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Trump, The Liar


37 replies to this topic

#1
monkeygirl

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I'd like to know how everyone feels about Trump's lies; do you think he believes his own bull****? Do you think he's
capable of speaking freely without lying? Or do you think his gaslighting is a calculated strategy, done on purpose
to distract from news? And if so, is HE the mastermind or is Bannon?

MOST curious to hear from you on this, Carrie, and anyone else serious about politichat.

#2
Zerimar Nyliram

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Oh, I like Trump's lies.

Haha! Seriously, how do you respond to "How do you feel about Trump's lies." Personally, having gone anarchist a few years ago and growing disenfranchised with the two-party system, as well at the system itself, Trump's lies are about the same as Obama's and Bush's. Politicians lie; it is simply their nature. Whether there is a D or an R in front of their name, the result is the same: they lie to you, take your money, and increase the size of government.



#3
Metropolis

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But it's Donald Trump. No one payed attention to any of the other presidents lies. Everyone seems to be hanging on everything the man does, yet still seem to not know the facts. You still canot get someone who believes he's racist to give proof. They just yell at you and call you racist. "How is Trump racist? He lied about the crowd size at the inauguration!!!!"
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#4
monkeygirl

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Oh, I like Trump's lies.

Haha! Seriously, how do you respond to "How do you feel about Trump's lies." Personally, having gone anarchist a few years ago and growing disenfranchised with the two-party system, as well at the system itself, Trump's lies are about the same as Obama's and Bush's. Politicians lie; it is simply their nature. Whether there is a D or an R in front of their name, the result is the same: they lie to you, take your money, and increase the size of government.


Well, you responded just fine! :) This is really the kind of discussion I was looking for. I know all politicians lie. Some are better at it
than others. Trump strikes me as pathological-but I don't know the man so I'm only going on what I see on teevee. I mean, he lied about the weather
on Inauguration Day. He seems to lie about the most random things but they all seem to have one purpose; to make him look special in a good way.

Poloticians genrally seem to lie to keep their jobs and placate their constituents. Some lie purely for personal gain. Trump seem to me to do all that and more
but it all seems to come back to making him look like something really big.

I keep saying SEEM because I want it to be clear I'm not playing armchair psychologist and claiming I KNOW.

#5
monkeygirl

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But it's Donald Trump. No one payed attention to any of the other presidents lies. Everyone seems to be hanging on everything the man does, yet still seem to not know the facts. You still canot get someone who believes he's racist to give proof. They just yell at you and call you racist. "How is Trump racist? He lied about the crowd size at the inauguration!!!!"


I don't know if I'd agree with THAT. We certainly paid attention to Nixon's lies. And both President Bushes'

And how can one give proof that Trump is a racist that hasn't already been said or written? IMHO he is clearly a racist. It was Nixon's WH
that sued Trump and his dad for discrimination in housing in the early 70s. As part of the suit, they sent people in who had excellent credentials
and references and ONLY the blacks were told there were no vacancies. Whites were able to secure a place to rent minutes later. This was tested
numerous times. Then we can take everything he's done and said over the decades from the central park jogger case to the campaign blatherings
about "when Mexico sends its people.." crap. If you're not convinced by this, you wouldn't be convinced by a face to face admission by
Trump himself. So does that MAKE him NOT a racist?

I guess I'm more interested in the TYPE of liar he appears to be rather than his specific lies. I"m interested to know if most of us feel he
believes what he says and if it's a deliberate smoke screen.

#6
Metropolis

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Trump's lies stem from the fact that he is incapable of admitting wrong. There aren't many that can deny that. He has a flair for hyperbole. A lot of it unnecessary.

Does he do it to distract from news? Everything he does now is news. Lines in the sand have been drawn, and parties have dug in. Republicans, Democrats, and the press are not going to budge. There is going to be a lot of in fighting and it is going to be up to us to sift through the crap and figure out what is the truth.

#7
Metropolis

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But it's Donald Trump. No one payed attention to any of the other presidents lies. Everyone seems to be hanging on everything the man does, yet still seem to not know the facts. You still canot get someone who believes he's racist to give proof. They just yell at you and call you racist. "How is Trump racist? He lied about the crowd size at the inauguration!!!!"

I don't know if I'd agree with THAT. We certainly paid attention to Nixon's lies. And both President Bushes'And how can one give proof that Trump is a racist that hasn't already been said or written? IMHO he is clearly a racist. It was Nixon's WHthat sued Trump and his dad for discrimination in housing in the early 70s. As part of the suit, they sent people in who had excellent credentialsand references and ONLY the blacks were told there were no vacancies. Whites were able to secure a place to rent minutes later. This was testednumerous times. Then we can take everything he's done and said over the decades from the central park jogger case to the campaign blatheringsabout "when Mexico sends its people.." crap. If you're not convinced by this, you wouldn't be convinced by a face to face admission byTrump himself. So does that MAKE him NOT a racist?I guess I'm more interested in the TYPE of liar he appears to be rather than his specific lies. I"m interested to know if most of us feel hebelieves what he says and if it's a deliberate smoke screen.
Trump believes what he's saying.

