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What was Lucas's original Plan for Ep. 7?


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I would like to point out that George could easily give 10 completely different takes on what his idea really was, and be completely sure on each one.

Oop the record appears to be stuck again          

I personally agree with that, and have the opposite problem - I hate when the technology is explained. Which was a total downside of the EU. Star Wars has always been more magical/fantasy than science

I actually enjoyed some of the EU, and I would say that some of it was better than the ST or Solo. But a lot of it, even the stuff I read and played, was pretty crappy, and that includes stuff that I enjoyed. In my mind, Star Wars is primarily film, but I prefer reading to watching cartoons, so the books rate higher for my personal preference. No matter how many people yell about how great it is. 
 

I’m able to hold two conflicting things in my mind: stuff can be bad and I can enjoy it. 

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36 minutes ago, Darth Virul said:

You have to ask if the same people dumping on EU are the same people raving about TCW. My experience is that TCW fans are also either SW book, comics or videogame fans

There are major problems between the two of them continuity-wise, so the people who have grown up loving the EU and are devoted to it tend to not be so favorable toward the show. Many of them have decided to exclude it from EU canon altogether since it was the only piece of the EU that followed the movies into the Disney canon. That does fix most things, but also presents other problems which I won't get into here. The Force & Destiny guides for the RPG have subtly hinted that the show was a holo-drama produced decades later from the only historical sources that were available at the time--imperial propaganda--so it that is my go-to explanation for all the discrepancies.

Reading that, I'm sure Choc and others will think I'm being too pedantic and don't know how to just have a good time, to which I will remind you that not everyone's idea of "fun" is the same. To me, thinking about this stuff is fun.

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I like how Im always singled out! Thanks. LOL

Truly though I don't really care what you like. If you like having to go through those mental gymnastics or having others do it on your behalf thats totally cool. Ill sometimes spend hours going over baseball stats so who am I to tell someone they are wasting time or whatever.

I just think that kind of stuff is so far from what really makes Star Wars great its hard to fathom. But if you enjoy it, then thats cool. But ya just gotta realize that even inside the nerd community if you are going to spend time worrying about that stuff that you are going to be made fun of for being nerdy. 

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1 hour ago, Zerimar Nyliram said:

Accomplishing absolutely nothing in so doing.

Then pay better attention.  Read slower.  

If your argument about silly ideas done well, Pee Wee's Big Adventure is the most perfect example.   Putting that in a Star Wars movie wouldn't work.  

And you're also saying fighting 50 Emperors, running out of gas and sitting in your cockpit for several chapters, riding rancor  your mention of Jedi valley where you visit and get force powers by visiting is all done well.   That's not subjective, that's truly terrible.  Can you enjoy it?   Of course.  But have enough awareness to be able to recognize it for what it is. 

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16 minutes ago, Jedigoat said:

Then pay better attention.  Read slower.  

If your argument about silly ideas done well, Pee Wee's Big Adventure is the most perfect example.   Putting that in a Star Wars movie wouldn't work.  

And you're also saying fighting 50 Emperors, running out of gas and sitting in your cockpit for several chapters, riding rancor  your mention of Jedi valley where you visit and get force powers by visiting is all done well.   That's not subjective, that's truly terrible.  Can you enjoy it?   Of course.  But have enough awareness to be able to recognize it for what it is. 

Luke never fought fifty emperors. I don't see why you find riding rancors ridiculous as sci-fi and fantasy are replete with beast riders. What's improbable about running out of fuel? And how can you know that the story of the Valley of the Jedi is terrible if you've never experienced the story? Even I'm not arrogant enough to say that Episodes VIII and IX are terrible because I've never seen them; I've only ever said I though Episide VII was garbage because that was the only one I've seen. That tells me you're just being an arrogant ass who thinks his way is the only right way.

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25 minutes ago, Zerimar Nyliram said:

Luke never fought fifty emperors. I don't see why you find riding rancors ridiculous as sci-fi and fantasy are replete with beast riders. What's improbable about running out of fuel? And how can you know that the story of the Valley of the Jedi is terrible if you've never experienced the story? Even I'm not arrogant enough to say that Episodes VIII and IX are terrible because I've never seen them; I've only ever said I though Episide VII was garbage because that was the only one I've seen. That tells me you're just being an arrogant ass who thinks his way is the only right way.

So you're making assumptions?   But I thought you said that's being an arrogant asshole?   Your argument breaks the moment you start tearing someone else down.  

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Luke did fight 50 Emperors.  Riding man eating beasts is goofy as hell.  I never said anything about the improbability of running out of gas.   You don't visit a valley and become a Force user.   I'm telling you things you already know.  

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1 hour ago, Zerimar Nyliram said:

I don't know, guys. The sequel I saw (Episode VII) seemed to me like everything you're describing the EU as being. To boot, it was just an EU story retold with different names!

Along the same lines, I can't wrap my head around how Dave Filoni's The Clone Wars is treated like it's the best thing ever around here, by the same people who dump on the EU, when the former feels to me exactly how the they describe the EU: some good stuff, some terrible, and mostly mediocre. Especially given how big the EU is and how much of it I've been exposed to, I can't help but think, this is what they adore?

But then again, you all said it: it's all subjective. None of us is right or wrong.

Who here actually raves about Clone Wars though? You’re right, some of it is extremely awful. Some of it’s fantastic. But I’d say it gets a pass from most because it’s live action and falls in the Star Wars aesthetic more than any of the written counterparts do, just simply due it’s medium. 

And Episode 7 wasn’t an EU story retold. . .it was Ep 4. 

