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Age of Ultron is growing on me. I hated it when it first came out but a combination of elements in it paying off later (Klue, Thor and Tony's visions) and knowing we only get a finite number of movies with this original team have made it suck less in my eyes.

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  • 1 month later...

My updated ranking.

 

1. Captain America: The First Avenger

2. Captain America: The Winter Soldier

3. Black Panther

4. Captain America: Civil War

5. Spider-Man: Homecoming

6. Avengers: Infinity War

7. The Avengers

8. Guardians of the Galaxy

9. Thor: Ragnarok

10. Ant-Man

11. Iron Man

12. Avengers: Age of Ultron

13. Doctor Strange

14. Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2

15. Iron Man 3

16. Thor

17. Iron Man 2

18. Thor: The Dark World

19. The Incredible Hulk

 

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  • 4 weeks later...

Saw six more of these and re-watched a handful of them, so, as has been long overdue for quite a while, well, time to ♫ ADJUUUUST THE RANKINGS ♫

 

19. The Incredible Hulk

 

This'n's the worst! Don't believe the contrarians. I'm not so sure where the fault lies here but I think it's with one among the following :

 

a) Ed Norton re-wrote the script to fit with his particular obsession w/playing roles defined by the idea of a divided self and just botched the job.

b) It was real early days for the script formulae of Typical Marvel Movie (I don't think there's even a tease for Hulk returning in the Avengers like there is for Thor, Cap, and Iron Man - just an RDJ cameo and that's it, maybe they hadn't quite thought that far ahead yet) and they hadn't quite worked all the kinks out.

c) Needed more money/time/what-have-you to make Hulk and Abomination put in a passable appearance - they both look horrible, nearly video game cutscene level bad.

d) Steve Tyler's Daughter hadn't quite come into her own as an actress yet (she's great nowadays) and these films live and die by the romantic lead.

e) They inexplicably refused to have Tim Roth in full monkey make-up stick his fingers in an extra's mouth and crane open their throat and then bellow out "Is there a SOUL in there!?" like he did in that bad Planet of the Apes re-boot.

 

18 & 17. Guardians of the Galaxy / More Guardians of the Galaxies

 

I see no difference in their level of quality. There's a grand total of one (1) cool looking spaceship between them - that's the little mining rig with the portable puzzle piece exterior gizmos. The presence of John Travolta, Michelle Yeoh, and Ving Rhames as the OG Guardians doesn't feel like a welcome tease for the future but somewhere between a threat directed at the main cast and an over-eager executive planning for a spin-off, I'm not sure where exactly it lies, in any case, these movies vastly overestimate how much I'll care about Space Pirate Politics. By the by, putting down my marker here, after re-watching the first one after seeing the sequel, pretty sure the mom's not actually dead. She's coming back for the threequel, same as John Wick's wife for JWIII. Count on it! (P.S. If I am wrong about either of these please do not penalize me in the official standings.)

 

16. Dr. Strange

 

I'm not quite sure if I'm right or wrong about this but I kinda figure if I had gone to college about, say, three years earlier than I actually did (in other words, if I had graduated on time and then hadn't gone overseas to study the ancient holy texts of my people) then me and Rachel MacAdams' time at York University would have overlapped. See, I'm just like Stephen Strange, my time studying under the Ancient One also kept us apart too! Stan Lee sure was right, eh, the Marvel Universe really IS the world outside My window!!!!

 

15. Ant-Man

 

There's a video essay out there floating around on Vimeo pointing out how Peyton Reed makes these raw and viscerally uncomfortable romantic comedies in the tradition of Mike Nichols and Elaine May (which he does, yeah, that movie he made where Vince Vaughn yells at Rachel from Friends off and on for an hour and a half wasn't an enjoyable watch at all, it has one single decent joke re: Michelangelo's Sistine Chapel but everything else is just nails-on-a-chalkboard level excruciatingly uncomfortable; somebody got fooled early on that Vince Vaughn has a place in dramatic or even semi-dramatic roles, he doesn't, you idiots, he's a comic actor, he's not good in serious roles, don't take him seriously just because he's tall) and that's what this felt like to me : just a really tough watch about the difficulties of avoiding recidivism, the trauma of broken families, the way our mentors and inspirations inevitably let us down, just painful. The jokes and the heists never distracted me from the emotional core of the film, except for the training montage and Paul Rudd's early exploration of his Ant-powers, those were the only two bright spots of Reed's work (well, unless I'm wrong about who did what and Peña's narration gimmick was his contribution and not a hold-out from Wright --- which could, of course, easily be the case).

