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Game of Thrones, Seasons 7 and 8


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#26
Lucas1138

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I'm highly annoyed by this show sometimes.

 

I still like it and look forward to it but ugghhhhhhhhhhhh.

 

(Coherent thoughts later)



#27
The Choc

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I loved this episode, really nearly every single thing about it.

 

Cersei is now in a much stronger place. The events of tonight take Dorne out of play, put the Reach on her side and now the Iron Islands totally on her side. Looks like Dany will have to use the Dothraki to take the Throne, which she obviously doesn't want to do. That is, ofcourse, unless Jon convinces her to turn her attention North.

 

Im not a fan of Euron but what happened tonight needed to happen. Dany was in too strong a position relative to Cersei prior to that battle. Now they are on more even terms.



#28
Lucas1138

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Agree on that aspect (Euron stuff needing to happen), where I'm frustrated is that it's just so not earned - for my reasons last week. I liked the episode in a vacuum, but in context there were things I had problems with.

 

Here's the thing about Dany vs. [anyone]. Strength is still on her side. There's nothing - short of the death of all three dragons - that could place anyone in a position of power over her. Aegon conquered the Seven Kingdoms with 3 dragons and like 1,000 people. The key, as Tyrion mentioned, is making sure there's a kingdom worth ruling once you're done.



#29
The Choc

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There are storylines on the show that just aren't as strong as needed, Dorne and Iron Islands stuff chief among them. They took a hatchet to Feast and Dance. Storm of Swords got 20 episodes for 1 book, Feast and Dance essentally 10 episodes for 2 books. Stuff got lost along the way. It's not an excuse, just a fact. Martin messed up those books with how he chose to write them and the show dealt with it in the best way they could. Or at least tried to.

 

Im going to look more at the repercussions of what Euron did. Tyrion's plan of attack, didn't work. He stressed the importance of a Westerosi army and now they have no Westerosi army. Dorne is out of play, and maybe loyal to the crown with Ellaria Sand as a potential hostage now and The Reach is at least partially and probably fulling going to back Randall Tarly. What is the fallout from this? Will Dany listen to Tyrion any more? Will she rain Fire and Blood down upon the Kingdoms now? When Jon shows up and she is like "bring your army here so we can attack Cersei" and he says "no, we have to fight ice zombies" how exactly is she going to take it? Is she going to say "oh ok, I gotcha" or is she gonna say "bend the knee, bring your men or you don't go home?"



#30
Lucas1138

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There are storylines on the show that just aren't as strong as needed, Dorne and Iron Islands stuff chief among them. They took a hatchet to Feast and Dance. Storm of Swords got 20 episodes for 1 book, Feast and Dance essentally 10 episodes for 2 books. Stuff got lost along the way. It's not an excuse, just a fact. Martin messed up those books with how he chose to write them and the show dealt with it in the best way they could. Or at least tried to.

 

This is a huge part of it. I like the show, I really do. I look forward to it every week. I think it will ultimately be a satisfying conclusion/story.

 

But oh my god the frustration of this point just bubbles over every week. I wish I could watch without this coloring my viewpoint but it's hard.



#31
The Choc

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I don't know or even think this will play a role on the show (it could in the books) but remember Aegon and his sisters were around dragons their whole lives. They knew how to ride them and control them. Dany has ridden some but not alot and the other 2 dragons currently have no riders. It's not quite the same as Aegon and his sisters. Like I said Im not sure it will matter but it could. There could be a scene where its like "ok lets take these dragons to battle" and there is no one to ride them.



#32
The Choc

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I think part of it as book readers is this: Early seasons we had books, great books, to fall back on. If something was streamlined (which happened less in early seasons, as I've pointed out the first 3 books had 40 episodes, the next 3 had only 20) we could look back on what "really" happened and accept the show as almost like an amazing highlights show to the book. Now that we are passed the books, the show is the whole thing. We can't go back and in our own minds add small details from the books.

