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Game of Thrones, Seasons 7 and 8


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#376
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Aryas gonna kill the queen. Just not the queen she expected.

Spot on!  I was initially a little disappointed with what they were doing with her in that episode after all she had done at Winterfell a couple of weeks back, but turned out to be a nice set up for her in the final episode.  



#377
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Gah... Yeah the Pale Horse was a dead givaway.

This episode as a self contained piece of TV was absolutely amazing. But for it's continuity with the rest of the show sooooo many things piss me off about it. Its like the visual representation of what the writers are doing to what came before.
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#378
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Gah... Yeah the Pale Horse was a dead givaway.

This episode as a self contained piece of TV was absolutely amazing. But for it's continuity with the rest of the show sooooo many things piss me off about it. Its like the visual representation of what the writers are doing to what came before.

Yep. Much like the endings to LOST or HIMYM, the only way to think about these episodes is in a vacuum.


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#379
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This is the episode where they kind of lost me. I've enjoyed the last few seasons and didn't think there had been a drop in quality at all but this one really felt rushed. 

 

I know there has been a lot of foreshadowing throughout the show that Dany would go Mad Queen but I'm honestly really disappointed they went with it. It gave us some great moments but I feel like the last 8 years of following her, just to see her end up as the villain doesn't seem right. 

 

The Cleganebowl thing. . .look it was cool and it's what everyone wanted but I didn't really see the point in it, the motivation for it didn't seem to be there. He just seemed to travel there for no greater purpose than the fact story wise, he is meant to kill him. 

 

Jamie and Cersei. . .I just expected a bit more out of both of them. Just felt really anti climatic. 

 

Vasrys...thought that character deserved more honestly. Like they didn't know what to do with him from here so just tossed it aside. 

 

All that said, loved the way they ended Qyburn. 



#380
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Dany going the way she did was without question the best way to go. I mean she's been threatening to burn cities to the ground since standing outside Qarth in the Garden of Bones. Plus she hasn't gone mad, she didn't go over the edge. What she did was a thoughtout, strategic move. We've seen several times this season her lament how she isn't love in Westeros and come to the conclusion that she has to rule through fear. 

 

So prior to the attack Tyrion tries to convince her and seemingly does convince her to call off the attack if the bells are rung. Then it happens. Dany is sitting on her dragon and she decides "if I have to rule through fear I'm going to do something that will make every Lord, Lady, Knight, Smallfolk, Sellsword etc fear me." Then she does it. It's not madness. She isn't her father. 

 

As for some other stuff

 

Yeah, I don't love how they killed Varys. I mean it works based on the whole premise of him always saying he wants what's best for the realm. It's not like it made no sense or anything. Just woulda liked more. It's just a consequence of them condensing the seasons so much. Personally I would have loved for Varys to really put together a plan for Jon to rule and put it to him. Tell him he had letters from dozens of Lords throughout the Kingdoms who want to support it. Have Jon really turn it down. Not a quick "hey youd be a good King" "Nah".

 

Jaime and Cersei. I guess more from Jaime's side. Most of us, myself included, thought he was on an arc of redemption. That's just not the case though. He is a tragic character. We see throughout the show he isn't a black and white evil type guy (like all but 2 or 3 characters on the show). We see what he could be. He just can't get over his love of his sister. It's his one tragic flaw and it lead to his death. It's a good story. I mean in this story do we really expect to see a "bad guy" learn lessons and throughout the show end up becoming a "good guy". Does that bear any resemblance to anything else we've seen here?

 

I'm not sure if I've ever cared less about anything else on the show than the Cleganes fighting. Also saw zero need for Jaime to fight Euron. Just have Euron die on his ship.


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#381
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I also think we need to consider that there may be no perfect way to close out this story while keeping positive momentum going. That's probably why Martin has written one book in 14 years. 



#382
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I do think she did go Mad Queen and it wasn't a strategic mode. Emila Clarke did a fantastic job of portraying that when she was watching the bells. 

 

You might be right and maybe there was no other way to go with it, but also as you point out the issue with this season it's rushed because it's all condensed. If they had spent another few episodes or even another season building more of this up, even including more of the winter elements you recently mentioned, this would have felt a lot more natural and fitting. I'm not sure why they opted to condense it so much - HBO was willing to go longer and spend more money on it, so its been a deliberate move. 



#383
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To be fair though, I do think Martin's end goal was largely the same as what happened in the show and this is his version of the scourging of the shire. I just think the show runners have rushed to get to that point and largely gone against the character they've built over the course of the show - where in the books it may feel a lot more logical (not that we'll ever know) 


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#384
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I feel like this has been somehting alot of people saw coming for a long time. Like I said she threatens to burn Qarth to the ground in season 2. Her first instinct is often violence and then she is calmed by advisors. The issue is recently her advisors advice has failed her so she is going with her violent instincts. 