 

14. Avengers III

 

Replicates just how confusing mainstream corporate-owned interconnected superhero comics can feel. I don't know, I really don't. Every big blockbuster make'em'up nowadays seems to have a part of them, a little piece of business here or there, that feels like a complete lie. A lie told by a kid in grade school, a kid who usually goes on about how his uncle works for Nintendo or he owns a complete set of Goosebumps books, I don't know, for kids today just update this to Minecraft and Forkknife, or what-have-you, anyway, the big movies always have a bit in them that feels like a kid lying about having seen the movie early and he's describing the movie to you now. When the little raptor ran around on the T.Rex's back in one of the new Jurassic Park films, yeah, that felt like a lie. When Wonder Woman's mom and the rest of her family were playing keep-away with the motherbox by, like, throwing it to each other and tying it to a rope and shooting an arrow attached to that rope, yes, that too felt like a lie. Later on in the film when the Justice League resurrected Superman by dropping that motherbox into a pool and touching it at the same time with electricity powers or whatever it was, yeah, lie. In this film that moment came when Thor whirled around an escape pod with Rocket Raccoon in it to restart a space foundry. I don't know, screenwriters, your first thought isn't always your best thought. The lies came thick and fast in this one, I don't believe they spent all those millions of dollars making a team of CGI bad guys for the CGI good guys to fight but couldn't be bothered to develop the CGI bad guys into something distinctive. I don't believe Spider-Man killed a guy, I saw that happen and sure the guy was bad (the only new bad guy they bothered to define!!) but still, killing him seems wrong. I didn't believe so much of what I saw on screen with this, I don't remember any of it now, maybe I'll revisit this before the sequel, probably not.

 

13. Thor Ragnarok

 

Look, I like Gene Hackman and The Beatles a whole lot but that didn't make me like The Royal Tenenbaums too much and I like Jeff Goldblum and Immigrant Song by Led Zeppelin a whole lot too but that didn't make me like this movie. There's one nice piece of business in it, when Korgg throws a little piece of space garbage at Huddleston's projection and snaps out "Piss off, ghost", but everything else in that particular vein didn't work at all for me, did the opposite of working, really, the movie's very consistent tone unworked the clear and direct appeal the Thor character and the Thorvelt, the Thoriverse, the Thorosophistry, look, I read all one hundred and nineteen issues of Gerry Conway's Celestial Saga, I like Thor, I like Thor comics, I like the Thor movies, you don't have to work too hard to get me to like a Thor movie. I'm not like the rest of them. I understand that not everything can be for me, sure. And I'm okay with that. But jettisoning the minor characters from the two previous films, the romantic lead (and back-up romantic lead, for good measure) from the previous two films, outright killing three minor-to-major characters, I don't know, I understand that it's commercially viable, I understand that they know they have my Thordollars so why not reach out for the rest of the Nine Worlds', okay, go with god(s). I liked the little bartender robot. I liked how Hulk gets his own crowd of people dressed like him, but with Tony & Steve those got to be hot girls in impeccably coiffed uniforms doing elaborately choreographed dance routines whereas for poor ol' Hulk it's a crowd of aliens dressed up in makeshift papier-mâché sportsfan accoutrements, I liked Tessa Thompson. Just about everything else in it designed to be likable fell flat with me, except for the ending, which I rather liked as well.

 

12. Spider-Man

11. Iron Man II

10. Iron Man

 

9. Die Formica-Menschen und the Wiessen Anglo-Saxon Protestantische Maidel

 

A substantial improvement over the first one! I should probably give it another watch to pin down specifically why that is, I don't know, I nearly always enjoy sequels more than the originals (like, for example, the new Planet-of-the-Apes flicks, the two sequels are lightyears better than the one that started off the new series; the conventional wisdom about sequels being worse is kind of reversed for me, one supposes). I don't much like how they've muddled the execution of Peña's narration gimmick by also including a sequence where an actor in-textually imitates another actor (Paul Rudd doing Michelle Pfeiffer) in addition to having the actors extra-textually imitate others (the aforesaid narration thingie). When they do the next Avengers movie after the upcoming one, once they've cleared the deck by killing off a bunch of 'em for real, they should for sure stick Evangeline Lily in there too along w/Tessa Thompson, Captain Marvel, whomever else is contractually obligated to show up, you know.

