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Undercover Kylo Ren


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Kylo is not undercover and Luke is not bad. If anyone thinks either of those things is possible they don't understand Star Wars at all.

Ouch! A little harsh, don't you think?

 

So you and who else understands what's possible in Star Wars? Which Star Wars? The PT proved that Lucas doesn't understand Star Wars. Or does he? Rogue One was decent fan fic, but was it "Star Wars"?

 

I've been trying to get across all along that this is JJ Abrams' Star Wars we're talking about, so one movie in, you're clear on what the rules are?

 

Luke needs to destroy Snoke and sends his most trusted and powerful student, his own nephew, undercover to do so. Luke knows and has foreseen that this will require Ben to do unspeakable thinks like possibly kill his own father Han Solo, and so he goes into exile, both to remove himself from the scene and to seek atonement for orchestrating such sacrifices to achieve a greater good. He also knows he risks losing Ben for good, but it is a risk he feels he has to take.

 

OR

 

JJ wants to follow up on the idea that Luke was flirting with the darkside in RotJ and perhaps...he actually did fall, only nobody realized it. Then he created the Knights of Ren and trained Ben to help him destroy this Snoke guy (a rival to his power). Now it will be up to Rey to try to redeem the Skywalkers...or destroy them.

 

Look, I don't know. I'm not actually trying to push either of these theories, honestly. Any theory a fan comes up with has at least a 99% chance of being wrong, but to say they're not "Star Wars" enough is completely preposterous.

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Kylo Ren DID go undercover:  

There is the whole killing Han thing, and there is also the fact he stood by as the First Order destroyed a number of planets and the Republic with it. If he was undercover, that would be a massive pl

Can I have an advance on my allowance?

Sure-- but there's a few things you're not wanting to accept.

 

First-- JJ Abrams isn't involved as you say he is. He was for TFA. Now he's a background EP, and part of the Lucasfilm brain trust that helps plan out these ideas, but Kennedy and Abrams have both said they want their writer/director teams to do their thing. That's why they were hired. So while Abrams has input to the basic ideas and story of the ST, he's not writing it, nor is he hands on with the production of TLJ or IX. People like to point to Lost as an example of his game-- but he was really only involved in the first season.

 

So to say his mystery box methodology is effecting al things Star Wars just isn't true.

 

Second-- when I saw "don't understand Star Wars" I'm talking about the basic mythic storytelling of the OT.

 

Luke beat the darkside. Plain and simple. These are simple good vs evil tales, and he won. It would literally undo everything his character is about his character if he was actually evil. That's not Luke. Would that make for the ultimate twist? Sure-- but it wouldn't be a satisfying one that anyone would like, and I like to think the powers that be know that.

 

Kylo turning good doesn't work for the reasons I already said. Star Wars is simplistic. It's a fairy tale. The plot twists may come, but not at the expense of utterly destroying the character archetypes.

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I gotta agree with Driver on this. Killing Han was meant to solidify Kylo as The Villain both in and out of universe.

 

I don't want Kylo redeemed for many reasons, the main one being that I think it'd be interesting to go in a different direction. (My preferred ending: Kylo gets stripped of the Force and goes into exile. Yes, this may have been the plot of an old comic. But it's a good idea and it'd be neat to explore a former villain having to redeem themselves while still not being "good".)

 

HOWEVER, just because I don't want Kylo to be redeemed doesn't mean I don't want Luke and Leia to try. They HAVE to try, even after Kylo has killed Han. Luke is the consummate believer in the good in people, and Kylo is Leia's son. Luke grew cynical in the EU and stopped believe people could be redeemed, and it was terrible. I hope the movies don't follow the same path.

Exactly-- they can TRY to redeem Kylo, but it can't happen. Or if it does, it will be in the zero hour, and he won't survive, ala Vader.

 

 

But you just cant speak for everybody like that.

I'm not speaking for everyone, I'm speaking to the basics of storytelling and Campbellian character archetypes and movements, which are the building blocks Star Wars is built on. I'm not claiming to know all, or have some amazing insight. I'm just laying out how these theories are wrong based on storytelling lessons. They could make Luke evil, reveal Kylo to be good, and say he killed Han because han was secretly evil. They can do anything they want-- but none of that would feel right or be satisfying.

