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119 replies to this topic

#51
The Choc

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The whole point of a protest is to be noticed. So doing it in a way that is guaranteed to draw notice is pretty smart.

Secondly the idea of players being forced to stand is moronic. The act of standing for the anthem is to show respect if someone is being forced to do it then what's the point? You are making someone do something that's totally meaningless. It's an empty gesture.
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#52
Metropolis

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There's no desire by either side to even out forth the smallest effort toward dialogue or understanding, because you can't have meaningful conversation in 140 characters.

You're right. But you can take a shot at someone easily in 140 characters and that's what we've apparently come to as a society.

Choc, do you remember when the players didn't take the field until after the anthem was played? We all should because it's only been 8 years since they started doing it. It was done so that we could have that nice patriotic shot of players with hands on heart. Nevermind that the Super Bowl is the only game where they actually broadcast it. I think we're going to see this change next year. For as much as the owners want to stand in solidarity they don't want this being a talking point.

#53
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Wow. My wife just text me that one of her students just now tried kneeling for the pledge of allegiance. She told him to stand or go to the principals office. I wonder what a seventh grader would have to protest?
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#54
Lord Darth Hunter

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In part it's the protest. What has people up in arms is the venue in which they are doing it. Fans don't want to go to the games and see this. Fans don't want to watch on TV and be bombarded with this. They just want to watch the games. Fans also don't understand what kneeling has to do with getting a message out. It's been a year and most fans still don't know what the players want to convey.

A year ago, when I still watched ESPN, the talking heads were defending Kaepernick by saying he was "starting a dialogue." His kneeling was not supposed to solve the problems, which ranged from racism to police brutality against minorities depending on what day you asked him about it. It was just a gesture to start the conversation. They said one guy isn't supposed to create change. It's up to all of us to do it. At the time I was thinking, ok, I guess I can accept that. And the idea seemed to be working because you had examples where one of the Bengals players met with the local police department to bring the community together and do things locally to create change. Kaepernick even stated his portion of all jersey sales would be donated to community programs in his city to help the poor. So ESPN was fond of saying, see, that's why he did it. He started the conversation, now he and others are acting on it. Awesome.

Fast forward to a year later. And now evreyones kneeling because...the message still hasn't gotten out?

#55
Metropolis

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Now I'll admit I don't watch a ton of NFL coverage other than local Bucs stuff, but has there even been a Kaepernick sighting since the end of last season other than the stuff he puts on social media?

I'll repeat that I get what the players did yesterday. If there was a cause to kneel for that was one. Trump shouldn't have called out the players and owners. Fans are upset because they're tired of seeing this and don't think it will end. Lord knows the geniuses that went to Goddell about making November social activism month have lost their damned minds. JJ Watt raised millions for hurricane Harvey relief and did it on his own time.

#56
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The players also need to stop playing the race card. We've reached a chicken little point in society about this. People don't listen when you scream racism even when there is an actual case of it. It's to the point to where they want to rip chicken little's head off because he won't shut up. Most Kaepernick hate is because no one wants to hear about him anymore.

#57
Lord Darth Hunter

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Many of the viewers who have left would have stayed if only one of the problems existed.  If it were no longer essential, but not offensive, they would still be viewers out of habit.  If it were still essential but offensive, they'd be a captive audience.

 

Not to say that they wouldn't be losing viewers either way, but putting the two together has created a purge of viewership when they would otherwise be suffering a slower trickle.  As I said, the politics is a multiplier for a problem that is out of their control.

 

Oddly enough, as ESPN went hard left and started firing all the people who didn’t fit their sociopolitical views, Fox Sports started picking those people up and as a result, has the more watchable shows now.



#58
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And now we've got a case where a player refused to stay in the locker room during the anthem because he refused to NOT stand for the anthem (Alejandro Villanueva, Pittsburgh).

 

I guess they're all expected to show no respect at all for our armed services.  Good move, NFL!