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#385
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I think there are things to criticize this and other recent seasons about. Dany's character and her actions aren;t one of them. I mean it's tv, you can only have so many scenes of her slowly teetering. We've seen her burn prisoners alive. FIrst episode of the season kinda reminds us of that. Then we set up her frustration at the North not backing her despite her helping save them. We then set up that she knows she can't be loved in Westeros. Then the next step is knowing she has to rule through fear. 


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#386
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And Im not saying she isn't crazy in a certain way. Obviously what she did isn't the work of a totally sane person. Her thinking is off but there is a logic to it. The Mad King was crazy. He heard voices, he stopped bathing and cutting his hair and nails. He was insane. That is not Dany. 


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#387
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Dany burning to death hundreds of thousands of women and children is not within her character, at least the way the executed it it isn't. Its like someone flipped a switch and she goes "derrrp **** it, I'm going to A-bomb the **** out of everyone".

There are so many things with the last episode that don't make sense...I can't even explain because it requires a load of writing.

But like I said, as a self contained episode this was amazing. The director is amazing, the vfx and art departments are second to none. The acting is amazing. But the writing... Jebus...

Hopefully Jon just says, "**** it, im done" and wanders off north of the wall to hang with Thormand and Ghost.

#388
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I've been enjoying GoT.  Dany has been saying for years that she is unable to have children - so what exactly was the endgame with her in regards to succession in Westeros once she dies?   With only one dragon left, the dragons will go extinct as well.  Just seems to me that she finally realized there was nothing left for her but conquest and revenge on the people of Westeros who destroyed her family.  Therefore, she snapped, proved she was more powerful than Jon (i.e., entitled to the Throne), and "liberated" the continent of the families that destroyed her family and did not love her.



#389
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If we're going to go after battle tactics, I still don't get Dany not flying the dragon around Euron's fleet and burning the ships from behind. I get the shock of seeing Rhaegal being shot out of the air, but then she flies straight towards his fleet before backing down. I doubt those turrets swiveled 360°.

Yep.  Even if they did swivel, they would hit the main sail when firing.  None were mounted on the stern of the ships.



#390
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This woman has shown such a capacity for and predelection towards violence and cruelty throughout the whole series. This is a woman who crucified so many people in Meereen that they lined the road to the city for miles. She left them up on their crosses to say "if you stand against the Mother of Dragons this is what happens to you." She was using fear to advance her ends. She has used violence and cruelty to advance her ends through the whole show. And I get you will say "well they aren't innocent! they were bad people! they were slave owners!". It doesn't matter, cruelty is cruelty and once you are willing to be cruel then you are cruel. The fact is the slave masters stood in Dany's way, thats why they were killed and had their bodies displayed. 

 

She burned prisoners of war alive for not bending the knee to her. This also displays a hypocrisy she has. She wants to free slaves but she wants to be an absolute Monarch. In Westeros everyone is essentially a slave of the Queen. The Tarly's refused her command and she burned them alive for it. How is this different than a slave owner. 

 

You also have to realize that Dany believes her own crap. She believes the Throne is hers. It's her birthright. She believes she HAS to be Queen at any cost that no price is too high because once she is Queen she will be such an amazing Queen it will all be worth it. Once you believe something like this there is nothing you won't do to get your crown. She is like Stannis in this regard.

 

Combine this with her huge capacity for vengeance and violence and what she did this past weekend is 100% in character.

 

Some quotes from Dany:

 

"When my dragons are grown we will lay waste to armies and BURN CITIES TO THE GROUND" --Did you think maybe she was just joking around?

 

"I will take what is mine with Fire and Blood"--maybe she meant she was going to light fires for the smallfolk to cook food and donate blood to blood drives?

 

"You counseled me against rashness in Qarth. I didn't listen. It worked out well"

 

"They can live in their old world or die in my new world"

 

"Will you kill my enemies in their iron suits and tear down their stone houses?"

 

"Enough with the clever plans. I have three large dragons. I'm going to fly them to the Red Keep"

 

"I'm here to save the world from tyrants and I will serve it, no matter the cost"

 

"Perhaps it's good the people see Daenary's Stormborn made every effort to avoid bloodshed. They should known whose fault it is when the sky falls down on them"

 

"Let it be fear"

 

 

These are quotes from her. Starting in season 2 and then throughout the show. In fact the 2 most alarming quotes are both from season 2, the first 2 I posted. She flat out said her dragons would burn cities to the ground. This is who the character is. This wasn't some shock or turn to evil. This is who she is and based on the circumstances that have engulfed her recently is exactly how you'd expect her to act. Throughout the show her first instinct is nearly always violence "Fire and Blood" and she constantly is being talked out of it by advisers. If you didn't think she was capable of something like this, I don't know if you are not paying attention or just ignoring what has been said and done by her throughout the show.