 

And you completely derailed from your jab at me for saying Vader is worse for killing kids than Kylo for killing one guy-- you HAVE to take into account a story is being told.

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Maybe I am mistaken, but I thought Abrams was the main guy who sketched out the trilogy story arc. That's all I was referring to. And when I talk about him turning things on their head, I'm referring to his Trek movies more than Lost, which I give most of the credit to Damon Lindelof for.

 

And I get your points, but on the one hand, so fans are pissed off if something like that happens, weren't some fans pissed off by TFA? And on the other hand, what do they do, keep telling basic, straightforward, good vs. evil farmboy stories forever? I'm just saying I won't be shocked if what they end up doing is designed to flip out people who think exactly like you. Isn't that who Abrams is? A dude who thinks he's the smartest guy in Sci-fi today?

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Maybe he is. But he isn't in charge of Star Wars and he did not write TJA or IX, their directors and Lawrence Kasdan did.

 

I'm not denying a plot twist, just the two we're talking about here.

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On one hand, I could get the Kylo being undercover story. I could buy that Han was even in on it. The bit where Kylo thanked him for making it easier on him could give you that impression.

 

On the other, it made no sense that Han was trying to bring him back at the time. Their dialogue couldn't be heard by anyone. So if it was pre-planned and Han knew he was going to die then why waste his breath? It's even feasible that Leia knew nothing about it. But why would Han then at least try to redeem his son?

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... I feel like there has to be something coming beyond what we can easily predict.

 

Why? Twists generally haven't been a feature of Star Wars stories, Abrams involvement notwithstanding. Maybe the twist is that there is no twist. Who would predict that?

Jesus Star Wars has constant plot twists,

 

Padme is Amidala

An old Jedi is behind the attempted assassination of Padme

Sidious is Palpatine

Han unselfishly returns!

Vader is Luke's father

Leia's Luke's sister

Kylo is Han's son!

 

I don't think we're done with the plot twists. At least FJ's taking a stab at it

 

Six out of seven of those aren't plot twists. They are just stuff that happens in movies.

 

Undercover kylo Ren is one of those theories that spawn from the imaginations of fans that are dissatisfied with something, so they try and come up with something-anything really that is different than what they got. Don't like that Rey grew overpowered and Ren grew soft solely for plot convenience? Well maybe that's because he was undercover.

 

Not goona happen.

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On one hand, I could get the Kylo being undercover story. I could buy that Han was even in on it. The bit where Kylo thanked him for making it easier on him could give you that impression.

 

On the other, it made no sense that Han was trying to bring him back at the time. Their dialogue couldn't be heard by anyone. So if it was pre-planned and Han knew he was going to die then why waste his breath? It's even feasible that Leia knew nothing about it. But why would Han then at least try to redeem his son?

Hahaha

...wait, are you being serious?

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Undercover kylo Ren is one of those theories that spawn from the imaginations of fans that are dissatisfied with something, so they try and come up with something-anything really that is different than what they got. Don't like that Rey grew overpowered and Ren grew soft solely for plot convenience? Well maybe that's because he was undercover.

I liked TFA quite a bit actually, but thanks for trying.

 

I think there is a history of trying to surprise the audience with a dramatic twist in modern sci-fi and in Star Wars so I suspect something is not as it seems. If I'm wrong there, fine, but time will tell.

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I think we can all agree that "The Last Jedi" will not just be the movie we expect. Rey and Luke team up to kick ass with the resistance to hand it to the First Order only to suffer a setback at the end. I think we can expect revelations along the way. This part of the trilogy has to have reveals in order to set up Episode 9.

 

I just don't think Kylo Ren being undercover is going to be one of the revelations.

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There is the whole killing Han thing, and there is also the fact he stood by as the First Order destroyed a number of planets and the Republic with it. If he was undercover, that would be a massive plot hole. That'd be the time you'd stop going undercover and do something, before billions of lives were destroyed.