 

Now none of this is a criticism, its still my favorite show by 100 miles. It's still amazing. It still provides moments that make you sit up and notice.



#33
irishdancer2

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Man, that ending was... uck, it was so unsatisfying. Euron is a ****ing psycho, but he's not even one that's fun to watch. It's just so damn depressing.

 

I took notes on other things in the episode but I don't even really care about them at this point...

 

*I dislike old man Tarly on principle, but I did like that he was willing to question Cersei to her face. The others just seemed so easily taken in. I don't expect loyalty from too many people these days, but I do expect them to question Lannisters (even if they don't do it openly).

*I don't know that anyone believed Varys was really in danger from Dany, but it was good to hear his responses to her. "Is that a good servant?" Bitch, no. That's a servant who is way smarter than you are and knows what's up.

*I groaned a bit at the beginning of their scene, but Greyworm and Missandei were surprisingly touching. I don't know how that all worked out for him logistically, but...

*Sam and Jorah... sheesh. I'd forgotten Sam's link to Jeor Mormont. It was heartwarming to see how far his loyalty extended, but that treatment scene was hard to watch with how much pain Jorah was in. I kept expecting it to cut away a lot sooner than it did.

*Arya's face when she hears Jon took back Winterfell. That moment of complete open vulnerability was beautiful. Same with her Nymeriah moment, though I'm still hoping for more of that later on. Also, there's no indication she killed those guys from last week! Yay!

*Sansa’s sure doing a great job of that not questioning Jon in front of everyone thing… I hope her attitude toward Littlefinger stays consistent with last week's, and I hope Brienne stays CLOSE. I DO think that Sansa finally truly has the upper hand over him and fully understands his game, so I'm starting to trust her.

*Jon’s face when he turned to look at Littlefinger in the tombs deserves a mention all its own. Priceless perfection.



#34
Ryn

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Well, this episode nicely tied up with a bow how utterly useless show-Dorne is. As a kingdom and as a story.

Except for Oberyn.
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#35
The Choc

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Just read a cool idea, although it's only half complete.

 

It's starting to see likely that Samwell will be the one to write "A Song of Ice and Fire" after the events of the show. So this guy on the Ringer suggests that after the end of the show, maybe post credits, maybe not we flash to the future and from behind see Sam writing a book. A novice Maester walks in and says "Maester Samwell, how is the book coming" and Samwell turns around and is played by George RR Martin.

 

That's basically what the guy on The Ringer said. But he is missing the obvious last line. After showing Martin playing Sam the novice needs to say "Are you ever going to finish that?" The End.



#36
Darth Krawlie

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I mean I get it, but that'd cheese it up way too much for me
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#37
Lucas1138

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That whole thing seems to be clearly where the show is going (the astrolabe showing up in the Citadel, Maester Ebrose and Sam's conversation last night) - and people have long speculated that the Maesters are the storytellers in-universe and that's where Sam is headed, especially as Sam is basically a proxy for GRRM.

 

It's dumb as hell.



#38
The Choc

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They won't do the joke I said I get that. But I don't see it as cheesy to have Sam write the book or to have Martin play him. It would be a nod to LOTR.

#39
Lucas1138

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It's just so.... tropey.



#40
The Choc

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Who cares? You are taking these too seriously. I honestly don't think they will do a post credits scene or have Martin play him. I do think though that after the main action of the show is over Sam will reference writing a book. Probably on the hope that it will teach future generations to not make the same mistakes of this generation. Something along those lines.



#41
Odine

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Sam to be the author is not a far fetched idea. And is concept that's been done many times in other books/films. It would work. But to have GRR Martin play him would be downright awful. And with the line about finishing it?? No offense but that's one of the most skin crawling, cringe worthy, cheesey ideas I've heard in a while. Its a bit like taking a big tube of squirty liquid cheese sauce and spraying it all over your paella. You weren't being serious about that were you??
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#42
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It makes sense in a way, but the Song is much, much more expansive than Samwell's perspective. I don't think he's long-lived enough to gather all the detail. Unless maybe Bran is a co-writer and Three Eye Ravening in stuff.