 

8. Iron Man II

 

Some combination of the introduction of a bunch of materials in this I really like (the red-and-silver costume, Jackson's Fury, Johannsen's Widow) back when that stuff appearing on the big screen still had a novelty combined with the sparseness of the script thanks to the Writer's Strike really creates a space where everything works out good for me.

 

7, 6. Avengers II and Avengers I

5. Cap II

4. Thor II

3. Thor

 

2. Black Panther

 

I suspect this may drop a lot if I ever see it again but here and now, for this moment, yeah, it's the real deal. I don't even mind the bad car chase, the sketchy politics (it's just an unending series of to-the-manner-borne aristocrats squabbling over their own personal approaches to the correct utilization of power), the fact that it's basically just a James Bond film with a less lascivious and somewhat dorkier protagonist, y'know, this lived up to the hype. Should have had T'Challa kill a few Nazis if they wanted me to put it at #1, though I suppose the Andy Serkis character does come a mite close.

 

1. It's Still Captain America, That's Unlikely To Change; If I Were Programming A Super-Hero Film Series For A Film Festival Or Recommending A Real List This Is The Only MCU One To Make The Grade, Well, So Far, Who Knows, Maybe Captain Marvel Will Surprise Me

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  • 4 months later...

Rere-RE-REEEE-revised:

 

1. Captain America: Civil War

2. Captain America: Winter Soldier

3. Iron Man

4. Spider-Man: Homecoming

5. Black Panther

6. Captain Marvel

7. Thor: Ragnarok

8. Infinity War

9. Guardians of the Galaxy

 

10. Avengers

11. Ant-Man and the Wasp

12. Ant-Man

13. Captain America: First Avenger

14. Incredible Hulk

 

15. Doctor Strange

16. Thor

17. Iron Man 3

18. Thor: Dark World

 

19. Age of Ultron

20. Guardians of the Galaxy 2

21. Iron Man 2

 

Top tier-- the MCU best, second tier, good movies, essential viewing for completion, third tier-- average, could be skipped, bottom tier-- poop movies.

 

Captain Marvel places in the top tier. This may change as the new car smells wears off. I also swapped Black Panther and Ragnarok after rewatching them. Ragnarok is super fun on the gladiator world, but the Asgard and Hela stuff is pretty weak, where as Killmonger is one of Marvel's best.

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Somehow I got to the point where there's a bunch I haven't seen. Really need to get on that.

- Ant Man

- Dr. Strange

- Guardians 2

- Spider-Man Homecoming

 

1. Avengers (still falters on re-watchability but I always go back to how freakin' much I enjoyed this in theatres)

2.. Iron Man

3. Captain America: Civil War

4. Captain America: Winter Soldier

---

5. Guardians of the Galaxy

6. Thor

7. Captain America: First Avenger

---

8. Thor: Dark World (honestly remember nothing about this movie)

9. Avengers: Age of Ultron

10. Incredible Hulk (Don't remember anything about this either, frankly)

11. Iron Man 2

12. Iron Man 3 (probably not this bad, but my expectations were so high this movie sucked)

Since this list I've seen Thor: Ragnarok, Black Panther, Doctor Strange and Infinity War. (So, still haven't seen Homecoming, Ant Man or Guardians 2)
Here's how I'd rank them now.
Tier 1 (really great, will re-watch almost any time)
1. Avengers: Infinity War (prisoner of the moment, but I really liked it)
2. Avengers (still not much can compare to seeing this for the first time)
3. Thor: Ragnarok
4. Iron Man
5. Captain America: Civil War
6. Captain America: Winter Soldier (great movie, not quite as fun as the others)
Tier 2 (I enjoy these, might watch a few minutes if I see them on TV but, eh)
7. Guardians of the Galaxy 1
8 Black Panther
9. Doctor Strange
10. Thor
11. Captain America: The First Avenger
Tier 3 (I either remember nothing (Thor, Hulk, IM2) or I actively disliked these (AoE, IM3))
12. Avengers: Age of Ultron
13. Thor: Dark World
14. The Incredible Hulk
15. Iron Man 2
16. Iron Man 3