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I think there is a history of trying to surprise the audience with a dramatic twist in modern sci-fi and in Star Wars so I suspect something is not as it seems. If I'm wrong there, fine, but time will tell.

In all eight star wars movies to date, I only consider Vader=Father the only real dramatic twist. That's a .125 batting average. I can't consider that any kind of pattern or history for the franchise. You could almost make a case for Lando=double-crosser and Luke+Leia=twins, but I just don't think they qualify.

 

Star wars is simple and straightforward. Fantasy character archetypes, king Arthurian themes, World War II in space. Good guys vs bad guys in easily-identifiable uniforms for your convenience. Character motivations are predictable and not overly imaginative. All the mystery comes from this thing called the force.

 

I bet the only revelations we get are Rey's lineage explaining her importance and strength, and Snoke's character. Heck, these two things could possibly be intertwined somehow.

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There is the whole killing Han thing, and there is also the fact he stood by as the First Order destroyed a number of planets and the Republic with it. If he was undercover, that would be a massive plot hole. That'd be the time you'd stop going undercover and do something, before billions of lives were destroyed.

Not if the only goal is getting close enough to take out the head honcho.

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In all eight star wars movies to date, I only consider Vader=Father the only real dramatic twist. That's a .125 batting average. I can't consider that any kind of pattern or history for the franchise.

Let's not be too pedantic. I said there is a history in Star Wars and modern sci-fi. If there had never been any big twist in Star Wars, that would be no history. Finding out Vader is Luke's father = a history.

 

But yeah, I would also consider learning Leia is his sister, it wasn't played for big drama, but it's a surprise character twist.

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What are you arguing at this point? That there will be an attempt at a plot twist? I think that's a no brainer since every single movie made employs them.

 

Or is it that Kylo is actually good despite that all logic and reason and evidence says it's unlikely as hell?

 

Or, as I suspect, are you just being contrarian At this point?

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What are you arguing at this point? That there will be an attempt at a plot twist? I think that's a no brainer since every single movie made employs them.

 

Or is it that Kylo is actually good despite that all logic and reason and evidence says it's unlikely as hell?

 

Or, as I suspect, are you just being contrarian At this point?

Yeah maybe the last one.

 

I gave up on this theory early on, I just have to counter flawed arguments.

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Reading some of the discussions here that all you smart Star Wars fans had after TFA came out and rather than reply to threads that are over a year old, I figured I'd just start a new one.

 

So in all the arguments about Rey being a Mary Sue and being too Forcey too soon...how Kylo could get his ass handed to him like that...did anyone ever come up with the theory that Kylo is Luke's Donnie Brasco? Could Luke have sent his most promising student deep undercover to infiltrate the Dark Side?

 

I know it sounds crazy, but it would sort of fit with a lot of his "conflicted" rambling. It fits with him not kicking Rey's ass (thus putting to bed the whole problem some people had with that). It works with him trying to talk to Anakin (his grandfather who went from Light to Dark and back again). It could explain why Luke is in hiding.

 

I just feel like the guy who rebooted Star Trek and then surprised everyone by making it an alternate timeline, has something up his sleeve here too. Kylo isn't just a wannabe Sith who can't quite cut it. There is some other twist coming.

 

It's either that or we'll find out Snoke is Luke.

The hole in your theory (interesting as it is) is that Kylo murdered his father; as in real life gang and larger crime groups, if an undercover agent can kill a close friend or family member to prove his value / trustworthiness, that is the 4th of July of soul corrupting acts. Psychologically, no one would handle that in order to work as the ultimate undercover agent. Would bringing an end to Snoke and Empire 2.0 be worth the inescapable weight of patricide?

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Now I don't personally believe Ren is undercover sent by Luke, but I can totally believe that he is messed up and doesn't know whats right and whats left and could believe in his mind that he is undercover for good, that he is too badass to even be fully bad.

 

As for Luke being bad. I wouldn't use those words, but I can see Luke being a little messed up too and losing the lines between what is fighting for good and what's just fighting for power at this point.

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