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#391
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This woman has shown such a capacity for and predelection towards violence and cruelty throughout the whole series. This is a woman who crucified so many people in Meereen that they lined the road to the city for miles. She left them up on their crosses to say "if you stand against the Mother of Dragons this is what happens to you." She was using fear to advance her ends. She has used violence and cruelty to advance her ends through the whole show. And I get you will say "well they aren't innocent! they were bad people! they were slave owners!". It doesn't matter, cruelty is cruelty and once you are willing to be cruel then you are cruel. The fact is the slave masters stood in Dany's way, thats why they were killed and had their bodies displayed. 

 

She burned prisoners of war alive for not bending the knee to her. This also displays a hypocrisy she has. She wants to free slaves but she wants to be an absolute Monarch. In Westeros everyone is essentially a slave of the Queen. The Tarly's refused her command and she burned them alive for it. How is this different than a slave owner. 

 

You also have to realize that Dany believes her own crap. She believes the Throne is hers. It's her birthright. She believes she HAS to be Queen at any cost that no price is too high because once she is Queen she will be such an amazing Queen it will all be worth it. Once you believe something like this there is nothing you won't do to get your crown. She is like Stannis in this regard.

 

Combine this with her huge capacity for vengeance and violence and what she did this past weekend is 100% in character.

 

Some quotes from Dany:

 

"When my dragons are grown we will lay waste to armies and BURN CITIES TO THE GROUND" --Did you think maybe she was just joking around?

 

"I will take what is mine with Fire and Blood"--maybe she meant she was going to light fires for the smallfolk to cook food and donate blood to blood drives?

 

"You counseled me against rashness in Qarth. I didn't listen. It worked out well"

 

"They can live in their old world or die in my new world"

 

"Will you kill my enemies in their iron suits and tear down their stone houses?"

 

"Enough with the clever plans. I have three large dragons. I'm going to fly them to the Red Keep"

 

"I'm here to save the world from tyrants and I will serve it, no matter the cost"

 

"Perhaps it's good the people see Daenary's Stormborn made every effort to avoid bloodshed. They should known whose fault it is when the sky falls down on them"

 

"Let it be fear"

 

 

These are quotes from her. Starting in season 2 and then throughout the show. In fact the 2 most alarming quotes are both from season 2, the first 2 I posted. She flat out said her dragons would burn cities to the ground. This is who the character is. This wasn't some shock or turn to evil. This is who she is and based on the circumstances that have engulfed her recently is exactly how you'd expect her to act. Throughout the show her first instinct is nearly always violence "Fire and Blood" and she constantly is being talked out of it by advisers. If you didn't think she was capable of something like this, I don't know if you are not paying attention or just ignoring what has been said and done by her throughout the show.

 

Brilliantly put.  



#392
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 If you didn't think she was capable of something like this, I don't know if you are not paying attention or just ignoring what has been said and done by her throughout the show.

Sorry I just don't really agree with that at all. I don't think there has been anything to demonstrate she would mercilessly burn and murder thousands of innocent people. Know one is arguing that she hasn't been extreme in her proclamations before or the cruelty to those standing in her way but I also think you're ignoring the other progressions in her character, that throughout the series she has strived to become a champion of the people and free the innocent of what she saw as their oppressors. 

 

All the times we've seen her extremism and threats, and using some of your examples above, it's been against those enemies who would stand in her way. If they hold out they burn and die. That we know. But this episode - they weren't standing in her way. They stood down. Suddenly burning everyone and destroying her entire legacy throughout the series does not seem in line with what we've seen the show. 

 

Again I don't doubt this was the end goal the whole time, I just think it could have been better developed, more in these last 2 seasons which emphasises the need for more time. 

 

I'm at work so can't really articulate my points that well but hopefully get the gist. 


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#393
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This season was rushed. Should have been longer than 6 episodes. Personally feel this season should have been split into two separate seasons. But that's just me. And now it is time for Choc to come in and tell me why I'm wrong and he's right...

 

That being said there are only two things that can happen that will cause me to riot...

1. Drogon dies because I love that damn dragon

2. Bran ends up on the Throne. I can't stand that ****er. 


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#394
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No, I don't at all disagree with the assessment that there was no good reason to make the last 2 seasons shortened. If we had 20 episodes rather than 13 it's hard to think the show wouldn't be better. In fact if you ever were bored enough to go back through earlier seasons threads I made several posts pointing out how books 1-3 were adapted in 40 episodes. While books 4-7 are being adapted in 33.

