Game of Thrones, Seasons 7 and 8

[Odine]

 

 

It's 100% about Jon's parentage in that he is now Rhaegars trueborn son rather than a bastard son. You are right that Jon may at first not care but follow the show down the course. The two claimants of the Throne now are Cersei and Dany. We know Cersei is crazy and awful. Now we see Dany burning prisoners alive which is basically what the Mad King did to start Robert's Rebellion. What if she continues down this path. What happens if Jon comes to the conclusion that Dany is not a good Queen and that he HAS to rule. Being the true Targaryan heir and having a better claim to the Throne than Dany would come in handy.

 

Plus how will Dany react when she hears this news that not only is Jon Rhaegars son, but he is his trueborn son and thus the rightful Targaryan heir to the Throne? She may take the news too well.

We just don't have the time - even as they sprint toward the finish line with increasingly little care for detail or nuance. I agree with all your points, I just don't see how they'll fit that conflict in.

 

My personal belief is that yes Dany is descending into "Mad Queen" territory and she's growing increasingly dark. I believe she's not going to survive the series. So I think (as Odine alluded to) if Jon ends up on the Iron Throne, which he doesn't want at this point, it's going to be because he saved the realm not because he's Rhaegar Targaryen's trueborn son.

Nailed it. Basically what I was trying to allude to.

 

And Choc, I know the annulment was 100% about johns parentage but I was trying to allude rather than be explicit in my wording for people who haven't read the books or remain spoiler free. But I acknowledge at this point it is probably pointless...

[Odine]

Double post

[The Choc]

Jon's parentage is one of the central mysteries of the whole story. When Benioff and Weiss approached Martin about adapting it Martin asked them who jons parents were. I don't think we can dismiss any revelations about it. Like I said why even mention it if it's not going to play at least a small part.

[Lucas1138]

Because the show is past that point. We're not talking about the books. We're not talking about the show adapting the books. We're talking about David and Dan's flight of fancy, panicked rush to the finish line.

 

I just don't think there's time for it to play some grand part in the story.

[Odine]

It might not happen until the final episode ever when everyone (leadership wise) is dead, except John and some other contender. And someone has to lead, and whammy.. Tarly remembers the annulment says John is Rhegar's legitimate son and boom. Everyone wants him as king.

 

 

Or it might not happen like that.

 

Another central theme of this show is that birthright matters precisely jack-shit when it comes to leadership, the throne or the quest for power. Power and/or successful leadership comes from deeds either good or bad, and willpower. Birthright is a lingering complication, or a legal technicality, or an obstacle in the Way when we talk of themes or morality of the show. If birthright were a central theme, then we will see John and Gendry become enemies out of duty as throne claimants, or they will bury (the non existing) hatchet and put birthright aside and put deeds/respect first.

 

The mystery in Johns parentage is a central one. No denying it. But I think the importance of it is going to be more personal than of huge importance. He will know he is not a bastard. To know ones parentage is an important thing, but the moral will be it is also irrelevant... In that he is a "hero" or a strong leader because of his actions not because who his dad was. His legitimacy is an added boon, that perhaps arrives at a politically opportune time. But other than that....? I'm not so sure.

[The Choc]

You are right. They are going crazy fast. Glossing over important stuff in a scene or two. So then why would they have a scene where the only thing of note in it is when gilly reads about the anullment? Nothing else happens in the scene that matters. The whole point of th scene is to put that info out there.

[Lucas1138]

Counter- it served as the catalyst for Sam getting fed up with "reading about the accomplishments of greater men" and leaving the Citadel.

 

It's not that I don't understand your point, I'm just doubting the ability to execute.

[The Choc]

I think they are going so fast that there may be a lot after the war with the walkers. I'm starting to think there could easily be 3 episodes after the walkers are beaten back. Then it could be jon vs dany. And that bit of info could play a part in a few ways. Could spur Jon to challenge for throne. Could push dany over edge. Maybe someone like littlefinger uses it to try to drive a wedge between them.

