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The Trump Administration 2017-


Ms. Spam
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Dude-- there are literally pictures of border agents spraying little kids in the face.

 

Even if the goal was to stop said caravan, we have the resources to have made the encounter non violent. Regardless of the border-immigrants issue, the choice to escalate the confrontation was caulculated. It was not an escalation, it was a political statement.

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'So let me get this straight? The belief is that border agents deliberately and maliciously tear gassed women and lchildren? '

 

YES, but it's not a 'belief', it is the truth.

https://www.businessinsider.com/mom-tear-gas-children-migrants-us-border-2018-11

 

'The point was this was never going to go well. The caravan forced their way into Mexico. That wasn't going to happen here. Trump or no Trump.'

 

The "caravan" has been marching from Honduras to Mexico for ten years now. It happens annually. Funny how Obama and Bush Jr. were able to deal with this without gassing kids. Funny how it all changed when Trump got elected. I WONDER what the difference could be?

 

 

 

'The sheer number of people involved told you the system couldn't handle the numbers.'

 

You really think the USA/Mexico border can't handle 1500 people requesting asylum/entrance? Have you ever spent any time on that border?

 

'Spam, I couldn't disagree with what you just said more. The hyperbolic view of how people view immigration(or most political views these days) is what's wrong. If you're for strong borders it doesn't make you a xenophobe.'

 

Actually, Spam is correct and you just agreed with her. That hyperbolic view, which she detailed for us. The problem with that last statement is how *you* define strong borders. What do you find so weak about our border with Mexico that it needs this kind of attention? (razor wire, increased troops, gassing kids). Strong borders are good. I feel we already have strong borders. For *years* now, more undocumented Mexicans leave the USA than are entering. THIS is a crisis? Just because you don't want kids teargassed doesn't mean you want open borders.

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I didn't define strong borders did I? I believe we have laws on the books that can do the job. The problem is we either don't enforce the laws or we come up with legislation to circumvent the laws.

 

Read what I said including what's in the parenthesis. Everything these days is cranked to 11. If I watched or listened to everything that's out there I would actually believe the world is on fire. How many people in your immediate circle can even tell you about what's going on at the border?

 

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2018/nov/26/obama-administration-used-tear-gas-border-once-mon/

So what changed under Trump? Other than it was Trump?

 

And I'm being sincere when I ask this Spam. How could we have done this better?

- there are quotas when it comes to legal immigration. Was there an expectation that most of these people were going to get through?

 

- should we have made an exception for these groups?

 

- border patrol didn't fire on these people because they were lawfully organizing.

 

That last point is a big one. Everyone is guilty of lumping everyone into the same group by association. All Republicans are this... All Democrats are this... All people from Florida are yada yadas... So yeah not everyone in the caravan are trouble makers. If the people you're traveling with start throwing rocks and bottles at border patrol your unfortunately going to catch the flak.

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I just don't buy what you're saying.

 

As MG said-- this influx existed under Obama and W, neither of them resorted to this.

 

As for how to handle it? Maybe we make one less aircraft carrier and use that money to make border centers where you can be detained in a human way and be processed for immigration Ellis island style.

 

And I'm sorry, but again, there are pics of border patrol agents literally walking up to barefoot kids and spraying them in the face. That is a far cry from being stuck with a group throwing rocks.

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In the list of critical things let's put this in perspective. These are like a few hundred people who are seeking to do something better for themselves. I am sure they are not criminals as much as say a gang member who is the real boogieman. They are just poor dumb people who's only option is to come and yes they maybe pushing it to get in. It's not a security threat to hear them out and either turn them away or grant asylum. Many of these people have relatives that already live here in the states who will give them a start to a job, food and shelter. They just have to get to that family.

 

There are people sleeping on bridges waiting in the Valley here in Texas. People are dying in the heat here in trucks abandoned at Walmart pit stops and ranches.

 

What if, this sounds crazy, we work on a way to process and help these people instead of spending money gassing them in ditches in Tijuana and heightening the hype and anger and feelings?

 

In El Paso kids come across daily and go to schools and workers come across and go back home from work. Things are trucked many times over the border. You have to plan these because it's not an open border and by 8 AM it can take up to two hours to go through a border crossing's version of TSA. If you drive the border you'll see the border patrol dragging tires and looking for tracks and patrolling sometimes even on horseback.

 

There's been a steady decline in illegal crossings since Obama took office and it is such a small percentage of actual illegal immigrants compared to our population here in the US. It's nuts to build a fence and waste money as many areas (I love Big Bend) will be impossible to build a fence and rugged beauty as well as animals will be impacted by this. We have better technology. Why not invest in updated things to monitor the border and work to provide work visas with the possibility of being a permanent resident?

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Look at the exchange again.

 

"I know it's the Washington Post"

 

"I think you mean the Washington Times"

 

"It isn't the Times"

 

You deny a basic and obvious fact, which is why I have come to despise communicating with you. You're impossible, and I really just don't care anymore. You win, I'm done. I can't read. It wasn't the Washington Times. I'm just making stuff up.

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"So what changed under Trump? Other than it was Trump?