#43
Lucas1138

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Who cares? You are taking these too seriously. I honestly don't think they will do a post credits scene or have Martin play him. I do think though that after the main action of the show is over Sam will reference writing a book. Probably on the hope that it will teach future generations to not make the same mistakes of this generation. Something along those lines.

Taking what too seriously? I agree with everything you've said - that's the direction the show is headed. I think it's a dumb idea and turns the ham level up to 10. Oh well, I'm not losing any sleep over it.


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#44
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#45
DANA-kin Skywalker

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Taking what too seriously? I agree with everything you've said - that's the direction the show is headed. I think it's a dumb idea and turns the ham level up to 10.

But THESE go to 11

One thing the show loves to do is to end an episode with a shock, then jump to credits (west world did the same thing).

On the one hand, I think if the last episode of the last season was Sam Tarley looking up from his book showing GRRM's face for a moment before it jumps to credits could supply that shock value for that final episode.

On the other hand, the show doesn't typically do things that are meta. Or hammy. Or cheesy. Or ham and cheese.

#46
irishdancer2

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That GRRM thing sounds terrible. Don't do it, Got. Seriously. Don't.



#47
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Some thoughts

 

I agree that the storylines on the Iron Islands and in Dorne are lacking and this is I think what the show runners decided to do. The first 4 seasons of the show/first 3 books deal with in alot of ways a Civil War between the Lannisters, Starks and Baratheons. Obviously you have the Wall and Dany storylines but the main storyline is the War of the 5 Kings. Now at the end of Book 3 that Civil War is basically over. At least the main part of it. When Martin started Books 4 and 5, which are essentially the same book, he started new storylines with new characters while still continuing the stories of the characters who survived the War. The showrunners decided they wanted to concentrate on the characters already on the show rather that any new ones. So they basically either completely axed (Aegon, whatever J'qen is doing at the Citadel) or they reduced the stories to their most basic and only used them when they absolutely had to (Dorne, Iron Islands). Whether that was right or not, hard to say.

 

On to the actual show. I'm intrigued but this Dany-Jon meeting but I'm pretty sure it won't go well. Dany and Jon are essentially good guys right now but they have completely different goals. Jon truly has no ambitions of his own. He only wants to save Westeros from the Walkers. He doesn't seek or even want any throne. Dany wants to be a good Queen but she still really wants to be Queen. She told Tyrion to invite Jon to bend the knee. I don't think Tyrion put that in the letter he sent. They have totally different expectations of their meeting. Jon is expecting to go as equals and try to form an alliance. Dany is expecting him to pledge fealty to her and for him to do what she says, which is basically give her his army and go fight Cersei. Jon isn't going to do this. I don't think Dany is going to go "oh ok, well agree to disagree good luck against those ice zombies". I expect Dany to perhaps be a bit less liked by the end of this weeks episode

 

A couple other things about the goings on at Dragonstone. I wonder how long Tyrion will be in Dany's good graces. The first bit of military advice he gave her in Westeros failed. Dany has Olenna in her ear about not listening to men. Also Tyrion is a Lannister and probably not liked by Olenna. How long until Olenna whispers in Dany's ear the possibilty that Tyrion is a Lannister mole? It wouldn't seem far fetched to Dany as she would not know about the relationships of the Lannister siblings.

 

Lastly I'm also wondering about Varys' long term loyalty. I thought the scene last week between Varys and Dany was basically to show that Dany is willing to listen to criticism but still demands loyalty. But now I'm not so sure. I think it was to put the idea out there that Varys is looking for the best possible Monarch, which right now he believes is Dany. What happens when he meets Jon Snow? The Jon Show who doesn't think he deserves the throne or that the throne belongs to him. The one who truly only wants to serve the people? The one who truly looks at Kingship as a responsibility rather than a right? The one who got ancient enemies like the North and the Wildlings to join common cause against a common enemy? How long until Varys decides that King Jon is the best option for the realm?


