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What was Lucas's original Plan for Ep. 7?


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I would like to point out that George could easily give 10 completely different takes on what his idea really was, and be completely sure on each one.

Oop the record appears to be stuck again          

I personally agree with that, and have the opposite problem - I hate when the technology is explained. Which was a total downside of the EU. Star Wars has always been more magical/fantasy than science

The worst is when someone tries to guilt you into loving a movie. I happen to like The Godfather, but many find it boring and I can understand why. It doesn’t make them bad people, it’s just just not their cup or tea. I can go on and on about why I like it, and if they still think it sucks, and that’s cool.

 

Part of what’s turned off many is that your supposed to like the new SW movies just because they’re SW movies. Even worse is when you try to analyze why so many people don’t .

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Alls I know is TFA gave me the feels. And I give JJ credit for that.

 

That's what Star Wars is to me - cool planets and aliens, blasters, light sabres and the feels. TFA might have regurgitated story points, but it nailed my criteria.

 

TLJ left me cold.

Rogue One nailed it except only half feels.

Solo nailed it, except no feels (and really no light sabres, but I'll contradict myself and say it's not that big a criterion).

I would even say TPM nailed it for me, but it's kind of like it was a perfect fillet mignon....covered in salsa, cheese, peanut butter, chocolate sauce, wasabi and a pecan pie.

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TFA was a standard JJ Abrams movie - great on the emotions, plays well to nostalgia, but just doesn't lead to multiple viewings for me. I watched it three times, because it's Star Wars and I love Star Wars. And then I watched TLJ and hated it. Watched it again when it was available for streaming to see if it was just my expectations being so different, and I liked it even less. I can't imagine watching it a third time unless IX is phenomenal and I want to watch the entire trilogy to see how it all fits.

 

My stance is that I love Stat Wars, and I've consumed a lot of it over the years. But at this point I would take Ben Skywalker over Ben Solo.

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They could pull something great out for IX, but JJ is an opener, not a closer. (See the ending of Super 8, Lost, Cloverfield, etc.)

 

I think that doing the ST was a fool's errand, there was just no way to win. Even if they made GREAT movies, they would still be alienating somebody. I think the new trilogies that Johnson and the GOT guys are doing are more in line with what they should be doing.

 

NEW fresh takes/stories in the universe with maybe some cameos from the classic material if the time frames match up. I know I just said it's possible to make new Luke stories... but now I'm doubting it. His story arc finished in ROTJ.

 

I hope the future of SW is far and away from the episode saga.

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Guest El Chalupacabra

I'm not sure, it's weird, right?

Considering your profession and when you grew up, um, YEAH!

 

Rocky 1 is worth a watch at least once, and Rocky 3 is full of 1980s nostalgia. Rocky 2 is boring, except the final fight. Rocky 4 is ridiculous by today's standards, though it has James Brown in it so it gets some points there. Rocky 5 is flawed but gets back to a more realistic feel. Rocky Balboa was OK, but relies on nostalgia. Creed....damn, almost sacrilegious to say it, but is probably one of the best Rocky movies, though I guess technically it's a spin off.

 

 

They could pull something great out for IX, but JJ is an opener, not a closer. (See the ending of Super 8, Lost, Cloverfield, etc.)

 

I think that doing the ST was a fool's errand, there was just no way to win. Even if they made GREAT movies, they would still be alienating somebody. I think the new trilogies that Johnson and the GOT guys are doing are more in line with what they should be doing.

 

NEW fresh takes/stories in the universe with maybe some cameos from the classic material if the time frames match up. I know I just said it's possible to make new Luke stories... but now I'm doubting it. His story arc finished in ROTJ.

 

I hope the future of SW is far and away from the episode saga.

I have to agree there (though I have ZERO interest in anything Johnson may or may not do with Star Wars)! I'm willing to see what the GOT guys have to do, though. I personally think we will get a non-Ending, with a half-attempt at setting up another trilogy, or Episode 9 will just end in an anticlimatic way with a bunch of unresolved questions. I think in retrospect, instead of the ST, they should have stuck with spin off movies, or movies that add to Episodes 1-6, but don't trample on them (Rogue 1 was great about that) or can be ignored (Solo...no one asked for it, but it doesn't really hurt anything, either), or set new characters in a new setting and time (IE distant past of Star Wars or distant Future of Star Wars). TFA is by itself is a flawed, but worthy follow up which I like, but unfortunately cannot be separated from TLJ, now. My feelings about TLJ are well known at this point around here, so I won't belabor that point, but suffice it to say TLJ wanted to be different by either "subverting expectations" or "killing the past," yet also wanted to glom onto the nostalgia train. You can't be both! Pick one or the other. Crappy writing, plot holes, trashing virtually everything that came before including TFA, and characters doing things just because didn't do TLJ any favors, either.
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I'm not sure, it's weird, right?

Considering your profession and when you grew up, um, YEAH!