#59
The Choc

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I just wish we could live in a country where people can say or do something you don't like or agree with and not go crazy and call for jobs and boycotts

Not every player who knelt is some anti American idiot. In fact I'd say very few are. Just like the vast majority of people who fly a confederate flag aren't racists. And to be clear I don't especially like kneeling for the anthem or the confederate flag.

#60
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I think you can blame a lot of that on social media.  It tends to encourage hate/ outrage/ overreaction.

 

Just look at all of the youtube vids of people "dealing" with Hillary not winning the election.  I knew people were going to freak out about it, but damn.  I had no idea it was gonna be that bad (or funny).



#61
The Choc

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I think a lot of it is the idea that your political side is like your team. Some people won't criticize what they see as their side and they will slaughter the other side in a manner that doesn't equate to what they really feel.

#62
Lucas1138

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Many of the viewers who have left would have stayed if only one of the problems existed.  If it were no longer essential, but not offensive, they would still be viewers out of habit.  If it were still essential but offensive, they'd be a captive audience.

 

Not to say that they wouldn't be losing viewers either way, but putting the two together has created a purge of viewership when they would otherwise be suffering a slower trickle.  As I said, the politics is a multiplier for a problem that is out of their control.

 

Oddly enough, as ESPN went hard left and started firing all the people who didn’t fit their sociopolitical views, Fox Sports started picking those people up and as a result, has the more watchable shows now.

 

And yet, no one watches them. Weird.



#63
Poe Dameron

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Wow. My wife just text me that one of her students just now tried kneeling for the pledge of allegiance. She told him to stand or go to the principals office. I wonder what a seventh grader would have to protest?

 

Careful on that one.  There are Constitutional issues.

 

West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette


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#64
Metropolis

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I told her that this morning. The kid didn't really get mad. Plus other students told her that he said he was going to do it as a joke.

I just wish we could live in a country where people can say or do something you don't like or agree with and not go crazy and call for jobs and boycotts
Not every player who knelt is some anti American idiot. In fact I'd say very few are. Just like the vast majority of people who fly a confederate flag aren't racists. And to be clear I don't especially like kneeling for the anthem or the confederate flag.

Man that ship sailed a long time ago.

#65
Brando

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That ship sailed sometime around Adam and Eve, but we can still wish for better.

#66
Good God a Bear

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This whole situation has really brought the duplicity of both sides front and center.

 

Conservatives say they shouldn't be allowed to bring these protests on the field; the same group that stood behind Tim Tebow when he would kneel on the field in prayer and argued that he had the right to do so.

 

Liberals say the players have the right to protest and express their opinions on the field; the same group that mocked Tim Tebow and said he should keep his opinions and beliefs off the field. 

 

Both sides are hypocrites yet the don't see it.

 

Personally, I feel the players have the right to kneel just like Tebow had the right to kneel.



#67
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Leave it to Jerry Jones to come up with a decent compromise to this whole mess.

#68
Lord Darth Hunter

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Except I've heard various stories that criticize him and the Cowboys for attempting to play both sides.  



#69
Metropolis

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This whole situation has really brought the duplicity of both sides front and center.
 
Conservatives say they shouldn't be allowed to bring these protests on the field; the same group that stood behind Tim Tebow when he would kneel on the field in prayer and argued that he had the right to do so.
 
Liberals say the players have the right to protest and express their opinions on the field; the same group that mocked Tim Tebow and said he should keep his opinions and beliefs off the field. 
 
Both sides are hypocrites yet the don't see it.
 
Personally, I feel the players have the right to kneel just like Tebow had the right to kneel.

I'm a Gator Hater for sure, but I'll defend Tebow for a simple reason. Where and when was Tebow kneeling? On the sidelines when the offense wasn't on the field. He did it at UF, but it wasn't a thing. He gets to the NFL and it's a thing because it's part of the Tebow persona the networks wanted to push. Not his fault. It blew up so much that "Tebowing" actually became a thing. And because everyone exaggerates everything no one actually does it like he did.