 

 

Tier 1 (really great, will re-watch almost any time)

1. Avengers: Infinity War (Still great)

2. Avengers

3. Iron Man

4. Thor: Ragnarok

5. Captain America: Civil War

6. Captain America: Winter Soldier

 

Tier 2 (I enjoy these, good movies, but probably not super into re-watching them, will catch some bits here and there on TV if I see them)

7. Black Panther

8. Guardians of the Galaxy

9. Captain Marvel (I enjoyed this a lot! Thought it was pretty good and I liked how it kind of brought things together)

10. Captain America: First Avenger

11. Doctor Strange

12. Thor

 

Tier 3 (I either remember nothing (Thor, Hulk, IM2) or I actively disliked these (AoE, IM3))

13. Avengers: Age of Ultron (I caught pieces of this on TV a couple of times this weekend and I admit that I seemed to enjoy it more than I did originally... one more critical re-watch might bump it up to the end of Tier 2 perhaps)

14. Thor: Dark World

15. Iron Man 2

16. Iron Man 3

17. Incredible Hulk

 

Still haven't seen: Ant Man, Spider-Man: Homecoming, Guardians of the Galaxy 2, Ant Man and the Wasp

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  • 1 month later...

Rere-RE-REEEE-REEEEEEEEEEE-revised:


1. Captain America: Civil War
2. Captain America: Winter Soldier
3. Iron Man
4. Spider-Man: Homecoming
5. Black Panther
6. Captain Marvel
7. Thor: Ragnarok

8. Endgame
9. Infinity War
10. Guardians of the Galaxy

11. Avengers
12. Ant-Man and the Wasp
13. Ant-Man
14. Captain America: First Avenger
15. Incredible Hulk

16. Doctor Strange
17. Thor
18. Iron Man 3
19. Thor: Dark World

20. Age of Ultron
21. Guardians of the Galaxy 2
22. Iron Man 2

Top tier-- the MCU best, second tier, good movies, essential viewing for completion, third tier-- average, could be skipped, bottom tier-- poop movies.

Endgame cracks the top 10. Like IW, I think it was an amazing feat-- but I don't know if I'll be watching it over and over for the rest of my life. I wasn't shocked by much, it dragged here and there-- but it wins for it's level of insanity and the fact they actually got a version of the Infinity War on screen. The only thing that would have made that final battle more amazing would be if the X-Men were there... and with the Fox sale and timeline effery... I had a small glimmer of hope we'd catch Logan in there somewhere carving shit up.

 

 

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I’m probably not going to be able to see Endgame until it hits home release since I’m mostly bedridden. Same with Captain Marvel. But I have been watching the previous movies slowly. Especially been watching what’s available in 4K.

 

Age of Ultron sucks as a stand-alone, but is significantly better after seeing what follows. Whedon was over his head.

 

Dark World is awful. Worse than I remembered, and I remembered it being garbage.

 

Iron Man is great.

 

Guardians of the Galaxy is beautiful. The music alone makes for great humor, and it succeeds at being funny without coming across as a sitcom, which was my main complaint about Ragnarok, which I haven’t rewatched and may enjoy more now.

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I think this is my list - a few of them are closely matched:

 

1. Thor: Ragnarok

2. Captain America: Winter Soldier

3. Iron Man

4. Infinity War

5. Avengers Assemble

6. Captain America: Civil War

7. Endgame

8. Guardians of the Galaxy

9. Spider-Man: Homecoming

10. Thor

11. Captain America: First Avenger

12. Ant-Man

13. Iron Man 3

14. Age of Ultron

15. Black Panther

16. Captain Marvel

17. Ant-Man and the Wasp

18. Doctor Strange

19. Guardians of the Galaxy 2

20. Thor: Dark World

21. Iron Man 2

22. Incredible Hulk

 

Ragnarok was so much fun - happily watch that any time I catch it when channel hopping! Thumping soundtrack as well!

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I’m probably not going to be able to see Endgame until it hits home release since I’m mostly bedridden. Same with Captain Marvel. But I have been watching the previous movies slowly. Especially been watching what’s available in 4K.

 

Age of Ultron sucks as a stand-alone, but is significantly better after seeing what follows. Whedon was over his head.

 

Dark World is awful. Worse than I remembered, and I remembered it being garbage.

 

Iron Man is great.

