Poe Dameron Posted January 4, 2017 Author Share Posted January 4, 2017 Maul / Qui-Gon on Tattooine - TPM (underrated!) I didn't even bother to include it myself. It was only about 15 seconds of screen time and deliberately didn't show that much even when it was onscreen. It was just a teaser for the finale. That was an issue with RotS. There were just too many lightsaber duels. While a few movies have little teasers (ESB, TPM, TFA), each of them restricted it to one full-blown lightsaber fight, RotS went all out and had three full-scale lightsaber duels and several mini-teasers with droids and such before double feature lightsaber duels for the finale. The Mace/Sidious and Obi-Wan/Grievous duels could have been scrapped. Especially the Grievous one since they rather dropped the ball on the execution and couldn't figure out how to choreograph 4 lightsabers at once. Though Obi-Wan's bare-fisted fight with Grievous was fairly good once they got there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Wader Posted January 4, 2017 Share Posted January 4, 2017 I might be alone in this but another reason the Anakin/Obi Wan duel fell flat for me was splitting the scene between the Yoda/Sidious duel which I thought ended up being the better of the two. Should have just stayed focused on Obi Wan & Anakin (and drop the surfing and high jumps). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poe Dameron Posted January 4, 2017 Author Share Posted January 4, 2017 High jumps? There weren't any other than the very beginning and the very end. Funny, people complain about the twirling, but Anakin vs. Obi-Wan was the most intimately close duel of them all. They spent most of the duel right in each other's face. Anakin clearly holding the edge in aggression and power, pushing Obi-Wan back through most of the fight, but not overwhelmingly. I thought it succeeded, at least in the first 2/3 of conveying the intensity and emotion of the fight. The bit where they're fighting on the melting platform while climbing slowed things down a bit. Though, I rather like the scenes on the lava as it was some of better shots of Anakin just looking evil. And, dammit, Christensen was GOOD in the scenes where he's Vader. He does a wonderful job of being both intimidating and lost in the monster he's become. You actually can see where the rage will boil away some day and leave only regret and no choice but to continue down the path he's taken ("It is too late for me, son."). He doesn't get nearly enough credit for his work here with all the reflexive Prequel and Hayden judging. Anyway, you'll notice I didn't separate the two fights because they were interspliced together. They weren't meant to be judged separately, they were designed to work off of each other. Anakin and Obi-Wan were very personalized, again demonstrated by just how closely the two fought, while Yoda and Palpatine were squaring off for the fate of the galaxy itself, Palpatine quite literally tearing apart the symbols of democracy and throwing them at Yoda. Both were "main events" in their own way. If you liked one better than the other, that's fine, though I thought Anakin vs. Obi-Wan had a fairly significant edge, but I don't consider it a flaw if you preferred Yoda vs. Palpatine. As I said, the Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan vs. Maul scene was superior. It's the highwater mark in telling a story through the lightsaber fight itself in the francise so far. Comparatively, this one does just kind of just keeps going from section to section until Obi-Wan declares victory via high ground. It's more the two just letting their feelings out than anything else, which, itself has its merit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 4, 2017 Share Posted January 4, 2017 Constant twirling and leaving your body unprotected just doesn't do it for me. I can understand why people like it, but I'll take the quiet moment of two masters feeling each other out in ANH over any moment in the PT. It was there in the Original Trilogy as well. Alec Guiness even did a super-slow spin move for no reason five seconds into that brief A New Hope duel that you're praising for not having it. Going off on a bit of a tangent, so this isn't directed at a particular person. It's pretty disappointing to see so many responses just be a new excuse for people to hate on the Prequels and not actually taking the scenes for what they are. Especially if you're going to give applause to the lousy and uninspired The Force Awakens duel. It's one of those cases where I just KNOW that if you cut and pasted it into The Prequels, it'd be subject to abuse itself, except it would be justified. It feels as though arms are crossed and it's just been decided that anything Prequels is wrong and it's wrong even to put it within a set of rankings and instead taking an opportunity to announce how terrible it all is. It's been like over 30 years since I read the novelization of ROTJ so I may not be remembering it right, but I seem to remember Obi Wan mentioning to Luke that he dueled Vader at the top of a volcano, defeated Vader, and left him near a lava flow, certain he perished. I think it actually comes from Vader's memory just before he dies. He recalls molten lava crawling up his back. Of course in the Return of the Jedi novelization, Owen Lars was Obi-Wan's brother. It's one of those things that we "knew" about the Prequels, but Lucas could well have wadded it up and tossed it aside if he wanted. But it was something that had taken more a hold of the fan base.The difference between one stupid move and almost unending stupid moves, especially when you bring up the one I rated worst. Luke also made some fairly stupid moves, but he's supposed to be a little stupid and untrained. I don't like the style. Period. Really, my opinion has little to do with anything else, although having forged a better connection with the characters may have helped. I hate the style in Eastern movies, I hate it in Star Wars, I hate it whenever it shows up. A lot of people like it, but I can honestly say that the prequels are the only movies I've watched all the way through that share that style of fighting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Wader Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 