 

Rocky 1 is worth a watch at least once, and Rocky 3 is full of 1980s nostalgia. Rocky 2 is boring, except the final fight. Rocky 4 is ridiculous by today's standards, though it has James Brown in it so it gets some points there. Rocky 5 is flawed but gets back to a more realistic feel. Rocky Balboa was OK, but relies on nostalgia. Creed....damn, almost sacrilegious to say it, but is probably one of the best Rocky movies, though I guess technically it's a spin off.

 

 

They could pull something great out for IX, but JJ is an opener, not a closer. (See the ending of Super 8, Lost, Cloverfield, etc.)

 

I think that doing the ST was a fool's errand, there was just no way to win. Even if they made GREAT movies, they would still be alienating somebody. I think the new trilogies that Johnson and the GOT guys are doing are more in line with what they should be doing.

 

NEW fresh takes/stories in the universe with maybe some cameos from the classic material if the time frames match up. I know I just said it's possible to make new Luke stories... but now I'm doubting it. His story arc finished in ROTJ.

 

I hope the future of SW is far and away from the episode saga.

I have to agree there (though I have ZERO interest in anything Johnson may or may not do with Star Wars)! I'm willing to see what the GOT guys have to do, though. I personally think we will get a non-Ending, with a half-attempt at setting up another trilogy, or Episode 9 will just end in an anticlimatic way with a bunch of unresolved questions. I think in retrospect, instead of the ST, they should have stuck with spin off movies, or movies that add to Episodes 1-6, but don't trample on them (Rogue 1 was great about that) or can be ignored (Solo...no one asked for it, but it doesn't really hurt anything, either), or set new characters in a new setting and time (IE distant past of Star Wars or distant Future of Star Wars). TFA is by itself is a flawed, but worthy follow up which I like, but unfortunately cannot be separated from TLJ, now. My feelings about TLJ are well known at this point around here, so I won't belabor that point, but suffice it to say TLJ wanted to be different by either "subverting expectations" or "killing the past," yet also wanted to glom onto the nostalgia train. You can't be both! Pick one or the other. Crappy writing, plot holes, trashing virtually everything that came before including TFA, and characters doing things just because didn't do TLJ any favors, either.

 

You made me think of the Eddy Murphey joke in.. Raw or Delerious I think... where he's imitating Italian Americans and goes "You know what I like about Rocky?? Is the realism" Complete with the forward head nod movement (like a pigeon) and tongue pressing out the bottom lip. ****ing classic.

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Guest Robin

The Rocky films simply use boxing as a backdrop to examine morals, life issues etc. The individual films quality depends greatly on whether the boxing aspect supports or overshadows what the characters are dealing with. Boxing in Rocky is technology in Star Trek. The heart of the Rocky films is a love story, Rockys and Adrians dynamic is the draw and everything else is just a trapping for that. Each film leads from one to the next, even literally using the climax of the prior film to engage you into the new chapter.

 

Rocky 1 & 2 are one story: that being a person who gets their shot, almost succeeds and has to deal with settling or trying again. While this happens Rocky and Adrian mirror their drives to escape what they have and obtain a new life.

 

Rocky 3 is about succeeding to the point of becoming your own enemy then how to recognize and tackle that.

 

Rocky 4 echos 3s themes of age and contentment then puts them into conflict with pride and duty, wrapped up in patriotism.

 

Despite their topics 3 and 4 are the thinnest of the films, relying much more heavily on montages. Rockys and Adrians relationship is of course still present in these stories, Adrian having a defiant monologue in 3 which I like, but there is less time allotted to them than the spectacle of the boxing.

 

Rocky 5 is the direct fallout to 4, it deals with losing your ability to provide then questioning your purpose and worth because of that. Rocky and Adrian are refocused on, but the quality of the new supporting cast severely drags down the film... And thats putting it politely.

 

Rocky Balboa (6) is about loneliness and despair, nostalgia is just the hook to examine that. Adrian isnt in the film, but the film is all about Rocky and Adrian.

 

If anyone was interested in viewing any of these then Id suggest: 1 and 6, even though I love Adrian yelling at Rocky in 3.

 

I believe that Stallone and Talia Shire have an all-time chemistry. That Talias choices throughout the films... I find at least... are captivating. The gutting absence of Adrian in 6 was astoundingly insightful on Stallones part because of this.

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Rocky 3 is still favorite. 1 is the better movie, but I can rewatch 3 forever. Too many one liners, too many inside jokes with friends, etc.

 

If I was going to recommend one for someone new to the series it would be 3, especially if that person is old enough to remember the 80s.

 

The cheese factor is strong with that one. Just turn your brain off and enjoy.

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Guest El Chalupacabra

 

You made me think of the Eddy Murphey joke in.. Raw or Delerious I think... where he's imitating Italian Americans and goes "You know what I like about Rocky?? Is the realism" Complete with the forward head nod movement (like a pigeon) and tongue pressing out the bottom lip. ****ing classic.