If there is a parallel in both situations, it's that the media has blown up both to ridiculous proportions.

#70
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I'm not bashing Tebow. I'm using him as an example of the duplicity of both sides of the argument. The ones who are saying the players now have the right to express their beliefs/protests on the field are the same ones who made fun of Tebow and said he should keep his beliefs/opinions off the field. And vice versa. The ones who defended Tebow are now the ones bashing the players this weekend.

 

I didn't have a problem with Tebow and I don't have a problem with the players this weekend either. I have a problem with the hypocrites on both sides.



#71
Poe Dameron

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Conservatives say they shouldn't be allowed to bring these protests on the field; the same group that stood behind Tim Tebow when he would kneel on the field in prayer and argued that he had the right to do so.

 

I'm sorry, but what's controversial about that?  Multiple players kneel in prayer every single football Sunday for as long as any of us have been alive.

 

Here's the thing.  The NFL has "protected the shield" from individuality for a long time now.  It's called the No Fun League for a reason.  They've fined players for wearing unapproved clothes that support a completely benign cause like mental health awareness (Brandon Marshall fined $10,000).  They've made rule upon rule about what acceptable celebration looks like.

 

Even though a strong majority of the country found it to be disrespectful and that they've come down on much less, they allowed it to continue while on company time.  Now, I ask you, why would they have no problem coming down on someone raising awareness for mental health, but let this nebulous protest fester?

 

The simple answer is that they got scared.  Also, Goodell sucks at preventing and handling a crisis.



#72
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For **** sake...I don't know why it was controversial, Poe. I didn't have a problem with it. I was merely pointing out the duplicity of both liberals and conservatives.

 

Maybe you didn't notice but when Tebow did kneel while he was in the NFL, he was mocked not only by people watching but other players. It was also mentioned by several people that the football field wasn't a place for his beliefs and he should keep them to himself. Liberals mocked him/denounced him and Conservatives stood up for him.

 

Now, we have players kneeling during the anthem. Liberals say they have a right to express their beliefs and frustrations. Conservatives are mocking/denouncing the players for kneeling and telling them to keep it to themselves.



#73
Poe Dameron

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For **** sake...I don't know why it was controversial, Poe. I didn't have a problem with it. I was merely pointing out the duplicity of both liberals and conservatives.

 

My point was that the praying itself was never the problem and that there really was never a call for the practice to be banned in the first place.  Maybe a few people did, but not enough that it was a serious thing.

 

Tebow himself and why he became polarizing had more to do with anti-Christianity in general, not a pose.  I don't see the duplicity on that.



#74
Metropolis

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What I'm trying to say is that I don't think that "Tebowing" should have been on the same scale as what's going on now. It was the height of hypocrisy because players kneel at mid field after the game to pray. Some players point to the sky after scoring a touchdown. He did it on the sideline where it till cameras spying on him. Tebow was polarizing in part because of his beliefs, in part because people thought he was a terrible qb, and on part because players were jealous of the coverage he received.

I know what your saying and you're right. This has become a partisan argument the last couple of days and it shouldn't be.

I'll say this though, at least we know what Tebow was kneeling for.

#75
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For **** sake...I don't know why it was controversial, Poe. I didn't have a problem with it. I was merely pointing out the duplicity of both liberals and conservatives.

 
My point was that the praying itself was never the problem and that there really was never a call for the practice to be banned in the first place.  Maybe a few people did, but not enough that it was a serious thing.
 
Tebow himself and why he became polarizing had more to do with anti-Christianity in general, not a pose.  I don't see the duplicity on that.
I think it's kinda funny because the players freedom of expression technically doesn't apply in this case. But the NFL let that cat out of the bag a while ago. They bank on most people forgetting they let the Rams come out on the field "hands up don't shoot".



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