As far as if he's a racist? I'm not saying he's never said or done things that wouldn't throw up a red flag. It would be a cop out to say something along the lines of "We're all a little racist ". Do I think he's racist? I don't think that today he is. I'll go into detail later as to why. I won't leave you hanging.

#8
Carrie Mathison

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But it's Donald Trump. No one payed attention to any of the other presidents lies. Everyone seems to be hanging on everything the man does, yet still seem to not know the facts. You still canot get someone who believes he's racist to give proof. They just yell at you and call you racist. "How is Trump racist? He lied about the crowd size at the inauguration!!!!"

I don't know if I'd agree with THAT. We certainly paid attention to Nixon's lies. And both President Bushes'

 

What did the first Bush lie about? :hmm:

 

Also why the omission of any Democrats?



#9
Carrie Mathison

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I'd like to know how everyone feels about Trump's lies; do you think he believes his own bull****? Do you think he's
capable of speaking freely without lying? Or do you think his gaslighting is a calculated strategy, done on purpose
to distract from news? And if so, is HE the mastermind or is Bannon?

MOST curious to hear from you on this, Carrie, and anyone else serious about politichat.

 
The question isn't precise enough for me to answer.  You'd have to point to a specific example.
 
If you want to know my general opinion about Trump's rhetorical style though, I sorta already discussed that in the other thread with pav:

Well it's a bit of a half-joke, yes. The problem is, you have to stop taking Trump so literally. This is just classic Trump bluster. He comes out and says something quite ridiculous, with a tinge of humor, but that still has a kernel of truth to it. And by doing so, he moves the overton window over to what the ultimate goal actually is. It's just basic negotiating. Your opening bid is never what you'll settle for. Art of the Deal, that's all. The reason it seems so shocking to you is just because we haven't had a legit showman as president in a long time (Clinton had some of the same qualities).

The kernel of truth in this case is that when it comes to greenhouse gas emissions, China is by far the worst offender, and it's not even close, so it begs the question of why we should even bother, since any regulation, no matter how minor, will restrict US industry at least to some degree and China will just keep doing what they're doing, probably while snickering at us behind our back. No, China obviously didn't "create" warming, but any serious discussion about global regulation needs to start with a re-focus on why the f-ck China can just sit there while we have to suffer the haircut. The goal is obviously to reach an eventual compromise, but you sure as sh-t aren't going to get it by being the first one to cave and offer the olive branch from a position of weakness. But yeah, this is just standard Trump. It's sorta like what happened with the Muslim ban. The real goal may have been (and looks like it will be) to just reduce refugees from Syria and a couple other countries, but if you started with that, we all know what the Left would say (racist). If you know that's what the Left will say no matter what you propose, might as well just go all out and then move the overton window closer to your preferred policy.

As to what you should do, I would wait until some actual policy occurs as opposed to just freaking out about Trump's rhetoric. And then when that policy comes out, focus on that issue.

Now, I'm not completely beyond understanding. I get why this bluster is a little jarring. You want a "serious" president, I assume.

Well, the people didn't. After all, serious politicians have had decades to do something about some of the root causes of this angst, such as the fact that wages haven't meaningfully gone up for most Americans in a generation. And instead they wasted their time with a circle-jerk of pet projects, patting themselves on the back, and celebrating popular social causes to culturally signal to other people how in vogue with the times they were. Well, you can only hold off the masses long enough before the pitchforks come out. That we would eventually get a Trump was predictable way back in the early 90s.

So no, I'm not sympathetic about the Left's complete mental breakdown about how un-serious our president is. As the old saying goes, you broke it, you bought it.



#10
Jacen123

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But it's Donald Trump. No one payed attention to any of the other presidents lies. Everyone seems to be hanging on everything the man does, yet still seem to not know the facts. You still canot get someone who believes he's racist to give proof. They just yell at you and call you racist. "How is Trump racist? He lied about the crowd size at the inauguration!!!!"