Anyway, you'll notice I didn't separate the two fights because they were interspliced together. They weren't meant to be judged separately, they were designed to work off of each other. Anakin and Obi-Wan were very personalized, again demonstrated by just how closely the two fought, while Yoda and Palpatine were squaring off for the fate of the galaxy itself, Palpatine quite literally tearing apart the symbols of democracy and throwing them at Yoda. Both were "main events" in their own way. If you liked one better than the other, that's fine, though I thought Anakin vs. Obi-Wan had a fairly significant edge, but I don't consider it a flaw if you preferred Yoda vs. Palpatine.I should have articulated better - the reason the Obi Wan/Anakin duel falls flat for me is because it's interspliced with the Yoda/Palpatine fight. I get why it's designed the way it is and how they're meant to play off each other but I personally always felt the duel where Anakin loses to Obi Wan should be the definitive scene of the prequels and one of the rare times a Star Wars finale wasn't intercut with another scene. So a lot of that is due to my own expectation, which I recognise. But then I don't think the whole scene works as well because it's unbalanced. Again this is just my own personal feeling, but the Yoda/Palaptine fight just feels more developed - visually and symbolically and just generally more interesting. Where as the other feels like it could have spent some more time being developed. I agree with you that the first 2/3 works well but the last third really weighed it down for me. Otherwise I feel pretty much the same as you - my ranking for the duels would be pretty much identical to yours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucas1138 Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 Maul / Qui-Gon on Tattooine - TPM (underrated!) I didn't even bother to include it myself. It was only about 15 seconds of screen time and deliberately didn't show that much even when it was onscreen. It was just a teaser for the finale. It was (marginally) longer than 15 seconds, long enough it's worthy of consideration imo (I watched it before I posted because I couldn't remember if it was "worth it"). But it actually resembled a "real" fight. Wasn't overly choreographed, didn't go on forever, had some dramatic stakes. It was solid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poe Dameron Posted January 5, 2017 Author Share Posted January 5, 2017 It was (marginally) longer than 15 seconds, long enough it's worthy of consideration imo (I watched it before I posted because I couldn't remember if it was "worth it"). Did a quick time check of a Youtube video and actual lightsaber play comes out to be about 19 seconds. If you want to include Anakin running into the ship and Obi-Wan ordering Ric Olie to take off, it comes out to be 36 seconds. You can add it if you want, I'm not even really arguing, but, like I said, even in those 19 seconds about half of the shots don't really show anything. Just Maul's lightsaber swinging in a few of them, close-ups of the two combatants, and a few seconds where you can see them fighting in the far distance from inside the Queen's ship. Whether it was meant to originally be or not (there was supposedly a slightly longer fight within the ship itself), it was all just a teaser to keep interest up while waiting for the big duel at the end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Driver Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 All I know is that the Vanity Fair photo spread for TPM showed Obi-Wan and Maul fighting on Tattooine and I was forever miffed that it wasn't real. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poe Dameron Posted January 5, 2017 Author Share Posted January 5, 2017 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucas1138 Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 I'm not even really arguing Well that's a first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poe Dameron Posted January 5, 2017 Author Share Posted January 5, 2017 It's called a message board. The purpose is to write down your thoughts. Not every disagreement is an argument. A lot of people around here need to learn that lesson. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Driver Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 heart breaker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mara Jade Skywalker Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 All I know is that the Vanity Fair photo spread for TPM showed Obi-Wan and Maul fighting on Tattooine and I was forever miffed that it wasn't real.It will be soon.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Choc Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 It was (marginally) longer than 15 seconds, long enough it's worthy of consideration imo (I watched it before I posted because I couldn't remember if it was "worth it"). Did a quick time check of a Youtube video and actual lightsaber play comes out to be about 19 seconds. If you want to include Anakin running into the ship and Obi-Wan ordering Ric Olie to take off, it comes out to be 36 seconds. You can add it if you want, I'm not even really arguing, but, like I said, even in those 19 seconds about half of the shots don't really show anything. Just Maul's lightsaber swinging in a few of them, close-ups of the two combatants, and a few seconds where you can see them fighting in the far distance from inside the Queen's ship. Whether it was meant to originally be or not (there was supposedly a slightly longer fight within the ship itself), it was all just a teaser to keep interest up while waiting for the big duel at the end. And this to me is the biggest problem with TPM. Far larger than Jar Jar or dialogue or Jake Lloyd's acting. There is probably an hour in a Star Wars movie, maybe more, where the only fighting that takes place is a 19 second dual between Qui Gon and Maul that is barely really shown anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poe Dameron Posted January 5, 2017 Author Share Posted January 5, 2017 There is probably an hour in a Star Wars movie, maybe more, where the only fighting that takes place is a 19 second dual between Qui Gon and Maul that is barely really shown anyway. And around the corner will be someone complaining about how the biggest problem of the Prequels is that there's too much fighting and swinging lightsabers around. It's one of those can't win things. Of course there was a big centerpiece race that filled up a good chunk of that hour. I'm wondering what your opinion of A New Hope would be? