wars but fandom has reached peak awfulness.
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#236
Lord Darth Hunter

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Still waiting for that diversity and inclusion to actually include diverse people behind the camera and creative process.  


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#237
The Choc

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I've just never got the anger people seem to exude. I remember back in 99, I had seen , a bunch of friends and I would talk about it. Some liked it, some didn't. We'd have a fun time talking about it either way. I was the biggest Star Wars fan though so after a couple months they didn't really want to talk about the movie anymore. That's when I came to this place. People not liking the movie didn't surprise me, like i said I had friends who really didn't like it. The anger, the hatred just surprised the hell out of me. I just couldn't wrap my mind around it. I still can't. They are movies, if you don't like one, you don't like one. No big deal, hopefully you will like the next one. 



#238
El Chalupacabra

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You know what's worse than TLJ or Solo? Fandom. It's getting worse and worse, and this thread is full of examples. I'm more likely to let Star Wars drift from my life not because of the films, but because of the association with how toxic, insular, hateful, and divided the fanbase has become. TLJ certainly contributed to that, as did the PT before it. And while I was a hater on this site in my youth, now, with ever passing day, I just can't help but see a bunch of adults letting their lives be effected by a freaking movie.

I look at fandom and I see:

Child actor Jake Lloyd never working again and clearly on the bad side of a breakdown
Hayden Christianson quit acting
George Lucas not want to make any more movies
Daisy Ridley delete her Instagram
Kelly Marie Tran leave Instagram

...and a growing contingent of obviously socially consevative people who can't handle diversity or inclusion in their beloved franchise and assume everything is a conspiracy against their beliefs.

I love Star Wars but fandom has reached peak awfulness.

I say this with respect, Tank, but weren't you one of the most critical posters about the PT and EU?  

 

All I am trying to get across is how you felt about PT, I feel about TLJ.  I'm not calling for harassment of anyone or boycotts or any such nonsense.   Just expressing my disappointment is all.  

 

But since Choc, you, and Pav want me to shut up about TLJ, fine.  You all win.  I will.  In fact, I may just take a break from this place altogether.    Maybe I'll be back, maybe not.  


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#239
The Choc

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You misunderstand me, I never wanted you stop talking about TLJ. I really just said that your one post about hoping Johnson gets fired is just a waste. I think I responded fairly to your next post saying you'd prefer Edwards. 

 

However I will say this: You said just before that you wonder if you and I saw the same movie. I have to say I wonder if you saw the same movie as yourself. You were pretty positive towards in most of the I've Seen TLJ thread. In fact you were far more positive after a 2nd viewing and were consistent in that view for most of the remainder of the thread. Then the thread kinda died down as the movies theatrical run ended, it picked up again when it was released to home media. Then you basically hated it. 

 

I totally get opinions on movies can change over time, but yours was severe. I'm just wondering what happened? Between the theater and seeing it at home did the stuff you not like just stew inside your head until you hated it? Did you get the blu ray and were all excited to watch it and then when you did you were like "crap I don't like this as much as I thought."

 

Im really asking, not in any kind of dickish way. Like I said opinions change over time but your opinion changed wildly in what is basically a very short period of time. I think you'd have to acknowledge that. Just wondering, what happened?



#240
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You know what's worse than TLJ or Solo? Fandom. It's getting worse and worse, and this thread is full of examples. I'm more likely to let Star Wars drift from my life not because of the films, but because of the association with how toxic, insular, hateful, and divided the fanbase has become. TLJ certainly contributed to that, as did the PT before it. And while I was a hater on this site in my youth, now, with ever passing day, I just can't help but see a bunch of adults letting their lives be effected by a freaking movie.

I look at fandom and I see:

Child actor Jake Lloyd never working again and clearly on the bad side of a breakdown
Hayden Christianson quit acting
George Lucas not want to make any more movies
Daisy Ridley delete her Instagram
Kelly Marie Tran leave Instagram

...and a growing contingent of obviously socially consevative people who can't handle diversity or inclusion in their beloved franchise and assume everything is a conspiracy against their beliefs.

I love Star Wars but fandom has reached peak awfulness.

I say this with respect, Tank, but weren't you one of the most critical posters about the PT and EU?  
 
All I am trying to get across is how you felt about PT, I feel about TLJ.  I'm not calling for harassment of anyone or boycotts or any such nonsense.   Just expressing my disappointment is all.  
 
I was100% part of the problem-- like I said, I contributed to the hate to some extent. The difference being in the 90s I was a 20-something fresh out of film school know it all. Now I'm a 40-something parent who has had fan rage directed at him.

So I kinda grew up. Do I think the PT is good? No- but I'm over trying to ruin the world fornpeople who do. I'll still get worked up sometimes sure, but right now, today, I'm feeling more detached from fandom than I ever have.

And I was certainly not suggesting you leave or be silent!

#241
The Kurgan

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You know what's worse than TLJ or Solo? Fandom. It's getting worse and worse, and this thread is full of examples. I'm more likely to let Star Wars drift from my life not because of the films, but because of the association with how toxic, insular, hateful, and divided the fanbase has become. TLJ certainly contributed to that, as did the PT before it. And while I was a hater on this site in my youth, now, with ever passing day, I just can't help but see a bunch of adults letting their lives be effected by a freaking movie.

I look at fandom and I see:

Child actor Jake Lloyd never working again and clearly on the bad side of a breakdown
Hayden Christianson quit acting
George Lucas not want to make any more movies
Daisy Ridley delete her Instagram
Kelly Marie Tran leave Instagram

...and a growing contingent of obviously socially consevative people who can't handle diversity or inclusion in their beloved franchise and assume everything is a conspiracy against their beliefs.

