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I would like to see how Naboo became Dagobah

You know what's worse than TLJ or Solo? Fandom. It's getting worse and worse, and this thread is full of examples. I'm more likely to let Star Wars drift from my life not because of the films, but bec

Just like everyone else, I think it will be something to do with the beginnings of the Jedi.   Here is my other prediction.... This trilogy ends with Chewbacca sacrificing himself to destroy Starkil

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If you make darkside users "fun" or "likeable" you are basically undoing everything we know about Star Wars. You don't dabble in the dark side. You don't use it to achieve a "good" goal. When you fall to the dark side, you are evil. Even if at first your intention is to use that power for good, it will be corrosive and eventually you will be a terrible, evil person.

 

If you wanna do that, then fine, but make no mistake you are changing the entire morality of Star Wars and changing it at a fundamental level.

Totally disagree but whatever. KOTOR and KOTOR 2 and many other Star Wars media procivide a much more nuanced take on Te force and the dark side. Doing what I suggest is not undoing anything.

 

But if it is as you say then.. Well I think Star Wars could use the update.

 

You're about as fun to interact with as a brick wall.

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I really hope he doesn't do the Jedi origins story. I'm tired of my ideas being crapped all over. Even though this is a different canon than the one I adhere to, and their origin story would be drastically different, I would feel defeated if they did one. I'm already perturbed that they've done two films (and will do more) with female leads, because that was my idea with the Jedi origins story and now I feel sort of uninspired to write it because these new films are all about the female leads and nothing else (Kathleen Kennedy's own admission). If they do Jedi origins, even though I have no interest in anything that contradicts the old canon, I will just feel defeated in every way imaginable.

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Not really getting involved in the argument itself, but I think that this shows a huge weakness with Star Wars: they allowed other media to overrule the movies. The movies make it completely clear:

 

once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will

It was supposed to be incredibly special that Anakin returned from the Dark Side, but it ended up being a fairly common occurrence. The Dark Side went from crack to McDonald's.

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If we look at these "fairly common" occurrences and juxtapose them with the history of the Jedi (twenty-five thousand years), the nature of the dark side and its hold over those who wield it, and the history of those redeemed from the dark side versus those who fell and never came back from it, then we see that these "fairly common" occurrences are few and far between. Thus, Yoda and Ob-Wan were justified in their ways of thinking regarding the dark side since the odds of returning to the light were extremely slim, like a heroin addict kicking his habit cold-turkey. Sure, it happened, but rarely. Those times it did were exceptional cases.

Things like this are what make Star Wars lore so fantastic and rich, much like real-world history.

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Guest El Chalupacabra

 

If you make darkside users "fun" or "likeable" you are basically undoing everything we know about Star Wars. You don't dabble in the dark side. You don't use it to achieve a "good" goal. When you fall to the dark side, you are evil. Even if at first your intention is to use that power for good, it will be corrosive and eventually you will be a terrible, evil person.

 

If you wanna do that, then fine, but make no mistake you are changing the entire morality of Star Wars and changing it at a fundamental level.

Totally disagree but whatever. KOTOR and KOTOR 2 and many other Star Wars media procivide a much more nuanced take on Te force and the dark side. Doing what I suggest is not undoing anything.

 

But if it is as you say then.. Well I think Star Wars could use the update.

 

You're about as fun to interact with as a brick wall.

 

Totally agree with Odine. The KOTOR 1&2 games had some of the best Star Wars story lines in all of Star Wars. In many ways, they were the prequels we should have had. I never got into the TOR MMO game, so I can't speak to that, but the cut scenes and basic premise seem pretty good, too. Also, I am still a fan of any of the Kyle Katarn games, as well.