I don't know if I'd agree with THAT. We certainly paid attention to Nixon's lies. And both President Bushes'

 

What did the first Bush lie about? :hmm:

 

I don't know what she's going for exactly since I was super young during HW's presidency and don't remember things of this sort from that time, but all that immediately jumps to my mind is "No more taxes" :shrug:


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#11
Carrie Mathison

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Perhaps, but that's not a lie, it's a broken promise. And every president has had those.
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#12
Jacen123

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Like I said, that's all that came to mind. :shrug:



#13
The Kurgan

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Oh, Trump tells lies. The best lies. Believe me. Nobody tells lies like Trump. All the time people say "Nobody lies like Trump." With lies like these, Trump is going to win bigly. He is going to win so much he may even get tired of winning. The best lies.
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#14
pavonis

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If he resigns, he can just say he got tired of winning. Convenient.


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#15
Ms. Spam

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Hmmm. I know Obama flip flopped on a bunch of stuff. But really I read somewhere where a professor thinks Trump is mentally ill. 



#16
Driver

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Trump is a puppet who wants to say he's President. Bannon is running the country and is without a doubt racist. THE RACIEST.

Edited by Driver, 30 January 2017 - 10:17 PM.

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#17
The Kurgan

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But it's Donald Trump. No one payed attention to any of the other presidents lies. Everyone seems to be hanging on everything the man does, yet still seem to not know the facts. You still cannot get someone who believes he's racist to give proof. They just yell at you and call you racist. "How is Trump racist? He lied about the crowd size at the inauguration!!!!"


On a somewhat more serious note, I'm actually way, WAY more afraid of Trump's opponents than I am of Trump himself.  He seems preoccupied with grandiosity, and he tapped into a desire for this on part of a large part of the electorate.   Thing is, Trump's an easy target in a lot of ways.  His lies, such as they are, are his own.  

 

Trump's opposition on the other hand, is a lie so vast - how do you unravel it?  Where do you even begin?  It goes way beyond the Clinton Foundation or any of that.  I mean, tens of millions of people were up in arms about the offensive statements of one presidential candidate that his main opponent all but escaped scrutiny, at least from mainstream sources.  How awful it was that Trump's racist statements didn't stop millions from voting for him, completely unasked was how it was that Clinton's hawkish, neo-con voting record and tenure as secretary of state didn't stop millions from voting for her.  In the long run, what has done greater harm: Trump's awful ban on Syrian refugees, or Obama/Clinton era intervention in Syria that contributed to the crisis that made refugees of the population in the first place? 

 

Why is Trump's opposition so bloody preoccupied with identity politics and mawkish sentimentality and almost completely devoid of serious analysis of what are complex and nuanced issues?  It says a great deal, I think, that a Muslim girl wearing a US flag in a Hijab style became an emblem of a massive feminist protest against the supposed misogyny of Trump and his administration.  Because nothing says respect for women's rights like Shari'a law, yes?  It would seem so.   Where is the scrutiny of such issues in mainstream public discourse?  

 

Where is the scrutiny of this ridiculous "Muslim ban" that Trump's allegedly enacted - the one that managed to not apply to the vast majority of the Islamic world (Pakistan and Indonesia get a free pass) and even the most egregious perpetrators of terrorism on US soil (13 of the 16 9/11 hijackers were Saudis, and yet the Saudis get a free pass, as always.  Funny how you never hear about the real reasons - stretching back to the early 1970s - for this.  If the intent here was to keep out Islamic terrorists, the gesture is well short of being a joke worth laughing at, let alone a serious gesture.  But Instead of serious scrutiny and hard questions such as these, it's just foaming at the mouth hysteria from a unified media bloc more interested in whipping loyal reader/viewership into frenzies of terror over the encroaching tyranny of evil Hitler Trump.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not shilling for Trump.  All of our elected leaders should be held to public scrutiny.  I'm no fan of the guy, though he has done some things I agree with, and killing the Trans Pacific Partnership may, by itself, redeem his presidency in the long term, whatever else may happen.  Thing is, I think, is that the greater threats to democracy long-term are the ones you don't see, hear and feel. This scares me a hell of a lot more than Trump ever has or will.  A kind of auto-immune disorder of the body politic wherein the very mechanisms that are meant to safeguard liberty fall to the ills of partisanship.  Ideological entrenchment among the media and academic classes, for example.  Sometimes this comes from the right - the pressure to support regressive policy during the Bush era for fear of being unpatriotic or insufficiently concerned with terrorism, for instance.  Sometimes this comes from the left - the tendency to brush aside legitimate criticism of Obama and the Clinton campaign as racism and misogyny, as examples.  In the early days of Obama's presidency, you had freaking out and "literally Hitler" hyperbole from the Tea Party types, now you're getting it from the Pantsuit Nation crowd.  While the right to protest and disagree with the government in good faith is inalienable, I think citizens of a democratic society have a civic duty to think a little more and react and freak out on cue from media signals - be they from Fox News OR CNN - a little less.