I love Star Wars but fandom has reached peak awfulness.


I agree with this. How Star Wars Fans Killed Star Wars.  Not that the prequels or sequels were above criticism. None of them are great films by any definition. But the bitterness and sense of entitlement displayed by the fans on an ongoing basis ... there's plenty of room for legitimate criticism, but the fandom have just been complete pricks about it. Just the kind of stock internet hatedom that forecloses on any kind of reasonable discussion about anything, including quality, indepth analysis of where the films really have gone wrong from a film making standpoint.  Again, not that Lucas, Johnson, Kennedy, Abrams, et. al are blameless here. But no matter what had been done in the last seven films, there would have been whining and complaining about it. And besides, the angry nerd fandom has only itself to blame for Disney's takeover of the franchise in the first place. If Disney just wants to give them the middle finger at this point, I can't say I'd blame them. They're getting what they deserve.

 

A part of me hopes episode IX is little more than one long Woman's Studies lecture. Let it sound like a God dam Everyday Feminism article. From start to finish. Think Rose and Jar Jar are so bad now, you spiteful little douchebags? F**k you too, sniveling little fanboys. 

 

And that's coming from me. The bitter old Kurgan, with near two decades of anti-feminist curmudgeonery hereabouts under his belt.

 

Let THAT tell you what I think about all of this.



#242
The Choc

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This has always been my only outlet for "fandom". I don't have any friends who I'd call huge Star Wars fans. I have plenty of friends who really like the movies but none I'd say are part of fandom. The more you see and you see things like Kelly Marie Tran having to take her instagram down because people are being racist towards her? It's sickening. 

 

Kurgans point about no matter what was done in the last 7 movies would have drawn ire is 100% correct. Tanks statement about wanting to ruin the PT for people who liked it is 100%  on point. Too often the discussion wasn;t two people arguing about a movie. It was one person with almost the feeling of "if I don't enjoy this movie, no one is going to enjoy this movie." I've never minded arguing about the movies, in fact I enjoy it. Anyone who has posted in the sports forum can tell you I like arguing. That's what Im trying to tell Chalup, I dont want him t not post here. I don't want him to not tear TLJ up if thats how he feels. All I was saying is that a post in the middle of a topic "I hope RJ gets fired" is kinda a lame post. 

 

Having said that, Tank you never came anywhere near descending to the true dregs of fandom, in fact I'd say that very few people on this board ever have. Maybe none ever have.

 

In the end Tran taking down her instagram isn;t the biggest problem with fandom. The biggest problem is that there is a segment of fandom who when seeing she took it down thought "job well done."

 

At the end of the day they are just movies. We all sometimes make them more than that, both those of us who love certain movie and the ones who hate. But once in a while you gotta just realize "its just a movie. I don;t like this one. Hopefully I will like the next one."



#243
Filthy Jawa

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The internet has a dark side (can you believe that?) You've described some of the ways it has manifested in Star Wars. It happens in politics, sports, celebrity culture, cyber bullying....people use the internet in horrible ways sometimes.

I'm not sure Daisy Ridley deleting her Instagram over a gun control post is all that similar to what happened to Jake Lloyd, but the internet is a ****ty place.

Basically, I get what you're saying about fandom, but the implication almost seems to be that we can't come here and post about stuff we didn't like. We are not the problem here. We're not attacking the actors and directors on Twitter, we are in a tiny corner of the internet complaining to nineteen other people.
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#244
Lord Darth Hunter

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This:

This has always been my only outlet for "fandom". I don't have any friends who I'd call huge Star Wars fans. I have plenty of friends who really like the movies but none I'd say are part of fandom.


I feel the same way. The internet is full of "keyboard thugs." And oddly enough, this site is the only one I feel I can safely come in, put my two cents in and see where it leads, who agrees and disagrees, and have a fun conversation. Every other place where I've participated, you get stuff like, "you're an idiot" or shut the eff up and much much worse attacks that have absolutely nothing to do with the conversation at hand. I always laugh when I even try at other sites because it's a huge wake up to realize, oh that's right, I'm not on nightly, that's why I'm getting those godawful responses.

By the way, sidenote to Choc, I don't think Chalup's opinion that RJ should be fired is that bad. LFL has been firing directors left and right. No one got bent out of shape over all of them.
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#245
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And to be fair, football [insert "soccer" here] managers and coaches get "let go" off the back of a bad season all the time.

Personally, TLJ made me think RJ is a bad fit for what I like about SW. I'm not hyped for his trilogy at all. But then, it's hard to know who really is chiefly responsible for creative decisions I dislike when the whole process of filmmaking is massive collaboration. No one person can be blamed for everything.
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#246
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These quotes from Lucas a few years ago I think sums it up perfectly:

 


“It was fine before the internet… But now… it’s gotten very vicious and very personal. You just say, ‘Why do I need to do this?'”

 

and

 


"You go to make a movie and all you do is get criticized, and people try to make decisions about what you're going to do before you do it," Lucas says. "You know, it's not much fun. And you can't experiment, you can't do anything. You 'have' to do everything a certain way. I don't like that, I never have — I started out in experimental films and I want to go back to experimental films, but of course, nobody wants to see experimental films."

 

It's not hard to see why he just sold it off to Disney. Now I don't think the above quotes are indicative of anyone here - a lot of people disagree with each others interpretations but it's all still generally pretty rational and adult - which is why I still enjoy coming here to read about what you guys think about the films and discussing theories , opposed to somewhere like reddit where it's all just vile, teenage crap with no other context than just complaining for the sake of complaining. Chalupacabra I hope you don't leave, while I completely disagree with you on TLJ I still enjoy your posts and would suck to lose your point of view. 


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