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Wonder Woman!


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#51
Mara Jade Skywalker

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Freaking heroic, adorable Steves.
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#52
Driver

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So that means you can tell people they feelings they have about a movie are wrong?

It means that I don't even believe Mara's stated feelings are genuine.  They're thought out in advance or lifted from others.  It's like trying to find out who won a political debate by asking the surrogates in the spin room.
 

You have to know anyone who soars with you in the Lyceum will read this as having truckloads of irony, right?

#53
El Chalupacabra

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Saw it last night.  Excellent movie!  Still taking it in, but I have to say as far as modern comic movies go, for me, it ranks right up there with Batman Begins, Dark Knight, Iron Man 1, Captain America 1 (that is my favorite Cap movie, actually. The rest I consider more like Avenger movies minus a character or 2), and Logan.  

 

I loved Wonder Woman's optimism.  Refreshing to see a hero actually not be brooding for a change. This movie highlights even more what was wrong with Superman in MOS and BVS...too brooding, and for me those movies were just downers.  Wonder Woman, the character, saves this movie from being a downer (which it could easily been), despite the setting in WW1.

 

Also, Gal Gadot IS Wonder Woman, to me.  Totally owns the role, in the same way Hugh Jackman does with Wolverine, and Christopher Reeve did for so many years with Superman.  I did some reading up on her, and was surprised to see not only was she a model, but is an actual martial artist and veteran of the Israeli military.  Badass.  And I think that helped make her so convincing as Wonder Woman.  

 

I just hope the Justice League movie doesn't undo the awesomeness of Wonder Woman's character that this movie established.

I found it interesting that it parallels Captain America in another way too: a doom plane is hijacked by someone who sacrifices themself to prevent it killing hundreds of thousands, only this time the roles are reversed. It felt like an obvious homage, as well as an acknowledgement of the similarities; embracing them rather than parodying or ignoring them.

I noticed that too, and thought the same thing.  The most obvious change or reversal to me was setting it in WW1, instead of WW2, but we all knew that going in.   I think it would be awesome to see Wonder Woman 2 set in World War 2.  The thing that surprised me was....

Spoiler

 

 

And I would like to see Wonder Woman take on more Greek gods and goddesses in Wonder Woman direct, non Justice League sequels.  I love Greek mythology, and what a great way to set up challenges for Wonder Woman, without dipping into the Justice League rogues gallery.  There are other, lesser known gods and goddesses of war, terror, combat, that could be potential adversaries, out for revenge on Wonder Woman.   For example,  Enyo, goddess of war (companion of Ares), Enyalius God of combat (son of Ares and Enyo), Eris Goddess of strife and discord,  and there are also various spirits of war and battle, to name a few ideas.  And there is always Hera, who has a long history of messing with the offspring of Zeus and his lovers, and  I say Lucy Lawless would make an AWESOME Hera (I remember back in the day, when Xena was on, people saying Lucy Lawless ought to play Wonder Woman...would be a nice tribute).   There's also Kronos, Titan and former ruler of Olympus, who was deposed by his son, Zeus, who may want his throne of the universe back, and Wonder Woman has to stop him.  Athena was also Goddess of Combat (and wisdom) though I hope she remains "good" if she is ever depicted.   Those are just the gods, too.  There are a ton of other Greek mythological figures, many of whom I am sure made appearances in the comics (I'm not all that up on Wonder Woman lore).

 

And there are Wonder Woman's enemies, and Cheetah comes to mind.  Might be interesting to change Cheetah's back story a bit, and make her a demigod like Wonder Woman, so that she is a credible enemy.

 

There's just so much that can be done.


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#54
Justus

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Interesting film.

 

With the exception of Suicide Squad--which was not my  up of tea--I think DC's film universe has strong a foundation and moves forward as fascinating, serious fantasy. Initially, I thought Man of Steel was going too far in the Nolan direction, but the bigger picture of Clark's "humanity" and consequences of power needed to be addressed in a Superman film, and made perfect sense to carry that over in BvS.

 

Unfortunately, a great many Marvel movies are too busy trying play "quip wars" / "bigger means better" and not building interesting characters that appeal to both the comic fans and general audience with no experience with the printed work.

 

Only the Captain America films rise above that level--by far the best of the MCU, and among the greatest superhero films past or present (if I can forget the minor quip wars that found their way into Civil War).

 

Wonder Woman was a study in someone believing in hope, and having that belief chopped down to reality with each day she spent in the war. Steve Trevor pouring cold water on her beliefs with his "both sides have bad guys" speech moves Diana in the serious-minded direction we see not only at the end of this film, but now explains her attitude in BvS. Finally, after 39 years of big budget DC movies, they have a real film universe.