 

Guardians of the Galaxy is beautiful. The music alone makes for great humor, and it succeeds at being funny without coming across as a sitcom, which was my main complaint about Ragnarok, which I haven’t rewatched and may enjoy more now.

This is all dead on. I did some rewatching too. Iron Man still holds up great, though it's crazy to see how much how different people look and feel when you compare 10 years later.

 

And you're right about Age of Ultron-- it's like a really long, expensive, backstory to the far superior Civil War, which is still my favorite I think.

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Also, the deaths in Infinity War had nothing on Coulson's death in Avengers. Super glad he has stayed out of the movies, even if they are pretending the TV shows are canon. Coulson died and it had meaning.

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1. The Avengers

2. Captain America: Winter Soldier

3. Iron Man

4. Guardians of the Galaxy

5. Avengers Infinity War

6. Black Panther

7. Captain America: Civil War

8. Spider-Man: Homecoming

9. Avengers Endgame

10. Thor: Ragnarok

11. Ant-Man

12. Thor

13. Captain America: The First Avenger

14. Iron Man 2

15. Thor: The Dark World

16. Avengers: Age of Ultron

17. Incredible Hulk

18. Captain Marvel

19. Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2

20. Iron Man 3

21. Ant-Man and The Wasp

22. Doctor Strange

 

Watching Endgame again I couldn't help but think that Wakanda at night kinda looks like Coruscant.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I'm just going to put this out there: I ignore The Incredible Hulk as part of the MCU. With the huge casting change, and Ruffalo doing a better job with the character, it feels off. It's not so much that it's bad as it just doesn't fit.

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  • 2 weeks later...
  • 1 year later...

Time once again to rework this list. I know Wandavision is a TV show, but it is part of the tapestry of the movies with ties to Age of Ultron, Infinity War, Endgame, Dr. Strange, and Captain Marvel.

I've also, in covid boredom/insomnia, been rewatching most all of the MCU. Some hold up better than others. Some that I used to strongly dislike and have not rewatched before, fare better when they serve to support other films. Others that I championed turned out to be not so great at all with fresh eyes. Others have seemed to get better with age.

Where as before my list was edited as movies came out, this time I have some pretty big changes.

First-- the top ten:

1. Captain America: Civil War
2. Endgame
3. Infinity War
4. Captain America: Winter Soldier
5. Wandavision
6. Captain Marvel
7. Iron Man
8. Spider-Man: Homecoming
9. Black Panther
10. Thor: Ragnarok

To me, these are the best Marvel has to offer and should not be missed. While my one problem with the MCU in general is that they all fall into a very specific formula. These top ten are no exceptions, but they stand out for one, or some combination of these three things: A-- they offer a slightly different POV compared to other MCU films, and the superhero genre as a whole. B-- they are bending in elements of other genres to become more unique. C-- they deliver such great moments (fan service or otherwise) than you want to just watch over and over.

The next seven...

11. Guardians of the Galaxy
12. Avengers
13. Spider-Man: Far From Home
14. Ant-Man 
15. Ant-Man and the Wasp
16. Age of Ultron
17. Captain America: First Avenger

...are still great films that I enjoyed. They all just have some sort of singular big flaw to them. For most, it's a villain problem. I think Marvel has a villain problem in general in that most of their badguys just fit the age-old JamesBond/Star Wars/superhero archetype with the "I want to rule the world" type motivation, which is just tired. 

That said, if there's one thing Marvel excels at, it is casting. Even with a thread-bare villain, you can count on them to be engaging with their cast. GOTG's Ronan is as thin as it gets, but I could watch that movie over and over because of the cast and how fun it is.

The next four are otherwise not-great movies that only survive on that premise...

18. Guardians of the Galaxy 2 
19. Thor
20. Iron Man 2
21. Doctor Strange

...these are just.. problematic. But again, I could watch Rocket and Quill banter forever, or Tony Stark being snippy, or Thor being ridiculous. Dr. Strange is not a character I think can carry a movie. I think he works better as a supporting character. His banter with Wong is what saves his movie. Hope the next one is better.

Which brings us to the poop movies...

