Undercover Kylo Ren

[Filthy Jawa]

Reading some of the discussions here that all you smart Star Wars fans had after TFA came out and rather than reply to threads that are over a year old, I figured I'd just start a new one.

 

So in all the arguments about Rey being a Mary Sue and being too Forcey too soon...how Kylo could get his ass handed to him like that...did anyone ever come up with the theory that Kylo is Luke's Donnie Brasco? Could Luke have sent his most promising student deep undercover to infiltrate the Dark Side?

 

I know it sounds crazy, but it would sort of fit with a lot of his "conflicted" rambling. It fits with him not kicking Rey's ass (thus putting to bed the whole problem some people had with that). It works with him trying to talk to Anakin (his grandfather who went from Light to Dark and back again). It could explain why Luke is in hiding.

 

I just feel like the guy who rebooted Star Trek and then surprised everyone by making it an alternate timeline, has something up his sleeve here too. Kylo isn't just a wannabe Sith who can't quite cut it. There is some other twist coming.

 

It's either that or we'll find out Snoke is Luke.

[pavonis]

Has Star Wars ever been so narratively complicated? The biggest twist it had was that Darth Vader was Luke's father. Aside from that major revelation, it has always been straightforward plot-wise. Why the need to complicate what is simple? Characters in Star Wars are exactly what they appear to be. So no, I don't expect anything of the sort.

[captainbleh]

I have wondered about this too, but it's on my urgh list (and not just because Severus Ren wouldn't be very original)

[Mara Jade Skywalker]

Severus Ren

That is brilliant.

 

I could buy this...but there's no reason for Kylo to kill Han. They were basically alone. The only witnesses were Rey, Finn, Chewie, and some expendable stormtroopers. If Kylo was undercover and needed to stay undercover, he could have found some way to let Han go.

 

Now, if Ben Solo started exploring the dark side/going undercover and then it started corrupting him, that's a different story.

[Lucas1138]

Didn't JJ say after the fact that showing him killing Han was their way of making him unequivocally and irredeemably evil?

[RamonAtila]

I believe we are not done discovering Ren's conflicting good side, but I don't believe he will completely redeem himself. Maybe he'll kill Snoke after a lot of negotiating him to turn good from Luke and Rey. But then he'll decide it's too much for him to join the heroes anyway and go down fighting.

[Driver]

Kylo Ren DID go undercover:

 

[Mara Jade Skywalker]

Matt straight up sucks

[Darth Wicket]

Kylo Ren DID go undercover:

 

 

When I read the thread title, I thought that this is what the thread would be about.

[Filthy Jawa]

I could buy this...but there's no reason for Kylo to kill Han. They were basically alone. The only witnesses were Rey, Finn, Chewie, and some expendable stormtroopers. If Kylo was undercover and needed to stay undercover, he could have found some way to let Han go.

 

Now, if Ben Solo started exploring the dark side/going undercover and then it started corrupting him, that's a different story.

Your second paragraph was basically my response to your first. I'm not married to this theory, but I feel like there has to be something coming beyond what we can easily predict.

 

I hadn't thought of the Snape thing. You're right.

[Filthy Jawa]

When I read the thread title, I thought that this is what the thread would be about.

Almost as if it was intended.

[pavonis]

 

... I feel like there has to be something coming beyond what we can easily predict.

 

Why? Twists generally haven't been a feature of Star Wars stories, Abrams involvement notwithstanding. Maybe the twist is that there is no twist. Who would predict that?

[Filthy Jawa]

Except that one where Obi-wan tells Luke his father is dead and...oops.

[pavonis]

That's not the same as a deliberate plot twist, though, is it? That's a retcon.