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3 minutes ago, Jedigoat said:

So you're making assumptions?   But I thought you said that's being an arrogant asshole?   Your argument breaks the moment you start tearing someone else down.  

Where did I make an assumption? Perhaps you're the one who needs to read slower. I said Episode VII was bad because I saw it, but I can't speak for the others.

Luke did not fight fifty emperors! There were hundreds of clones of Palpatine but he only fought two of them. You still haven't explained to me what is goofy about rancor-riding, only that you think it is. I never said anything about visit a valley to become a Force user, now you're just not listening: I said a Dark Jedi wanted to siphon the power of the valley, meaning he was already a Force user. And unless you've played the game or read the novellas, stop saying something you've never seen or played is bad. Kids do that, not critically-thinking adults.

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Just now, Dark Wader said:

Who here actually raves about Clone Wars though? You’re right, some of it is extremely awful. Some of it’s fantastic. But I’d say it gets a pass from most because it’s live action and falls in the Star Wars aesthetic more than any of the written counterparts do, just simply due it’s medium. 

And Episode 7 wasn’t an EU story retold. . .it was Ep 4. 

That makes sense. And Episode VI was a rehash of both Episode IV and Legacy of the Force, with a little bit of KOTOR mixed in. And while I won't judge the quality of Episode IX, we all know it's just a rehash of Dark Empire.

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20 minutes ago, Zerimar Nyliram said:

Where did I make an assumption? Perhaps you're the one who needs to read slower. I said Episode VII was bad because I saw it, but I can't speak for the others.

Luke did not fight fifty emperors! There were hundreds of clones of Palpatine but he only fought two of them. You still haven't explained to me what is goofy about rancor-riding, only that you think it is. I never said anything about visit a valley to become a Force user, now you're just not listening: I said a Dark Jedi wanted to siphon the power of the valley, meaning he was already a Force user. And unless you've played the game or read the novellas, stop saying something you've never seen or played is bad. Kids do that, not critically-thinking adults.

It's based on your description, man.  I'm just repeating how you described it.   If you don't like how it happened, then why do you claim to like it?  There's nothing going on here BUT critical thinking.  I'm trying to get you there.   This is stuff I read in junior high.  It's very sentimental to me but I'm not that hung up on it emotionally to fake defend it.  I wanted me some SW and that's the only way it came back then.  I read it because it was SW, knowing full well that it was the male equivalent of romance novels for women, quality wise.   As they churned out more, it got easier and easier to see.   It really wasn't fair to SW fans, to expect so little of us.  

But this is off topic.  I love you, Z.  I love you.  But back on topic: 

Was George working on sequel outlines prior to the sale or was he working on outlines specifically for the purpose of helping set things up for Disney?

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We've heard different things on that. The cynical would say he wrote them just to sell them. Which didn't do much good cause Disney didn't very much use them anyway. I believe George has said that he had ideas for sequels and kinda had the itch to make them but only a little bit into the process he realized he didn't want to spend a decade of his life making them at this point.

 

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I'm thinking GL had things in the works well before selling.  Just a hunch though.  I also find it hard to believe Maul was the main baddie in George's ST.  I don't care what the SW sites are reporting.  It sounds bad, even for Lucas. 

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Here's the quote:

https://sethmsherwood.com/nerdery/IMG_0854.JPG

This was his plan, but as I said before, it's clearly an old plan as a lot of this stuff showed up in CW, Rebels, and/or Solo.

But all the early TFA concept art and Arndt's draft were based more on the ideas Lucas had in the works when he sold to Disney. It was supposedly more EU compliant ()but not fully), and that's what made the draft not work for general audiences. When JJ came on, some of that DNA was kept (like Luke's daughter "Kira" becoming Rey), but most of the ideas were tossed out.

As for EU vs on screen.... man... have we ever had this talk before? Have I said what I am about to say 23623452345 times over the last 23 years?

Star Wars was birthed as a movie. It's look, narrative style, and presentation were a unique combination of things that inspired Lucas and special effects innovations. Yes, there is a story, but it is a story that is meant to work as simplistic myth told with a visual design with very specific cues and allegory.

To me, that is the DNA of Star Wars. Just taking the characters and writing prose does not make it Star Wars. I'm one literary motherfucker, I read books constantly. This is not a dig against prose- this is me saying that the core "feels" that Star Wars gives me is a combination of all these things. 

When you give me something in a different medium, so much of that is lost, it never feels right. Worse, it feels like a lesser version. Star Wars as prose simply does not work for me. Comic books-- kinda. Video games-- mostly. Animation-- yes.

The same way people complain about movies adapted from great works of literature as falling flat (because how could a 2 hour movie do what a 600 page book does), works for the same reasons in reverse. Star Wars is a visual story, plain and simple.

 

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Tank is 100% right. Ofcourse that doesn't mean that someone can't like the books. My issue with the EU has nothing to do with how good or not it is. Im completely unfamiliar with it.  Ive never read a book nor even played a Star Wars video game. I have no idea about it.

What I find funny is that the big EU fans just never got its real place in Star Wars. For years and years they were told by the majority of fans that it was secondary. Basically made for the super fans who just couldn't get enough. They just didn't get its place. Then one day Disney comes along and actually does put the EU in its place and the fans just couldn't accept it. Despite being told its secondary status by everyone else for years and years.

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For me, and for most, it was 'something'.  We would have accepted anything that was Star Wars, and we did.  And the publishers knew it.   You do have to hand it to Dark Horse Comics and Dark Empire.  Pretty ambitious.  WAY over the top, but ambitious.  Much of it was 'repeat the movies but magnify the action by a million!'  

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