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#55
Poe Dameron

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You have to know anyone who soars with you in the Lyceum will read this as having truckloads of irony, right?

 

You seriously think I follow a pack mentality?

 

Strange.  Ironic even.



#56
Mara Jade Skywalker

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Lol

 

I saw Wonder Woman again yesterday. It was just as good the second time around. Also bought one of the headbands at Target, so my Halloween costume this year is set. 



#57
Poe Dameron

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Now, is anyone here surprised by anything in the last post?

  • Mara using the opportunity to use a mocking laugh or rolling eyes smiley:  Check.
  • Mara going to see a movie on her virtue list a second time and liking it just as much:  Check.
  • Mara announcing that she's going to flaunt her virtue in public:  Check.

Seriously Driver, is that how you see me?  It's rather disheartening to spend as much time as I do trying to be intellectually honest, constantly playing devil's advocate, and not blindly following a team, frankly to the point of causing backlash even with my allies in other venues, and still being lumped that way while you stick up for a person bordering on parody of a blinded, unthinking follower.



#58
Ms. Spam

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Movies much like choices in music are subjective. I think it is great that Mara likes the movie.

#59
Metropolis

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Now, is anyone here surprised by anything in the last post?

  • Mara using the opportunity to use a mocking laugh or rolling eyes smiley:  Check.
  • Mara going to see a movie on her virtue list a second time and liking it just as much:  Check.
  • Mara announcing that she's going to flaunt her virtue in public:  Check.
Seriously Driver, is that how you see me?  It's rather disheartening to spend as much time as I do trying to be intellectually honest, constantly playing devil's advocate, and not blindly following a team, frankly to the point of causing backlash even with my allies in other venues, and still being lumped that way while you stick up for a person bordering on parody of a blinded, unthinking follower.
You don't really see things in real life like this do you? She liked a movie for whatever reason. Why does that bother you?

#60
Kyrian

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Their avatars being the same character just makes this look like Oscar Isaac is arguing with himself, Gollum-style


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#61
Mara Jade Skywalker

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I just want to talk about Wonder Woman!
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#62
Poe Dameron

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You don't really see things in real life like this do you? She liked a movie for whatever reason. Why does that bother you?

 

Oh?  Thought experiment:  What if someone were in here hating on any movie starring a woman, reflexively calling them garbage, and pushing it at every opportunity without a hint of thought and proudly balkanizing multiple movie discussions with their pet ideology?  Would you ask that same question in defense of someone calling that person out on it?

 

As for why it bothers me, I'm tired of hearing a broken record of a person's blind ideology being substituted for thought in movie threads.  And for the same reason the above example would bother anyone else in here.



#63
El Chalupacabra

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This isn't me piling on, Poe, and not everything has to be a debate, argument, or prove someone "wrong."   And, by the way, not every discussion has to involve politics and ideology, either.

 

I get you don't like this movie.   Your reason for not liking it really doesn't matter (in the sense we are all allowed to like or dislike a movie for whatever reason), as you are entitled to that opinion.  But did you consider that most people in this thread who has stated they like the Wonder Woman movie is saying so because they actually LIKE it and think it's good, and aren't just saying so to debate you?  Also, I don't know about you, but I find life pretty depressing at times, and I go to the movies to escape all that.  Not analyze the ideology of it.  I just want 1.5 to 2 hours of time where I can watch a movie, forget the outside, and if I am lucky, feel uplifted for a bit.  

 

To be honest, I find that I reached superhero fatigue like 4 years ago, maybe more.   I find a lot of superhero movies these days boring. I haven't bothered with CW verse, or Agents of Boring, or any of the plethora of Netflix hero shows. They literally are a dime a dozen.  I waited for MOS & BVS, to be on Netflix before I bothered with it.  I won't bother with Justice League in the theater, and there's a good chance I may skip it because I don't want it to ruin my positive opinion of the Wonder Woman movie, and Gal Gadot's rendition of the character.  Hell, I was even apprehensive about going to see WW in the first place, and only did so based on good word of mouth, primarily in this thread ( the trailer looked cool, but I've been duped before!).    So, to get me to want to see anything superhero these days in the theater, really takes some doing.  I found that Wonder Woman, while in some parts was formulaic (let's be real, all hero stories, be them comics, literature, etc are formulaic), but I feel this movie bucked the current trend of negativity and the flawed, pessimistic, reluctant hero.   The DC movies in particular are chock full of despair.  I found Wonder Woman uplifting, and the story was well done, too.  That is why I liked it, and it really IS as simple as that. 



#64
Driver

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Now, is anyone here surprised by anything in the last post?