 

It's fun to speculate, but it's hard to see how so many fans, after watching these films for so many years, can still expect to see things happen in Star Wars that just don't fit the story-telling style we've seen so far. I'll admit that such things as dream sequences and flashbacks weren't part of the style until they were, so strictly speaking anything could happen, including revelations such as Kylo being an undercover good guy and Luke being in league with Snoke, but they're highly unlikely. Besides, any easily predicted twist wouldn't be much of a twist, would it? How about something like Rey is an android, and Snoke is ET all grown up and looking for revenge on poor ol' Elliot, and Poe is actually the worst star pilot in the galaxy, but has the best public relations agent that money can buy.

[Filthy Jawa]

I disagree. It may have been a retcon, but that doesn't mean it's not a plot twist - they're not mutually exclusive - and it is THE single biggest Star Wars moment. People who haven't seen any Star Wars movies know the line. So how can you say a moment where everything the hero thinks they know is suddenly flipped on its head doesn't "fit the storytelling style we've seen so far"? I would say it fits exactly. The wacko type examples you gave don't fit.

 

I'm not defending my theory here, but I disagree with your reasoning.

[pavonis]

Maybe we will get a revelation that turns everything our hero thinks he and she knows on its head. But what do our heroes know that can be twisted so? Kylo definitely killed Han. It's hard to walk that back.

[Driver]

Plain and simple, Kylo killed Han Solo. That's a billion times worse than Anakin killing a bunch of kids offscreen.

 

Han Solo. Film and pop culture legend. Icon to fandom.

 

And Kylo killed him. You can't redeem him. The audience will never buy it no matter what reason or plot contrivances you throw at him.

 

And while Star Wars has one of the biggest plot twists in the history of cinema, it was still very simple. It worked on a simple level and all the damage it did was make Obi-Wan into a liar.

 

When you look at plot twists in modern movies they are needlessly complicated to try and justify their existence.

[Filthy Jawa]

I think we could get a simple plot twist. I'm not suggesting it be convoluted.

I think JJ (F with the audience) Abrams + the aforementioned history of a major plot twist in Star Wars suggest we may likely get a big character twist like that. And reason tells us it can't be our new heroes, they're the ones who have to react to whatever it is, so it's something to do with Kylo, Luke or maybe Snoke.

 

So either Kylo went undercover and Luke went into hiding to sell it (and probably Kylo got in too deep and has now actually flipped to the darkside) or we find out Luke has turned (how's that for the "oh sh*t" moment when Rey realizes Luke is evil and she has to fight Kylo AND Luke?). I don't know what it will be, but I feel like some big character twist is coming.

 

Now I get all the 'Luke turning evil was already the plot of Jonah Summerhill's Plight of the Jedi series"...

[RamonAtila]

 

 

... I feel like there has to be something coming beyond what we can easily predict.

 

Why? Twists generally haven't been a feature of Star Wars stories, Abrams involvement notwithstanding. Maybe the twist is that there is no twist. Who would predict that?

 

 

Jesus Star Wars has constant plot twists,

 

Padme is Amidala

An old Jedi is behind the attempted assassination of Padme

Sidious is Palpatine

Han unselfishly returns!

Vader is Luke's father

Leia's Luke's sister

Kylo is Han's son!

 

I don't think we're done with the plot twists. At least FJ's taking a stab at it

[RamonAtila]

Plain and simple, Kylo killed Han Solo. That's a billion times worse than Anakin killing a bunch of kids offscreen.

 

Han Solo. Film and pop culture legend. Icon to fandom.

 

And Kylo killed him. You can't redeem him. The audience will never buy it no matter what reason or plot contrivances you throw at him.

 

And while Star Wars has one of the biggest plot twists in the history of cinema, it was still very simple. It worked on a simple level and all the damage it did was make Obi-Wan into a liar.

 

When you look at plot twists in modern movies they are needlessly complicated to try and justify their existence.

 

That's cute that you say killing Han is worse than killing a room full of kids. Just cause the big daddy of nightly says it doesn't make it so

[Driver]

 

Seriously? You don't get to talk down to me until you master basic punctuation.

 

If Star Wars were real, killing kids is worse. Obviously. Don't be ridiculous.