 

I think there totally is a way to have a Sith centric film, to give more back ground and nuance to the Sith on screen, without glorifying them, or making the Jedi seem "lesser." My personal idea is to focus on a Jedi schism, and base it on historical fact. Maybe draw inspiration from the Crusades and the East-West Catholic Church schism, and Papal Schism of the 1400s. Basically, the Jedi have a crisis that causes two factions within the order to splinter. That results in a faction that continues as the "Orthodox Jedi Order" we know, and a group that eventually becomes the Sith. I'd also like to see sub orders of the Jedi Order, similar in concept to the various orders of the Catholic Church like the Teutonic Knights, Dominicans, Jesuits, Franciscans, Benedictines, etc, or the various Shaolin monastic orders. In that scenario, each Jedi Sub order, or conclave, subscribes to different interpretations of the Force like denominations, whereas the Sith basically devolve into the anti-Jedi order, and is to the Jedi as Satanism is to Christianity.

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I really hope he doesn't do the Jedi origins story. I'm tired of my ideas being crapped all over. Even though this is a different canon than the one I adhere to, and their origin story would be drastically different, I would feel defeated if they did one. I'm already perturbed that they've done two films (and will do more) with female leads, because that was my idea with the Jedi origins story and now I feel sort of uninspired to write it because these new films are all about the female leads and nothing else (Kathleen Kennedy's own admission). If they do Jedi origins, even though I have no interest in anything that contradicts the old canon, I will just feel defeated in every way imaginable.

This isnt attack, but it frames my reasons for disliking the mindset behind fan fiction.

 

You cant get mad when you love an IP that isnt yours is taken in a direction you dont like. Its not yours. Its there for you to enjoy or not, but you dont have ownship of it.

 

Id say if you love it that much, why can your head canon and fan fic not just do what you want? Why does them doing something you hate stop you when NONE of it is real? Its all fiction. Make your own version and leave the official one behind. You hate the Disney owned Lucasfilm, and yet you respect their stamp of officialdom as what counts.

 

That said, and this is just me talking about myself, but why waste time at all on something that isnt yours? Make you own thing so theres never any danger of it doing something you dont like.

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Oh, I don't recognize Disney's decrees at all, and what they say has no bearing whatsoever to what I view as canonical. However, by proximity, I'm sure you can understand why it is a little disheartening when the "big guys" start doing what you're doing. You get drown out and you feel disinterested despite their work not being the same as yours. In fact, this may add fuel to the fire. If I'm writing about the Jedi origins (making it fully compatible with the EU because I have that much love and respect for it), and then the "official" stuff comes out regarding the same topic--not in a book, comic, or video game, mind you, but in the loudest and most pronounced manner: a film--it immediately puts a stigma on your own writing. You become uninspiring. A copycat. A person who reinvents the wheel, even though you have no interest in what the wheel looks like. Get what I'm saying?

 

Make no mistake, though: I hold no delusions about a franchise doing what it wishes, even when I have something else planned. Hell, this happened before the Disney buy-out: I had to rewrite my story a dozen times as new info about the era was released, finally relenting when Dark Horse decided to move in for the kill and tell the story themselves (though it was unfinished, and I make take it up again for that reason). I know I am owed nothing. I'm just stating what I hope does or does not happen. Nothing wrong with that.

And most of the professional writers I've met never look down on someone's enjoyment when it comes to writing, whether it's within a franchise that is their own or not. It is certainly a lot of fun to create your own fictional universe from scratch, for obvious reasons, but how can you judge someone who also enjoys playing in someone else's sandbox which they love? If you love a universe that already exists and wish to have fun within it, why is that shameful? You of all people should be cognizant of this, though you were lucky enough to have your work become official. Whether the rest of us are fortunate to that degree or not, why does it matter? Let people enjoy what they want to enjoy, in whatever manner they wish.

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I'm not judging, thats why I said it wasn't an attack. If it makes you happy, go for it.

 

... but it also seems to really frustrate you. I guess in my head you should do what you want and not care whether it's in their sandbox or your own. If you don't care for their canon, why should their similar ideas slow you down?

 

I get the anger over the official SW not being what you like cause thats how I felt through the entire PT era.