 

Prior to this week I didn't think that whether Jon was true born or not would play any role on show. I thought in books it would. I didn't think show would even broach the subject. But they have. I think they put it out there for some reason.

[The Choc]

I'll admit it's purpose could be as simple as to show the audience and characters that Rhaegar was not a kidnapping rapist and that they were in love. That could make sense too. Most characters think Rhaegar kidnapped and raped lyanna. So when Jon hears he is their son he could be like 'geez I thought being a bastard was bad now I'm the son of a rapist'. But then he finds out that's not the case.

 

 

That would be fine too. I just don't think the line was put in there to not play some, even small, part later.

[Lucas1138]

I think they are going so fast that there may be a lot after the war with the walkers. I'm starting to think there could easily be 3 episodes after the walkers are beaten back.

I've begun to consider this as a pretty realistic option - but I think it would prove to be really disappointing. Not the Jon v. Dany part, that would be awesome. But the fact that the White Walkers would be dealt with so swiftly.

 

The Others are literally the very first threat we're presented with in the entire series. Winter is coming, we've heard on and on for 7 years. Now winter is here (kind of! it hasn't even snowed in King's Landing. There's knee deep snow in King's Landing at the end of A Dance With Dragons!). It would be really disappointing if we don't see the realm ravaged by the Walkers and the army of the dead.

[The Choc]

My guess is the book will have hundreds of pages dealing with the war. Whereas the show I could see one episode of walkers rampaging through the north intercut with the humans making some plans. Then one episode like blackwater or battle of bastards that is all battle. Maybe an extra long episode. I just don't think we are gonna see like 5 huge battles featuring thousands of dead and dragons

 

I don't think it will be disappointing for it to be somewhat quick. As long as there is a real price to pay for the victory. .

[Odine]

I don't think John is gonna make it. Hes already dead, really.. in that he died and he's come back to serve a singular purpose. To end the threat of the others, that is all. That is the singular reason for his resurrection. My feeling is that he will go out rather spectacularly and be held as a hero. But I don't think he is going to live on post walker invasion. I think his honesty and sacrifice will go on to fuel Dany to become a great Queen, and her loss (of Jon obvs) and unrequited love for him will be what motivate her to rule justly, free from the madness the show is teasing at the minute. At least, that is the "bittersweet" plot I predict. Unless of course its too predictable (which it kinda is) and the show tries to throw a curve ball in there somehow.

[The Choc]

That's a fair theory, but I mean if you don't think there is time for Jon's parentage to play a major role I don't see how you think there is time for Dany and Jon to fall in love to the point where after Jon's death Dany's entire being is about honoring him.

[Kyrian]

Maybe someone like littlefinger uses it to try to drive a wedge between them.

 

I feel like at this point that it's been established that Jon isn't the kind of character who'd allow that to happen. Plus, with the shenanigans that's clearly going to kick off between Arya and Littlefinger soon, it seems far more likely that he's positioning himself to support Sansa, push her to become queen rather than Jon.

That's a fair theory, but I mean if you don't think there is time for Jon's parentage to play a major role I don't see how you think there is time for Dany and Jon to fall in love to the point where after Jon's death Dany's entire being is about honoring him.

We're already seeing it - the scene where Jon "meets" Drogon? Tell me that look on Daeny's face isn't her softening towards him considerably. She's already seeing him as at least someone who could be worthy at this point, rather than just some pretender who wants to stake out his own kingdom in "her" land. Jon's already demonstrated his commitment to his people and to defeating the White Walkers by standing up to her, multiple times, so at this point, he's not just some stranger who wants to be King, he's a man trying to do what needs to be done in the best way possible, which I think is how she sees herself (only Jon is the one actually doing it out of necessity, she's doing it because she sees it as her birthright and therefore duty).