 

But a jackass tool character that most people hated killing millions of nameless kids offscreen is utterly meaningless. It's only dramatic because they tell us it is, but we don't feel it. Padme has to cry for us.

 

Han Solo was an icon 35 years and they sold us the new face of villainy by having him off Han.

 

By your logic Tarkin is the worst villain ever cause he killed a planet full of people. Sure, he's a fun villain, but did anyone cry over Alderaan like they did Han?

 

In-universe crimes are meaningless in narrative. They are set dressing to tell a story. The impact on the psyche of the audience is where you find drama. You go for what hurts.

 

That's story-telling. Star Wars isn't real. It's designed to tell us a story, and our perspective is what is being written to.

 

This isn't me talking from on high, this is high school creative writing 101.

 

There may be a twist in TLJ or IX that's OMG WHOA-- but Kylo is not undercover and Luke is not bad. If anyone thinks either of those things is possible they don't understand Star Wars at all.

[RamonAtila]

But you just cant speak for everybody like that. I didnt cry when Han died. The man's a freakin smuggler dealing with pirates, I always suspected his and Leia's kid would be at least kinda messed up. I could tell he was gonna die just because SW kills off an older character in the beginning of every trilogy. Maybe you didn't feel ROTS, but when I watched the scene with Anakin killing the younglings, I buried my face in my hand like Padme just thinking: 'GL, you mother-----. Christ, man, christ.'

 

As for it being impossible (now I don't personally believe it but for the sake of me purely hating you let's say I do believe) that Kylo is undercover and could do atrocious things? It is totally plausible. People in that level of power could get really messed up. People undercover could go beyond what is comfortable. You ever watch Donnie Brasco? I was watching that as a kid thinking how the hell can Johnny Depp, a good guy, have the nerve to just saw up these dead bodies? In movie logic he shoulda quit right there! But you're going with comic book logic that good is good and bad is bad and Batman doesn't kill people.

 

Now I don't personally believe Ren is undercover sent by Luke, but I can totally believe that he is messed up and doesn't know whats right and whats left and could believe in his mind that he is undercover for good, that he is too badass to even be fully bad.

 

As for Luke being bad. I wouldn't use those words, but I can see Luke being a little messed up too and losing the lines between what is fighting for good and what's just fighting for power at this point. He's created from the baby-boomer generation where they just aren't pious Christians like their parents, but they just can't be fully evil. They embrace their dark edges a little bit.

[RUAJedi2]

 

the big daddy of nightly

Can I have an advance on my allowance?

[Mara Jade Skywalker]

I gotta agree with Driver on this. Killing Han was meant to solidify Kylo as The Villain both in and out of universe.

 

I don't want Kylo redeemed for many reasons, the main one being that I think it'd be interesting to go in a different direction. (My preferred ending: Kylo gets stripped of the Force and goes into exile. Yes, this may have been the plot of an old comic. But it's a good idea and it'd be neat to explore a former villain having to redeem themselves while still not being "good".)

 

HOWEVER, just because I don't want Kylo to be redeemed doesn't mean I don't want Luke and Leia to try. They HAVE to try, even after Kylo has killed Han. Luke is the consummate believer in the good in people, and Kylo is Leia's son. Luke grew cynical in the EU and stopped believe people could be redeemed, and it was terrible. I hope the movies don't follow the same path.

[pavonis]

Jesus Star Wars has constant plot twists,

 

Padme is Amidala

An old Jedi is behind the attempted assassination of Padme

Sidious is Palpatine

Han unselfishly returns!

Vader is Luke's father

Leia's Luke's sister

Kylo is Han's son!

 

I don't think we're done with the plot twists. At least FJ's taking a stab at it

You didn't know Padme was Amidala and Palpatine was Sidious? You didn't expect Han to double-back to help at Yavin? Weren't those all heavily telegraphed in the story before they were "revealed"?

 

But, hey, I'm taking a stab at the predicting plot twists here, too, and I've had a bit of success at it before.