 

So 40 episodes for 3 books and then 33 for 4 books. Obviously going to lose something along the way.

 

If you go back to earlier seasons I was the one complaining that Dany got the Dothraki by basically knocking over some lamps and Jon seemed to come back from dead for no good reason. I don't just like every single thing they do. In general I will lay out what I don;t like and then move on to the things I do. 

 

I just don;t think the particular criticism that what Dany did is out of character is fair. Then again if you did go back to the season 6 thread I at one point said "does anyone else think Dany is beginning to go down a very dark path?" And 2 or 3 people responded they didn't think so. I guess even as watching the show as it aired we interpreted what was going on with her differently. 



#395
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I agree with you that she was going down a dark path - they really emphasised it last season when she burnt Sam's father and brother alive. 

 

The issue I have is going from enemies and people standing in her way to innocents. It was rushed (as we can all agree) 

 

The way I look at it, compare Star Wars to Sopranos. In Star Wars, we knew Anakin's path. We had the foreshadowing in the prequels but when he did kneel and become Darth Vader, we never really got the proper build up to it, it felt like it had to be done for story sake. Sopranos, we always knew Tony was an ass but it wasn't until that last session with Melphi that it hit home how he had been manipulating her for 8 seasons. More of an "oh **** yeah" moment. That's what I wanted out of GoT and Dany's turn, and I don't feel we really got it. 

 

That said I'm going to rewatch all the seasons of GoT after the last episode and will probably end up agreeing with you, so who knows. 



#396
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I agree with you that she was going down a dark path - they really emphasised it last season when she burnt Sam's father and brother alive. 

 

The issue I have is going from enemies and people standing in her way to innocents. It was rushed (as we can all agree) 

 

The way I look at it, compare Star Wars to Sopranos. In Star Wars, we knew Anakin's path. We had the foreshadowing in the prequels but when he did kneel and become Darth Vader, we never really got the proper build up to it, it felt like it had to be done for story sake. Sopranos, we always knew Tony was an ass but it wasn't until that last session with Melphi that it hit home how he had been manipulating her for 8 seasons. More of an "oh **** yeah" moment. That's what I wanted out of GoT and Dany's turn, and I don't feel we really got it. 

 

That said I'm going to rewatch all the seasons of GoT after the last episode and will probably end up agreeing with you, so who knows. 

She sees the people not flocking to her as they have in Essos as an impediment to her. Their lack of love is in her way, so she decides to make them fear her. 


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#397
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That's the part that doesn't jive with me. What.. Because the people don't immediately flock to her with open arms singing her praises when she defeats the Lannister army she immediately a-bombs the civilian population.. Because of what? hurt feelings?? Pfft. I don't buy that at all. Of course people are gonna be scared ****less of a dragon that single handedly wipes out an army and a queen that has had the populace under her thumb for years. Not to mention the propaganda Cersei would have been feeding the public against Dany. Dany and her advisers would be well aware of that.. If she isn't aware then she's a moron. People aren't gonna run kiss you when they see the destruction you have just wrought on the reigning monarch.

But I don't mind the idea of Mad Queen Dany, Queen of the Ashes and all that.. It is probably in fact the best way for the story to go. But how they executed that character shift was so jarring and poorly executed, it feels like a complete character 180 at the flip of a switch. Which is basically the writers taking a dump on everything that came before. But hey, they give us Zombie polar bears and 'xplosions so we should be content right?
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#398
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Dany's first inclination when arriving in Westeros is to attack the city with her dragons. Tyrion talks her out of it. When Tyrion's plan doesn't work out perfectly she gets frustrated and again wants to just to burn the city. This time Jon talks her out of it. You cannot make a case that Dany was not willing to burn the city it needs be. The only argument is that once the city surrendered there was no need, so why would she do it? My answer would be that burning the city and killing tens or hundreds of thousands of people, even if the city didn't surrender, is an act of near pure evil and selfishness. To kill that many people to sit yourself on a Throne that you feel is your birthright because 3 centuries ago some relative burned thousands to death with dragon fire is evil. Plain and simple, that would make her evil. Once she demonstrates a willingness to commit such an atrocity there is nothing that she can do that is beyond her evil. 


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#399
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Yeah totally I agree. I just don't think her flip to pure evil was well executed.

#400
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Yeah totally I agree. I just don't think her flip to pure evil was well executed.

The "flip" then was last season because that is when she wanted to go burn the city and had to be talked out of it twice. This is a person who once crucified 163 men and left them along the road to spread fear. Someone who burned prisoners alive with dragon fire. It's not that far of a leap to go from those things to what she did. 

 

Personally I don't think she "flipped at all". Just that her anger and propensity for violence and cruelty have for the most part been framed at people who are presented to the audience as "bad". 


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