  • Mara using the opportunity to use a mocking laugh or rolling eyes smiley:  Check.
  • Mara going to see a movie on her virtue list a second time and liking it just as much:  Check.
  • Mara announcing that she's going to flaunt her virtue in public:  Check.
Seriously Driver, is that how you see me?  It's rather disheartening to spend as much time as I do trying to be intellectually honest, constantly playing devil's advocate, and not blindly following a team, frankly to the point of causing backlash even with my allies in other venues, and still being lumped that way while you stick up for a person bordering on parody of a blinded, unthinking follower.

One, I don't think you're a sheep by any means, but I do think you are guilty of drifting away from reason and logic at times to stay on your narrative and/rhetoric.

Two, for both movies with a message, and politics, you stick to this hardline position of all things being equal and that they should be treated as such, and refuse to see any aspect of the issue of representation. Whether we're talking about a superhero movie or a black kid in a hoody being shot, you only want to address the plain facts sans bias-- which sounds great in theory, but we do not live in a vacuum where all things are created equal, and like it or not, the question of representation and power hierarchies deserves to be factored in.

Three, I think you're taking personal shots at Mara for being a fan girl because you think that tarnishes her POV. I think that's uncalled for. I agree with you, and I tease her about that all of the time-- but she's upfront about being a fangirl, and that does not make her opinion invalid. Your reaction to her is disproportionate and straight up insulting when all she did was dismiss your mansplaining.

#65
Good God a Bear

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Am I the only one that sings the 70s theme song in their head every time they see this topic on the front page?


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#66
Poe Dameron

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the question of representation and power hierarchies deserves to be factored in.

 

In whether a summer blockbuster is a good movie or not?

 

I mean, if we want to talk about representation, the various media are awash in positive female role models.  Movies might be a bit behind because of money considerations, but I have no difficulty reading books and finding television shows with plenty of girl leads written by women.  And it seems every time I watch a kids' network with my nephew, there's a new commercial telling girls they can do anything.  To me, all this is old hat.  Xena, Buffy, and Captain Janeway happened 20 years ago now.  Even a show like Game of Thrones which made a name for itself by exploiting its actresses' boobs is pretty much being run by women at last viewing.

 

If anything, the positive female role model stuff is so pervasive that it inhibits characters.  Girl protagonists have to all basically be Belle and want independent adventure, like books, not be beauty or girly obsessed, and all that other stuff.  They're being pigeonholed into being flawless and judged based on a set of criteria of what a positive female role model should be as if every girl must represent all girls instead of that single character.  I suppose in Wonder Woman's case that worked out because people were tired of the character flaws from other comic book characters becoming formula.  But in the long term, it's quite limiting.

 

 

 

but I do think you are guilty of drifting away from reason and logic at times to stay on your narrative and/rhetoric.

 

And:

 

 

 

you only want to address the plain facts sans bias

 

You're contradicting yourself.  You're asking me to abandon reason and logic in order to focus on the narrative.  And this isn't the place for it, but you seriously need to re-read To Kill a Mockingbird if you think it's a good thing to allow bias and, yes, the narrative to overrule logic and reason when dealing with a criminal case.

 

You're absolutely right that I am dead set against going even a step down that path.

 

 

 

Your reaction to her is disproportionate and straight up insulting when all she did was dismiss your mansplaining.

 

Yeah well, it ticked me off having easily the most predictable person here accuse me of being thoughtless.  I've generally just ignored Mara for the last year since she's a broken record with nothing of interest to say.

 

 

 

Also, I don't know about you, but I find life pretty depressing at times, and I go to the movies to escape all that.  Not analyze the ideology of it.

 

Are you aware that you're agreeing with me?

 

 

 

I get you don't like this movie.

 

I said it was okay several times.  It was just disappointing because I had high expectations and it felt average.

 

 

 

But did you consider that most people in this thread who has stated they like the Wonder Woman movie is saying so because they actually LIKE it and think it's good, and aren't just saying so to debate you?

 

I didn't say that anyone had an opinion on the movie just to spite me or debate.  Well, maybe Fozzie came to debate considering he hadn't even seen the movie and started us down the path of special because it's a girl in the first place.



#67
Driver

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I feel like you're saying there's no need to debate civil rights because all our laws now say we are equal, end of story.

But just because the official paradigm says something is so, doesn't mean it happens in practice.

Female representation in entertainment didn't shift the day She-Ra or Xena came out.
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#68
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Wonder Woman doesn't reinvent the wheel, but the film does successfully hit on everything it is doing within the standard heroic journey. In fairness the film is a little long, it could be a bit tighter however that is a quibble. If in some alternate reality this was Wonder Man, the film would still be good. That said, the reality is that Wonder Woman is the first blockbuster action film by a female director, a female star/character and so it does earn and deserve additional praise for that fact. Full stop.