 

It's not the love for the sandbox I dont get, it's the idea that they could creatively cockblock you from what you want to do. If you have your own head canon, then you shouldn't worry if they do something similar the only one judging it is you.

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I'm pretty sure Mass Effect started as a fanfic world that looked to combine Star Trek, Star Wars, B5, and Halo... but beca,e it;s own thing. Fanfic can be great way to find new ideas.

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If we look at these "fairly common" occurrences and juxtapose them with the history of the Jedi (twenty-five thousand years), the nature of the dark side and its hold over those who wield it, and the history of those redeemed from the dark side versus those who fell and never came back from it, then we see that these "fairly common" occurrences are few and far between. Thus, Yoda and Ob-Wan were justified in their ways of thinking regarding the dark side since the odds of returning to the light were extremely slim, like a heroin addict kicking his habit cold-turkey. Sure, it happened, but rarely. Those times it did were exceptional cases.

 

Things like this are what make Star Wars lore so fantastic and rich, much like real-world history.

Yeah, except for the fact that it happened to three generations of Skywalkers and Kyp, just off the top of my head. So, yeah, four people within two generations, with a very limited number of Force users? Pretty commonplace.

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You guys have to read Tanks list on the first page of what makes something Star Wars, especially that third line about the simplistic act of good vs evil. Saying you want to "update" that is insane. That's the heart of Star Wars. You have to take a step back and look at what Star Wars is and why it's been so popular for forty years. It's a morality play, a fairy tale, a fable, a bible story. It's universal and it's trying teach us basic, simple lessons. The main one is about the dangers of the dark side of the force. The dark side is basically just a representation of bad things people do in real life. It's the representation of selfishness, greed, jealousy, lying, cheating, stealing, impatience. It's basically the kid who wants a new bike but doesn't want to save the money for it, so he steals a bike. That's essentially it. Star Wars is trying to teach us that yes if you use the dark side you can achieve short term goals. You will attain power, be able to defeat enemies. However there is a price to pay for it. There are consequences. If you have a character who uses the dark side but don't show these consequences you really are ripping the heart out of Star Wars. Because at it's core that's what Star Wars is, a simple, universal story with archetype characters.

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So if ep viii reveals that to be Kylo Ren's story, you're out?

Nope, I've argued against this kind of thinking before. Whenever I see someone say "if so and so happens Im out" I always disagree with that. Even if this happens there will be alot of other things in the movie that I am sure I will like. Secondly as I've said in nearly every post on this topic my real quibble with it would be having the main character of the trilogy have this storyline or characterization. Obviously TLJ has Rey, so if Kylo follows a path like this I'd have little or no problem

 

Having said that i think there will be hints of this, I think Kylo will have enough of Snoke and actually save Rey from Snoke. Everyone will think "oh he's returned to the good side!" but no his thoughts would actually be to take total control of the First Order himself, which he will do.

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If we look at these "fairly common" occurrences and juxtapose them with the history of the Jedi (twenty-five thousand years), the nature of the dark side and its hold over those who wield it, and the history of those redeemed from the dark side versus those who fell and never came back from it, then we see that these "fairly common" occurrences are few and far between. Thus, Yoda and Ob-Wan were justified in their ways of thinking regarding the dark side since the odds of returning to the light were extremely slim, like a heroin addict kicking his habit cold-turkey. Sure, it happened, but rarely. Those times it did were exceptional cases.

 

Things like this are what make Star Wars lore so fantastic and rich, much like real-world history.

Yeah, except for the fact that it happened to three generations of Skywalkers and Kyp, just off the top of my head. So, yeah, four people within two generations, with a very limited number of Force users? Pretty commonplace.

 

Maybe Luke's just better at the whole salvation thing than were the Jedi of the prequel era?