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Choc Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 ANH is great, I don't think it ever goes that long without action. Well, it's not even action. Its the possibility of action. In TPM on Tatooine or Coruscant the characters feel completely safe. There may not be any huge action in ANH between the opening and the escape from Mos Eisley, but on Mos Eisley there are troopers everywhere. You get the sense that Luke and company are in danger. In TPM they just aren't. I know Maul is "on their trail" but he is alone and has done nothing up to this point in the movie to make you think he can take out 2 Jedi and all the queens pilots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Driver Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 As much as I hate the PT, I actually think highly of the TPM duel. It was a little twirly, but no where near as bad as AOTC or ROTS, and while it may not have been a personal story between the combatants, it GOT personal at the end. Plus, considering that the Sith had been extinct for so long, this was one of the first lightsaber duels Jedi found themselves in. Think about that. Qui-Gon could have all the experience in the world, but never having dueled somebody outside of Jedi sparring? Crazy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 It's called a message board. The purpose is to write down your thoughts. Not every disagreement is an argument. A lot of people around here need to learn that lesson.I think that it would be more precise to say that not every argumsent is a quarrel. (Yes, I am making light of the topic and not seriously making a point) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 As much as I hate the PT, I actually think highly of the TPM duel. It was a little twirly, but no where near as bad as AOTC or ROTS, and while it may not have been a personal story between the combatants, it GOT personal at the end. Plus, considering that the Sith had been extinct for so long, this was one of the first lightsaber duels Jedi found themselves in. Think about that. Qui-Gon could have all the experience in the world, but never having dueled somebody outside of Jedi sparring? Crazy!My hatred of Maul blinds me. I think that he's the only part of TPM that I truly hate. He just always came across as someone designed to look "badass" and it never really connected with me. But all of that was more due to pre-release marketing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Driver Posted January 6, 2017 Share Posted January 6, 2017 I honestly go back and forth. I 100% agree with you one minute, then the next I wish he'd stayed around longer... also jerk your PMs jerkface! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Choc Posted January 6, 2017 Share Posted January 6, 2017 Maul should have been present throughout the movie. There really is no need to even show Sidious in the movie. It should be like how the Emperor is in ANH. Maul mentions some master who is even worse than him but remains off screen. This allows Maul to play the big bad and also keeps his master as a mystery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mara Jade Skywalker Posted January 6, 2017 Share Posted January 6, 2017 I really like what they've done with him in Clone Wars and Rebels, but the whole NOT DYING AFTER BEING BISECTED requires more disbelief than I'm capable of sometimes. Mostly it just makes me laugh because Lucas cut him in half specifically so people would know he was dead. Then, ten years later, he's like, "bring him back. Figure it out." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucas1138 Posted January 6, 2017 Share Posted January 6, 2017 I think the TPM duel holds up really well (maybe just comparatively, but all the same). That pod race sequence is interminable and somehow gets longer with every viewing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest El Chalupacabra Posted January 6, 2017 Share Posted January 6, 2017 I rather like the scenes on the lava as it was some of better shots of Anakin just looking evil. And, dammit, Christensen was GOOD in the scenes where he's Vader. He does a wonderful job of being both intimidating and lost in the monster he's become. You actually can see where the rage will boil away some day and leave only regret and no choice but to continue down the path he's taken ("It is too late for me, son."). He doesn't get nearly enough credit for his work here with all the reflexive Prequel and Hayden judging.t.Totally agree. I did NOT like HC in AOTC. Most of the (reasonable & non-rabid PT hater) criticisms I have heard are valid in varying degrees. However, I think he did do a pretty good job in ROTS, especially from the Mace VS Sidious duel on. The guy would never be accused of being the best actor in the world, but I thought for the purposes of that film, he did just fine. I think he did capture the sense of being conflicted and later evil well, and he did really capture how an early-20 something person would usually react. I remember the angst or whatever I would feel when I was around 20-23, so he wasn't off the mark there. Any issues really have more to do with how Anakin was written (IE not really well-established Anakin was being tutored by Palpatine, his abrupt and complete 180 of going from full on good to full on evil), not how HC portrayed him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 6, 2017 Share Posted January 6, 2017 I honestly go back and forth. I 100% agree with you one minute, then the next I wish he'd stayed around longer... also jerk your PMs jerkface!If he had stayed around longer, I think that would have helped. And I don't have any PMs! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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