[DANA-kin Skywalker]

Jon's death up until this point hasn't had much consequence: it created an odd loophole for him to end the nights watch, but that's it. He's been pretty much the same person before and after. So I ask myself: how will this impact his claim to the throne? He probably doesn't want the throne, and if someone told him he was Raegar's son he probably wouldn't believe it. However, what if Dany were to find out? Her asking about Jon getting stabbed in the heart is going to be important; things are moving along so fast that no line of dialogue is a throw-way line. How does him dying affect the line of succession? Would Dany use that information against him to weaken his claim and strengthen hers? "Sorry, but when you died, your claim to the throne got passed over, for if it doesn't, you are still bound to the Nights Watch oath by the very same logic. You are not eligible for kinghood either way.". Something like that? Dany seems to like Jon, at least as a person, and seems to respect him as a leader, but she seems like she wouldn't let anyone stand in her way and might cast him aside if she thought it cost her the throne.

[DANA-kin Skywalker]

...and I'm surprised nobody had mentioned this plan to capture a wight walker and bring it to Cersei. This is the worst idea I've ever heard, from a character-logic standpoint. I can't believe Jon of all people didnt object to the dangers of trying to pluck one of these things from the huge army and bring it back with them. I can't believe Tyrion didn't object to meeting with Cersei like that; she's going to most certainly stab them in the back at the meeting.

 

That being said, this super fun, rag-tag team of all star zombie hunters is going to be cool as hell to watch together.

 

I totally see this backfiring on them, they end up bringing the entire horde to kings landing, Jamie making a choice to betray Crazy Queen Cersei and joining forces with Jon and Dany to deal with the problem. Maybe he'll end up killing Cersei much like he did the mad king. Whatever happens, this zombie-capture plan is definately going to backfire on them.

[Odine]

Even if Cersei sees one with her own eyes, I doubt she will be moved. She'll shrug her shoulders and be like "and?" Her assistant appears to be a skilled Necromancer. (The mountain and all that). So I doubt she is frightened or going to suddenly see the light even momentarily, at the sight of a single walking corpse.

[Kyrian]

I wonder how Cersei will react to the dragons, as I feel like Daeny may end up relying on their presence to keep Cersei in line and possibly thwart any assassination attempt against her (let's face it, Cersei WILL try and wipe the lot of them out, it's just a case of figuring out how she's going to try it).

[DANA-kin Skywalker]

Cersei won't be anywhere near the dragons. She will set a trap and be elsewhere. That's how she operates. We've seen one scorpion ballista in action and how an effective anti-air cannon it is. Imagine how effective an entire volley of those bolts would be. Line the castle turrets and walls with them nice and high. If a dragon flies near it, it's gone.

 

Okay, everyone put your tin foil hats on:

 

Now...it's called the scorpion presumably for a reason; scorpion stingers are venomous...there's a good chance Drogon got poisoned in the shoulder when it got tagged by Bron. How appropriate considering how the dragon's namesake died. They could be down to two dragons soon; one for Dany and one for Jon.

 

Dany rides Viserion. Viserys was a sissy and an entitled, impatient douche. Dany is starting to show a tiny bit of those terrible qualities, at least in teenie tiny doses. It would be poetically tragic for her to ride Viserion straight for the Queens chambers in great haste, and fly right into a volley of of scorpion bolts in a trap set by Cersei. Viserion could get tagged in the head for extra poetry. Kyburn already foreshadowed this when he demonstrated to Cersei and wrecked her priceless dragon skull. Recall Viserys got impatient and angry, and the dothraki dumped molten gold on his head and gave him his "golden crown". Cersei has golden hair, and her trap relies on Dany to be hasty and angry. Now it's not a perfect fit, but as close as I can make it.