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Guest El Chalupacabra

You guys have to read Tanks list on the first page of what makes something Star Wars, especially that third line about the simplistic act of good vs evil. Saying you want to "update" that is insane. That's the heart of Star Wars. You have to take a step back and look at what Star Wars is and why it's been so popular for forty years. It's a morality play, a fairy tale, a fable, a bible story. It's universal and it's trying teach us basic, simple lessons. The main one is about the dangers of the dark side of the force. The dark side is basically just a representation of bad things people do in real life. It's the representation of selfishness, greed, jealousy, lying, cheating, stealing, impatience. It's basically the kid who wants a new bike but doesn't want to save the money for it, so he steals a bike. That's essentially it. Star Wars is trying to teach us that yes if you use the dark side you can achieve short term goals. You will attain power, be able to defeat enemies. However there is a price to pay for it. There are consequences. If you have a character who uses the dark side but don't show these consequences you really are ripping the heart out of Star Wars. Because at it's core that's what Star Wars is, a simple, universal story with archetype characters.

Not sure if I am included when you say "you guys," but I am going to assume that I am. So, my question to you is this (and just asking to be sure): what is it specifically about going to an earlier era of the old republic (either a version that borrows from KOTOR, or is completely original), that features the Sith and gives them more of a back story, and wanting to see a Jedi-Sith war, isn't Star Wars enough? Such a scenario can be portrayed fairly black and white when it comes to good vs evil, but I don't understand this idea that just because it is Star Wars, it needs to lack nuance. I think ANH and TESB especially, are a LOT more nuanced than is commonly given credit for. Compare that to the PT: Galactic Senate procedures and midichlorians aside, I would say that the PT is TOO simplistic, and leaves too much unsaid or unexplained, or explains things that don't need explaining, and doesn't have the nuance of the OT. And not to bust on TFA, but other than introducing who the new characters are, it really is too simplistic and doesn't have much of a story, as well. Rogue One isn't perfect, but was a step in the right direction.

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If we look at these "fairly common" occurrences and juxtapose them with the history of the Jedi (twenty-five thousand years), the nature of the dark side and its hold over those who wield it, and the history of those redeemed from the dark side versus those who fell and never came back from it, then we see that these "fairly common" occurrences are few and far between. Thus, Yoda and Ob-Wan were justified in their ways of thinking regarding the dark side since the odds of returning to the light were extremely slim, like a heroin addict kicking his habit cold-turkey. Sure, it happened, but rarely. Those times it did were exceptional cases.

 

Things like this are what make Star Wars lore so fantastic and rich, much like real-world history.

Yeah, except for the fact that it happened to three generations of Skywalkers and Kyp, just off the top of my head. So, yeah, four people within two generations, with a very limited number of Force users? Pretty commonplace.

Maybe Luke's just better at the whole salvation thing than were the Jedi of the prequel era?

Possible. He's definitely better than all the other Jedi combined, per the EU

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I don't know if you've read all my posts on this but my only, repeat only, concern is having the main character be essentially a dark side user who is somehow a good guy.

I was arguing for him/her to be the main character.... The central narrative focus. The "protagonist " as it were. Nothing about them being a "good" guy.

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Guest El Chalupacabra

I don't know if you've read all my posts on this but my only, repeat only, concern is having the main character be essentially a dark side user who is somehow a good guy.

Thanks for clarifying and I wouldn't want that either. I like bad guys to be bad. Interesting, and conflicted, sure. Complex, and not evil 100% of the time. Absolutely. At times, even sympathetic would be great. But if I understand you correctly, role-reversing the Sith or dark side users to be sympathetic to the point where you actively root for them to win, and muddy the waters where the Jedi seem evil, and the Sith are justified for being selfish murderers would not be something I'd like to see. But what I would like to see is a dark side user be one of, or THE focus of the story, and I would't mind seeing Jedi as flawed. Just as long as it is clear said dark sider is evil, and the Jedi are good, then I am cool with it.