 

 

I meant compared to the camp that Rocky 4 was. Realism is relative in Rocky!

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Guest Robin

The funniest thing about that is Stallone and company tried to recapture that idealism, the simplicity of people are people the world over etc in Rambo 3. However the inspiration and resulting irl evolution of the group Rambo favors in part 3 is essentially the Taliban.

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No, but seriously, I think this just proves what I have theorized all along: that Lucas was true to his word when he said the story of the Skywalkers on the big screen was done with Episode VI, and he only typed up some potential story treatments after meeting with Bob Iger, Kathleen Kennedy, et al when they told him their plans to release a sequel trilogy under the new management.

 

George Lucas had toyed with the idea of a 9, and in some cases even a 12 film saga as far back as the late 1970s. What this sequel trilogy was originally to be about is shrouded in rumor and inconsistency, not least of which Lucas later denying that he had any such plans. It seems in retrospect that he wanted to do them, but would have preferred someone else take the reins after how poorly the prequel series was received. Hell, he only decided to do the prequels after the early expanded universe seemed to be quite well received. For the longest time, it was commonly assumed that Timothy Zahn's first series was the novelization of the original sequels.

 

They weren't. Based on what we know, I don't think that what we got with TFA was that far removed from his original idea, at least thematically. It was supposed to be about "Jedi knighthood, justice, confrontation and passing on what you have learned." Also, "the necessity of moral choices and the wisdom needed to distinguish right from wrong." "The third story will deal with the moral and philosophical problems. In Star Wars there is a very clear line drawn between good and evil. Eventually you have to face the fact that good and evil are not that clear cut and the real issue is trying to understand the difference."

 

These from interviews done with Lucas back in the early 1980s, apparently. According to The Secret History of Star Wars, at any rate. A good read. Or if you prefer, listen to it on audio over at YouTube. It's a dense chronicling of how much Lucas waffled and changed his story over the years, despite denying in retrospect that he ever did so. Funny thing is that while there's much that Kennedy/Johnson and Jar Jar Abrams could have done differently and better, the saga we're now getting isn't that far removed from these themes. One also wonders about "the other" Yoda told Ben about in ESB. Was that always intended to be Leia? I'm honestly skeptical. If Leia had have been, she would not have been so obviously groomed as a potential love interest for Luke in the first two films. I think Leia was shoehorned into that role during the making of ROTJ, just as I also suspect that Vader was not always Luke's father, and he was shoehorned into that role in the making of ESB. I think this "other" was originally a persona not at all different from the Daisy Ridley character in this series.

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One also wonders about "the other" Yoda told Ben about in ESB. Was that always intended to be Leia? I'm honestly skeptical. If Leia had have been, she would not have been so obviously groomed as a potential love interest for Luke in the first two films. I think Leia was shoehorned into that role during the making of ROTJ, just as I also suspect that Vader was not always Luke's father...

I don't think you have to "suspect" Vader wasn't always Luke's father, that's well documented to be the case. Isn't it?

I'm not quite as certain about Leia always being the "other" hope, but she was certainly not being groomed as Luke's love interest beyond the first film. ESB was unambiguously about Leia and Han's relationship developing. I have no problem also believing they had it set at the time of ESB that Leia was Luke's sister and thus the "other".

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I think that’s common, actually, as long as the product in question is around long enough. Over time it gets watered down and marketed to a new audience and in the process changes so much that hardcore fans quit watching.

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I’ll throw out music as an example. By the mid 90s Metallica had changed so much that most of their audience was relatively new while much of their initial audience had moved on because they didn’t like what they had become.

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Honestly, you are probably right now that I think of it. I see it some with like Game of Thrones. There is an episode and "fans" hate it but the average tv watcher likes it. It;s an odd thing.

 

I do feel like there is an extra level to it with Star Wars fans. The fandom can be very incestuous. You see it right on this board. You have people who initially like a movie, but then they read others complaints or whatever and you can almost see someone post by post going from "i like this" to "I don't like this". It's almost like some people have their own complaints about a movie but then by reading others complaints they almost like put the "sum of all negativity" in their own thoughts of a movie.

 

For me, I just have a hard time seeing things that way. I always look for the positive and what I do enjoy about something. The movies exist to be enjoyed, so if I don't like a certain aspect of it I mostly won't talk about it. It's not that I don't realize flaws in all of the movies, just that I don't dwell on them. I saw Solo once and I thought it was pretty good. I didn't love it. So for the most part I haven't gone into the Solo thread much, cause why would I? Why spend time talking about a movie I just thought was pretty good. When I can talk about the Star Wars movies that I love.

 

It's like if I go to a music festival that has multiple stages going. I'm not going to go to the stage that has the band I like the least playing, I'm going to go see the band I like best. I feel like some people though just like to go watch the band they don't like.

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