 

Jon of course rides Rhagal because of his father (and process of elimination if you've been following along). Jon sees Dany's in trouble, swoops in and mounts a rescue (and possibly mounts something else as well at some point). He uses the dragon as defense and rescue rather attack. Jon and Dany make a narrow escape, but poor Rhaegal gets wounded in the process. He instead coveres their escape, holding off the enemy sacrificing himself. This kind of chivalrous, heroic act mirrors what I envision Rhaegar would have been like from what I've heard. Rhaegar died trying to defend his father at the battle of the trident, so this dragon death is fitting.

[The Choc]

Rhaegar didn't die trying to defend his father. In fact in all likliehood Rhaegar had plotted to overthrow his father because he knew he was mad. He was fighting for Lyanna and Jon.

 

I also don't see any of the dragons dying during a small time battle like the loot train battle.

[DANA-kin Skywalker]

I see. I meant to say son not father, at any rate. Also I'm trying to remember what people who've read the books have told me about the guy. At any rate, he seemed like a pretty noble guy.

 

I think the dragons kind of have to die at some point. They are just too overpowered. It's like, the team with the dragons win. Dany gets people to kneel because they are scared to death of these things, giving the illusion of choice. With the dragons at her disposal, she becomes a tyrannical despot at best, and a villian at worst, although nowhere near Cersei. Without the dragons, she could be a good queen.

 

I like to think of dragons as nuclear bombs. This whole saga is a story about death being the enemy. I feel like they have to die for there to be any kind of ending, bittersweet or otherwise.

[The Choc]

She may lose dragons but it would be at the hands of the White Walkers I think.

 

As for Rhaegar, obviously book and show can be different. However the "official" story of him kidnapping and raping Lyanna Stark are certainly not true. My personal theory on Rhaegar is this, an it's obviously more informed by the books than the show but overall it should somewhat go along with the show too.

 

Rhaegar knew his father was mad and plotted with Lords throughout the 7 Kingdoms to peacefully get him off the throne and give it to Rhaegar. This is the famous "Southron Ambitions" theory whereby so many of the great houses inter-married, which was normally rare. Usually the great house would marry their children off to lesser houses in their own Kingdom. For instance a Stark would marry a lesser Northern Lords child rather than say a Lannister or Tyrell. However just before Robert's Rebellion the Great Houses began to marry each other, to strengthen their alliance.

 

Meanwhile Rhaegar started to believe he may be "The Prince Who Was Promised" and looked more and more into the prophecy. This coupled with the fact that he corresponded with his Great Great Great Uncle Aemon on the Wall lead him to believe that the White Walkers were real. So he believed that there had to be a Prince Who Was Promised. At some point he believed it would be his son, however not the son he already had. He believed it had to combined Ice and Fire, which is why he sought out Lyanna Stark. The two genuinely fell in love and Rhaegar eventually married her and they produced Jon Snow, hopefully the Prince Who Was Promised.

 

However Lyanna was already engaged to Roberty Baratheon and this ofcourse lead to the events that lead to Roberts Rebellion. All the alliances to take Aery's off the Throne and replace him with Rhaegar fell apart when Rhaegar ran off with Lyana.

 

 

How will this affect the show? Probably just to the point that Jon is "Ice and Fire" and The Prince Who Was Promised.

[DANA-kin Skywalker]

That makes a ton of sense. Prophecies are always fickle. Running away from prophecies tend to unintentionally fulfill them, and fulfilling prophecies intentionally tend to blow up in your face before coming true. It certainly blew up in Rhaegar's. Your son will be the PWWP, but not before your wife dies, you die, your batshit crazy father dies and has his throne usurped from your family, and the dead will rise before your son saves the world that got screwed up mostly because of you in the first place.

[Stevil]

Makes me laugh how many of you lot moaned about the boring episodes from previous seasons and when they shorten the series and cut out a lot of the "boring" exposition you still moan because now they're rushing to the finish line.

 

There's no magic teleporter. They're just not showing "on the way" any more to fit in more stuff.

[The Choc]

I doubt I ever complained about episodes being boring. The only time the show dipped in quality was the first half of season 5.