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#48
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After this episode, I'm more convinced than ever that Jon and Tyrion should rule together. Their rapport, their mutual respect, the candor they have in each other's presence, and the talent for leadership they both have would make them a wonderful pair. Davos can help, too. Dany... she might have good intentions, but the way she has waltzed into Westeros and just expects everyone to bend the knee leaves a foul taste. I wouldn't really expect someone who think she's a queen to behave any differently, but the contrast between her behavior and Jon's just leaves her looking worse. She's acting a little too entitled and high-and-mighty for someone that people are right to be wary of--she's a foreigner (for all intents and purposes), her father was certainly not someone to miss, and the people don't know her. No one in Westeros knows her--how can she expect them to just believe in her? Jon's line about not knowing who she is was perfect, and I don't see how her advisors have failed to convince her that that will be the way most of the country views her.

 

I thought the scene with Cersei, Elaria, and whats-her-face was well done, but I just don't care about King's Landing now. Same with Bran and Sansa's reunion, though that could also be because I really thought it was going to be Arya coming in and was bitterly disappointed to be wrong. Even Olenna and Jaime didn't stir the same interest in me that they used to. I think it's partly because of macro vs micro (the ones getting ready for the real battle are the most interesting), but also because the quality of the writing has gone down. These characters aren't as compelling as they used to be and, as an audience, being able to see what's happening on a larger scale just makes that small-scale drama seem insignificant when it's not exceptionally well done.

 

Jon was never someone I loved in earlier seasons (I never disliked him, but he didn't inspire the love that, say, Tyrion did), but he's just about my favorite character now. I'm only really invested in his storyline at the moment. Is anyone else feeling that way? I am glad that Sam saved Jorah, though.

 

EDIT to say I'm fully in agreement with Choc's above theory regarding Varys's loyalties. It's interesting because I believe Dany was naive but had potential when they were in the east, but seeing her in Westeros doesn't feel right. I wonder if her advisors will start to feel the same way.



#49
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Daenerys is insufferable. I can't stand her. She really, really, really grinds my gears. I wish I liked her. I know her story is important because dragons but... she needs to go jump in a lake. 

 

This episode was better than the last IMO, but  as Irish there says... the writing has gone downhill and it is hard to care about the secondary characters that are swiftly being written out of the series. 

 

The only characters Im really interested in now are Jon Snow and the Starks, the Hound, Sam Tarley,  and Tyrian. I still think Melesandre might have a role to play.. not sure if thats just wishful thinking though. I used to love Bron, who we saw a flash of at the end of the episode, so it'd be nice to get some more of him but.. again of what significance will it be really? 



#50
The Choc

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You guys are nuts, the Olenna and Jaime scene was great. Olenna tells Jaime right to his face the truth about Cersei. A truth Jaime knows but has rationalized away. She also confesses to killing Joffrey. Which ofcourse Tyrion was found guilty of, which led to him killing Tywin and the Mountain killing Oberyn. Which ofcourse leads to Ellaria Sand killing Myrcella.

 

Also Dany didn't expect Jon to bend the knee any more than Cersei did when she sent Jon a raven telling him to do so. It's just what Monarchs do. You tell everyone to name you Queen, when they don't you force them to. That's just how it's done. She knows the Lords of Westeros aren't going to just accept her because she is a Targaryan. If she expected that then why even bring an army? She knew she needed allies in Westeros before setting sail and she got them in Dorne and The Reach, they just haven't worked out.

 

I mean I'm pretty sure she even said to Jon when he first shows up something like "You aren't going to do that (bend the knee) are you?".


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