#69
Poe Dameron

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Female representation in entertainment didn't shift the day She-Ra or Xena came out.

 

1.  It didn't?

2.  If the modern vanguard of female heroes of Buffy and Xena didn't shift representation in entertainment, then what in the world is so important about a female character doing well in one more genre?  A character that has been around since before Pearl Harbor and is the 3rd most important D.C. has behind Superman and Batman, often put on equal footing with them as a trinity, so it's not exactly a shock that she did well.

 

I feel like you're saying there's no need to debate civil rights because all our laws now say we are equal, end of story.

 

So not wading into the minefield of modern civil rights on the Wonder Woman thread.



#70
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the question of representation and power hierarchies deserves to be factored in.

 
In whether a summer blockbuster is a good movie or not?
 
I mean, if we want to talk about representation, the various media are awash in positive female role models.  Movies might be a bit behind because of money considerations, but I have no difficulty reading books and finding television shows with plenty of girl leads written by women.  And it seems every time I watch a kids' network with my nephew, there's a new commercial telling girls they can do anything.  To me, all this is old hat.  Xena, Buffy, and Captain Janeway happened 20 years ago now.  Even a show like Game of Thrones which made a name for itself by exploiting its actresses' boobs is pretty much being run by women at last viewing.
 
If anything, the positive female role model stuff is so pervasive that it inhibits characters.  Girl protagonists have to all basically be Belle and want independent adventure, like books, not be beauty or girly obsessed, and all that other stuff.  They're being pigeonholed into being flawless and judged based on a set of criteria of what a positive female role model should be as if every girl must represent all girls instead of that single character.  I suppose in Wonder Woman's case that worked out because people were tired of the character flaws from other comic book characters becoming formula.  But in the long term, it's quite limiting.
 
 
 

but I do think you are guilty of drifting away from reason and logic at times to stay on your narrative and/rhetoric.

 
And:
 
 
 

you only want to address the plain facts sans bias

 
You're contradicting yourself.  You're asking me to abandon reason and logic in order to focus on the narrative.  And this isn't the place for it, but you seriously need to re-read To Kill a Mockingbird if you think it's a good thing to allow bias and, yes, the narrative to overrule logic and reason when dealing with a criminal case.
 
You're absolutely right that I am dead set against going even a step down that path.
 
 
 

Your reaction to her is disproportionate and straight up insulting when all she did was dismiss your mansplaining.

 
Yeah well, it ticked me off having easily the most predictable person here accuse me of being thoughtless.  I've generally just ignored Mara for the last year since she's a broken record with nothing of interest to say.
 
 
 

Also, I don't know about you, but I find life pretty depressing at times, and I go to the movies to escape all that.  Not analyze the ideology of it.

 
Are you aware that you're agreeing with me?
 
 
 

I get you don't like this movie.

 
I said it was okay several times.  It was just disappointing because I had high expectations and it felt average.
 
 
 

But did you consider that most people in this thread who has stated they like the Wonder Woman movie is saying so because they actually LIKE it and think it's good, and aren't just saying so to debate you?

 
I didn't say that anyone had an opinion on the movie just to spite me or debate.  Well, maybe Fozzie came to debate considering he hadn't even seen the movie and started us down the path of special because it's a girl in the first place.

Nope. I really don't give a ****. Just offered a possible reason. Still haven't seen it, likely won't, and I don't really care about debating you at all. Driver gets some kind of sick pleasure from it, probably because he's a sexual deviant, but I would put Nightly debates somewhere above YouTube comments and below swiping through Imgur.

#71
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archive plz

#72
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Good Lord what will the Black Panther thread be like?
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#73
Mara Jade Skywalker

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My head hurts just thinking about it. Although that might be general Marvel fatigue.



Re: Wonder Woman - I really wish the sequel would be set during WWII. I love period superhero movies and there aren't enough of them.
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#74
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The issue DC does now have is where and what has Wonder Woman done for a century? The world reacted to Superman in MoS like no other supers came before him. Batman was a myth and if I recall right he had no idea about Wonder Woman until BvS.

You know how this problem could have been solved? The epilogue narration by Diana that exists in the film. Squeeze in a tiny Highlander aspect and line, "I've held many professions since that time, doing my best to help where needed." And then the narration continues as it does and boom she leaps away in costume because of the events of MoS and BvS making supers public.

Afterthought: Of course we could just assume that, or even in a sequel a single line could drop.

#75
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I guess WW must have operated under the radar for the last 100 years since yeah, it seemed like Superman was the first time someone like him had come along. Maybe she was Paris's best kept secret! She had to have been seeing as how she was jumping into action right away at the end of the movie.





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