And I'm being sincere when I ask this Spam. How could we have done this better?"

 

What changed started in Honduras. Gangs began killing more residents. Corrupt governments in Honduras and Mexico didn't do enough to stop this and the annual marches began. When they began, they started from Honduras and went to central Mexico. Year after year, a few more would try and go farther North. As a result, the requests for asylum at the US/Mexico border surged -mostly in the past few years. After seeing the increase in requests, and being asked to provide more agents to process the people,Trump instead changed the way we process those seeking asylum at the border. We used to allow them in and track them until the paperwork could be done in times of heavy traffic. Trump decided they couldn't allow anyone in until they were fully vetted FIRST. This is when he started 'locking kids in cages'. Sessions was either the instigator or the fall guy-but he went public with this plan by saying the increase was due to people 'trying to game the system' and lying about seeking asylum just to get into the USA. There is absolutely not one tiny shred of evidence to support this claim. There were no more persons than before these marches trying to cross illegally. Seeking asylum is legal. Entering the USA and then asking for asylum when an agent encounters you is legal. Trump didn't like this but wasn't able to just change it so he decided on the 'deadly force' threat instead.

 

How we could have done this better:

 

* Stayed the course and kept things as they were

 

* Sent more processing agents to work at the border so everything could have been done in a timely manner

 

*Sent agents to the border AFTER the marchers reached the USA along with the military and razor wire

 

*Tried to work with the governments of Mexico and Honduras to make their countries more secure and present a united, 3 -country front when dealing with immigration

 

There are flaws with each of these, to be sure, but all of this could have been handled easier, better and cheaper.

 

 

http://time.com/5466781/migrant-caravan-trump-border-crisis/

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Look at the exchange again.

 

"I know it's the Washington Post"

 

"I think you mean the Washington Times"

 

"It isn't the Times"

 

You deny a basic and obvious fact, which is why I have come to despise communicating with you. You're impossible, and I really just don't care anymore. You win, I'm done. I can't read. It wasn't the Washington Times. I'm just making stuff up.

I'm afraid you just had a misunderstanding. When Metropolis said "Not the Washington Times" he was referring to his secondary source with Newsweek not being the Washington Times, not contradicting you by saying the original really was the Washington Post. He basically responded to your dismissal of the Washington Times as a source by providing another that didn't have a conservative slant.

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As for the merits of the discussion itself, last I checked the use of irritants to disperse mobs chucking deadly weapons at law enforcement was an uncontroversial practice even on our own citizens. No child or anyone else suffered any injuries in any reports I could find (other than a lady who managed to accidentally impale herself in a totally separate incident). I looked and didn't see any pictures of children being pepper sprayed directly to the face or any evidence that the border patrol went went rogue and mistreated anyone.

 

There's a lot of emotionalism involved, but this just seems to be low-level crowd control to protect the border control officials from potential injury at the end of the day.

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Every country in the world has laws regarding immigration and those laws should be enforced. If anything is political here it’s the nitpicking of how this whole thing was handled. It’s been widely documented that repelling illegal immigrants happened several times under Obama’s watch. I highly doubt that that we can say with confidence that border patrol didn’t act the same way during his administration. The media simply didn’t care to cover it.

 

And if a couple of kids got hurt in the process, so what? Many migrants use their kids as shields. Some use others kids, whether those kids want to or not. It’s an old tactic that has been used throughout history. The Gauls tried it with Ceasor and those cute little tikes got much more than just pepper spray (which actually does taste good with nachos).

 

I just find it funny that people are so willing to let these people in. I guess they’ve watched too many movies. Everyone is a victim and it’s our job to save them, like they’re all stray cats. Peaches and cream.

 

I hate peaches.

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Every country in the world has laws regarding immigration and those laws should be enforced. If anything is political here it’s the nitpicking of how this whole thing was handled. It’s been widely documented that repelling illegal immigrants happened several times under Obama’s watch. I highly doubt that that we can say with confidence that border patrol didn’t act the same way during his administration. The media simply didn’t care to cover it.

 

And if a couple of kids got hurt in the process, so what? Many migrants use their kids as shields. Some use others kids, whether those kids want to or not. It’s an old tactic that has been used throughout history. The Gauls tried it with Ceasor and those cute little tikes got much more than just pepper spray (which actually does taste good with nachos).

 

I just find it funny that people are so willing to let these people in. I guess they’ve watched too many movies. Everyone is a victim and it’s our job to save them, like they’re all stray cats. Peaches and cream.

 

I hate peaches.

Yes. We, also have immigration laws and they mostly work. We need more workers to process claims faster right now. "Many migrants use their kids as shields." MANY? As in MOST? Your proof of this? Or, give me a number-even if you just guess at it. 'The Gauls tried it with Ceasor" 'I've talked with people who defend Trump who go back to the Civil War to show me how disgusting any given political party is, but this is the first time anyne's taken it back to the Ides of March. "I just find it funny that people are so willing to let these people in." Do you have a clear picture of what it takes to come into this country under political asylum? I think it is *you* who's been watching too many movies.

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