22. Incredible Hulk
23. Thor: Dark World
24. Iron Man 3

...these are just weak fail at trying to be more interesting and impactful than they are. Dark World just feels like a bunch of nonsense with characters you don't care about. IM3 and (and 2) were bnoth kind of a mess, and clearly made up as they went, which they've pretty much admitted. Hulk... I used to defend this movie so much because I love Hulk, and it was a great origin story/ But after years of Ruffalo doing such a great job with the part this movie just feels like it doesn't even belong. If it weren't for General Ross and Tony's cameo it almost doesn't even fit in the MCU. And as much as I am a Hulk fan, like Strange, Hulk has been so much more enjoyable as a supporting character in the other movies.

A few thoughts-- the aforementioned villain problem is truly a game-changer. Giving Thanos real motivation, making Killmonger borderline in the right, bringing Bucky back as Winter Soldier, Wanda losing her shit, or on the case of Civil War, having them turn on each other-- these make for their best films. A villain questing for power for the sake of power just doesn't interest me anymore.

Both GOTG films would be top ten for me easy if Ronan and Ego weren't so bleh. This is what made me take these up higher on the list while Hulk and Dark World dropped.

The biggest shift though was Age of Ultron, which I formerly called a poop-movie. I went back and watched it after Wandavision started since both Wanda and Vis debut in that film, and it was a lot more fun than I recalled. The complaints everyone has about it, including Joss Whedon, that it seems to spend so much time setting up other things than being its own story is still true-- but now that the tapestry is filled out and all those things it was setting up have come out, it is a much more enjoyable watch.

In a weird way, it makes me feel like how the PT should have. Like if I started Wandavision and then went to watch AOU for the first time, it would feel like a fun glorified backstory.

Endgame and Infinity War, which I always liked, have improved with age and made it close to the top of the list. To see all the pieces come together and give movies where most everyone still has at least one good moment... you just have to give props to Fiege. To have this much content, with different writers and directors, all feel like a cohesive world with characters that move between said stories-- and for them to all to come together in a pair of movies that deliver on being great... you got to respect that.


 

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Just wanted to add that the smartest things they did were letting Chris Hemsworth be funny, letting RDJ support/lead movies that weren't sole IM films, and give us Sam Jackson as the glue.

And probably making GOTG int he first place. While Thor showed us other worlds, GOTG really did the work that built up the MCU on a galactic sense which helped Infinity War, Endgame, Captain Marvel, and Ragnarock work as well as they did.

I remember when it came out DC/WB had just made some crazy claim about not thinking a Wonder Woman movie was right for the marketplace, meanwhile Marvel was all "Hey-- here's a talking Raccoon with a machine gun."

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I can't argue with anything you said. I really wish that Thor hadn't taken place on Earth, the best parts were the epic Asgardian scenes. I get why it happened the way it did, but it really could have been so much better. 

But as bad as IM 3 was, Thor 2 is way worse. Like there's no excuse for that movie to exist, and it has zero redeeming features. The entire world is worse off because Marvel made Thor 2.

I also think that Strange has worked MUCH better in smaller roles, and I hope that the sequel works better than the original. Marvel is iffy on sequels.

The best thing Marvel has done is casting. They deserve a lot of credit. I hope that continues.

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It sounds like we have at least Wanda in the next Dr. Strange movie. If they add somebody else and a memorable villain, it would work.

Iron Man 2 grew on me. I forgot how fun Whiplash and Hammer actually are. Hammer should come back in a post-Tony world as a bigger villain. Really, my big problem with that movie was Howard Stark had invented a new element but couldn't create it, hid the plan for it in a model, assumed Tony would finish it, and also, through great coincidence, it would happen to cure the palladium poisoning Tony was suffering from. Seemed like a real roundabout way of doing things. 

I would also add that Natasha was also good glue as Fury was and it's criminal she had to wait so long for her own movie.

Maybe it's a different thread, but I have a lot of "best of" moments from the whole run of films.

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13 hours ago, Tank said:

Maybe it's a different thread, but I have a lot of "best of" moments from the whole run of films.

The "Puny God" scene in Avengers 1 is still my favorite moment. 

 

Black Widow: not only is it criminal she didn't get her own movie until now, but they never should have killed her off, either.  Iron Man and Vision I get, but its almost like every major Top Tier Avenger died, either in Infinity War and came back in Endgame, or was killed off permanently in Endgame (Cap lives but is effectively killed, Hulk was "killed" in a way in Infinity War).   Killing Natasha was gratuitous and unnecessary.

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