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Guest El Chalupacabra

 

I really hope he doesn't do the Jedi origins story. I'm tired of my ideas being crapped all over. Even though this is a different canon than the one I adhere to, and their origin story would be drastically different, I would feel defeated if they did one. I'm already perturbed that they've done two films (and will do more) with female leads, because that was my idea with the Jedi origins story and now I feel sort of uninspired to write it because these new films are all about the female leads and nothing else (Kathleen Kennedy's own admission). If they do Jedi origins, even though I have no interest in anything that contradicts the old canon, I will just feel defeated in every way imaginable.

This isnt attack, but it frames my reasons for disliking the mindset behind fan fiction.

 

You cant get mad when you love an IP that isnt yours is taken in a direction you dont like. Its not yours. Its there for you to enjoy or not, but you dont have ownship of it.

With respect, that is utter BS and is the defense used by many a thin skinned producer or writer who does not want to confront the possibility that they are taking an IP in a direction that isn't popular. That line of thinking is dismissive of fans. Just because someone is a fan of a particular IP and not the owner doesn't mean said fan cannot feel anger when that IP is taken in a direction that fan doesn't like. Basically, if you subscribe to this thinking, then you support corporations like CBS who didn't originate an IP (Star Trek!), and have totally snubbed fans, and taken an IP in a direction that many long time fans disagree with. The reason IPs exist (at least at the level Star Trek or Star Wars is at) is BECAUSE fan support in the first place. Snubbing those fans does that IP no favors. Not saying this is something you do, Tank (because I don't thing it is), but, in general, I think it is very arrogant of both owners, as well as producers, directors, and writers to think that way. Basically its saying "we own this IP, and we owe you absolutely nothing. Shut up and take what we give you. We will take your money, but not acknowledge the fact that without fans like you, we wouldn't have a medium to tell this story in the first place." No. When an IP like Star Wars becomes as big as it is, it becomes part of pop culture, and in that sense, it belongs to everyone. And with that perspective, properties like Star Wars should be treated with respect, and fans wishes, to a certain extent, should also be treated with respect. I am not saying that writers necessarily need to poll the audience and ask them how they want the story to unfold, but I am saying that dismissing 20 years of established books, comics, video games, media, etc, and expecting fans who are upset by that to just get over it, is unrealistic at best, and is in some contexts, disrespectful.

 

 

 

Id say if you love it that much, why can your head canon and fan fic not just do what you want? Why does them doing something you hate stop you when NONE of it is real? Its all fiction. Make your own version and leave the official one behind. You hate the Disney owned Lucasfilm, and yet you respect their stamp of officialdom as what counts.

 

That said, and this is just me talking about myself, but why waste time at all on something that isnt yours? Make you own thing so theres never any danger of it doing something you dont like.

 

I get what you are saying, and I get that you are advising ZN to not let these changes bother him so much, which is good advice. And at the end of the day, Star Wars is just a movie franchise. But I also understand where ZN is coming from. The way he feels about the Disney-Era Star Wars (or how you feel about the PT for that matter!) is exactly how I feel about how Paramount treated Star Trek (Namely Into Darkness), and how CBS has given us Battlestar Trek Discovery. I have just started coming to terms with the Kelvin-verse (again, namely Into Darkness) and grudgingly accept that it exists, and even enjoyed Beyond, but I personally pretend it just exists in a bubble by itself and has nothing to do with my favorite era of Star Trek: TOS movie and Berman era. And I refuse to even acknowledge STD exists at all.

 

So, bottom line is once a franchise is as big as Star Wars is, we fans have a right to like it, or hate it, and express approval or disagreement (so long as it doesn't get nasty or personal).

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I'm already perturbed that they've done two films (and will do more) with female leads, because that was my idea with the Jedi origins story and now I feel sort of uninspired to write it because these new films are all about the female leads and nothing else (Kathleen Kennedy's own admission).

Is having a female lead in a movie a 'gimmick'? Or should it just be one of the normal choices?

If you had a story idea that was good, should it really matter that your lead was female, male, trans, etc.? This shouldn't really be a factor.

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