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#18
Metropolis

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 While the right to protest and disagree with the government in good faith is inalienable, I think citizens of a democratic society have a civic duty to think a little more and react and freak out on cue from media signals - be they from Fox News OR CNN - a little less.


Many believe that freaking out is their civic duty.

#19
Driver

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Yeah people do that if they think their constitutional rights are being removed. Rumor mill says there's an executive order on the way that's going to roll back Obama era advancement on equal rights for gays.

Edited by Driver, 30 January 2017 - 11:24 PM.

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#20
Metropolis

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Whose constitutional rights are being removed with this immigration order?
( I realize you're probably referring to the Woman's march)

#21
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I don't really see it as freaking out as people responding. Pretty much it's been nice people with signs and bringing the family pet and kids to these demonstrations. It's hard to compare because Hillary got the popular vote. So you will hear more from them because for the large part they are a big group of people. Part of history and context for the constitution is the press as the fourth estate as a way to get information and voicing our issues by protesting is still legal. The only one who's been hurt would be Richard Spencer who got nose punched a SECOND TIME!



#22
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I suppose the question is if you want to hear people's opinions or do you want them to just agree with you?  Pretty disappointed, but I'll get over it.



#23
Justus

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I'd like to know how everyone feels about Trump's lies; do you think he believes his own bull****? Do you think he's
capable of speaking freely without lying? Or do you think his gaslighting is a calculated strategy, done on purpose
to distract from news? And if so, is HE the mastermind or is Bannon?

MOST curious to hear from you on this, Carrie, and anyone else serious about politichat.

 

 

 

Are you serious? Name one U.S. president (in your lifetime) free of telling outright lies, used verbal slight of hand, or pulled the wool over the population's eyes on more than one occasion.


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#24
The Kurgan

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I don't really see it as freaking out as people responding. Pretty much it's been nice people with signs and bringing the family pet and kids to these demonstrations.

The thing I keep wondering about was whether or not this was true of the Tea Party when the shoe was on the other foot seven years ago. Did maybe the teabaggers - when you sifted the wheat from the chaff of what they had to say - have some legitimate concerns about executive overreach? In retrospect, perhaps they did, but they squandered their legitimacy on grandstanding and being shills. As another example, a genuinely good video has been circulating in alternative political circles of Paul Joseph Watson completely taking apart all the hysteria surrounding Trump's "Muslim ban" - itself a stupid and misleading label for it but that's another matter - and it's genuinely quite a good video. But guess what, PJ? You're an announcer for Info Wars, for God's sake. I don't even remember when it was I just rolled my eyes every time their stuff came up. Somewhere along the line, Obama stopped being evil Hitler. He wasn't coming to take everybody's guns away, he wasn't rounding people up and sticking them in FEMA camps, and he wasn't the antichrist. But he DID do some rather unsavory things, but we stopped listening after a while because the hyperbole just got to be too much. And he got away with murder because of it.

Guess what? It's going to happen again. The HuffPost: "Trump's all white male cabinet legislating women's bodies!" Because they cut funding for international planned parenthood. And now, the IRON HEEL is descending on Muslims! Because he issued a temporary suspension on immigration from a handful of Muslim countries that collectively comprise a bare fraction of the Islamic world until they can get their vetting process in order. Are Trump's supporters exaggerating the danger Syrian refugees pose? Yeah, probably. You vet them properly and you usually don't have a problem. But Trump is hardly evil Hitler for issuing a temporary suspension on immigration from a list of countries that the Obama administration drew up in the first place. Where was the concern for Muslims when his administration was conducting drone strikes in the middle east? Where was the concern for Mexican immigrants when the Obama administration was deporting them in record numbers? It's a good thing Obama was a democrat and was black, or else he'd long since have been evil Hitler to the safety pin crowd too.

The real problem, though, is that for more and more people, the Huffington Post is going to exhaust their credibility too. It's all about the boy who cried wolf. Once it becomes apparent that Trump isn't going to liquidate the minority population, that he isn't going to reduce women to mere handmaids, that he isn't Lord Voldemort, people are going to roll their eyes the way we now roll our eyes when some idiot with a gadsden flag profile pic tries telling us all the same crap about the democrats - when the HuffPo is trying to tell us something we really need to know about abuse of executive power.

And when that day comes, Trump is going to have an even freer hand than Obama or Bush ever did. And God only knows what he'll do with it.

#25
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I actually liked some Tea Party ideas. Everyone can have a good point or reason for being, but once you start framing that notion into action it can get pretty cruddy. I still think Democrats are spineless. A lot of these new to the fold protesters are showing up at local Democrats party headquarters to see what it is all about and walk out of their first meetings with an inkling of why they lost. They are just like the other side with ineptitude, in fighting and general pettiness.
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