Ranking the Lightsaber Duels

[Driver]

 

I honestly go back and forth. I 100% agree with you one minute, then the next I wish he'd stayed around longer... also jerk your PMs jerkface!

If he had stayed around longer, I think that would have helped. And I don't have any PMs!

 

I've been sending them... I just tried sending a fresh one and it said that you specifically were not on the messenger system.

[Guest]

Weird. I'll look into it later when I have access to my laptop.

[Poe Dameron]

My hatred of Maul blinds me. I think that he's the only part of TPM that I truly hate. He just always came across as someone designed to look "badass" and it never really connected with me. But all of that was more due to pre-release marketing

 

I think where I depart from most people on The Phantom Menace is that I liked its lighter nature than the rest of the series. It feels like a relic of simpler days, even the time spent on Mos Espa. Where you can have classic fairy tail moments like the child winning his freedom from slavery, royalty in disguise, a side-kick designed for childish comedy relief, and a villain that is scary and little else with another villain standing there in plain sight winning the day even as the heroes have their parade. To my Disney-loving, YA novel reading tastes, that all works for me.

 

Maul being merely a scary guy who stands before our heroes is not a flaw in my eyes. It would only be a flaw if he failed to convey the lethality he was meant to represent. And in that, I believe they firmly stuck the landing. Maul's makeup design is pitch-perfect for a demonic Sith and Ray Park is clearly a talented stuntman able to sell the fight better than any mere actor. There is a deadliness in his fighting style that no one else in the saga can match. Yes, he has the acrobatics, but between that there can be seen some rather beautiful economy of movement, especially in the scenes where he's fighting Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan at the same time. For example that kick he hits Obi-Wan with, knocking him off the platform is really something.

 

I don't know, as I've grown older I've actually come to appreciate simplicity in story more and more. I was watching Babe not too long ago and I had as good a time as I'd had watching a movie in quite a while. At first I found it funny that George Miller could write Babe and then turn around and direct Mad Max: Fury Road. But then I started thinking about it, and I realized that he took the expected stripped-down narrative and simplistic emotional feeling that we expect from a children's movie and put it into a dystopian sci-fi chase film. Yeah, I'm saying that Fury Road couldn't have happened without Miller taking a couple decades off to learn the art of children's movies.

 

It's part of the reason that A New Hope is quickly becoming my favorite of the movies and The Phantom Menace is tonally the closest Star Wars has come to that film (yes, closer than The Force Awakens).

 

 

 

That pod race sequence is interminable and somehow gets longer with every viewing.

 

That's because it is longer. The original cut might have been a bit long, but it didn't drag. But that DVD version that's out now has an interminable introduction sequence of a bunch of drivers that no one cares about and a lot more footage of the second lap.

 

Believe it or not, this is easily my most hated example of Lucas meddling with his movies. He really did ruin what was the biggest action sequence of the whole middle of the movie and a unique one within Star Wars at that. All the other changes didn't much rise beyond the point of annoying.

 

 

 

ANH is great, I don't think it ever goes that long without action. Well, it's not even action. Its the possibility of action. In TPM on Tatooine or Coruscant the characters feel completely safe. There may not be any huge action in ANH between the opening and the escape from Mos Eisley, but on Mos Eisley there are troopers everywhere. You get the sense that Luke and company are in danger. In TPM they just aren't. I know Maul is "on their trail" but he is alone and has done nothing up to this point in the movie to make you think he can take out 2 Jedi and all the queens pilots.

 

It's a solid 40 minutes between C-3PO and R2-D2 escaping the Tantive IV and when Ben and Luke even arrive in Mos Eisley for that sense of danger to even begin.

 

You mentioned Maul tailing them, and there was the pod race where pods were exploding all over the place and Anakin's life was very much in jeopardy (in theory). So I really don't see how it was any less than A New Hope where Luke was drinking blue milk with his aunt and uncle and then going out to get R2-D2 the next morning.

[The Choc]

Difference also is in ANH, one of the main characters is being held prisoner by the Empire, rather than some update about "people dying" where they are just nameless people. ANH just does a far better job of making the characters feel in jeopardy. In ANH we see Owen and Beru burned. There is just more urgency to it. TPM just has no urgency too it. The pod race is not a good substitute for actual conflict IMO.

 

And I'm not a prequel hater by any stretch. I'm a prequel fan, although TPM is my least favorite of any of the 8 movies by a decent margin.

[DANA-kin Skywalker]

Maul being merely a scary guy who stands before our heroes is not a flaw in my eyes.

This is where you and I fundamentally disagree. This is also why we couldn't be further apart on TPM vs ROTJ duels. In star wars, the characterization is it's biggest strength, and the most important thing IMO. As good as Ray Park is (and he was amazing) and as good as the costume design is...Maul's a blank slate. So much effort went into his fight, his costume design...A+. He's nothing more than an action figure and a huge disappointment. This is the reason they brought him back in clone wars; to show what COULD have been done with such awesome potential.

 

there can be seen some rather beautiful economy of movement, especially in the scenes where he's fighting Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan at the same time. For example that kick he hits Obi-Wan with, knocking him off the platform is really something.

Beautiful...like figure skating, but not really trying to kill each other. That's what it looks like they are doing, because that's exactly what they ARE doing. So...nailed it, I guess. Congratulations, A+ but it doesn't work for me.

 

Oh and that kick...gosh how embarrassing. The editing helped ALOT there. I was kinda agreeing with you about the talent of the choreography until that part. That kick was the most awkward and strangest kick in the history of kicks that are supposed to knock people over. Once upon a time, I was a blackbelt in karate, and yes, learned a bit of fighting with a staff. So maybe I see things like this differently than most people but that kick was strange as hell. It's called a jumping back kick. It's a close-range kick and it's designed to basically break bones. You want to kick the torso. He decided to kick him in the face instead though, and because Ray Park didn't want to actually murder Ewan's face off, he didn't do anything even close to full extension...and it shows. So, there's no way that kick would have launched Obiwan because he didn't extend. Even if he did, since he was aiming for his face (which is up) instead of his body (out) it probably wouldn't launch him anyways. Concuss him yes, send him flying though? No. Thank you editing. This whole long assessment (to me) is second nature, I was a blackbelt after all, so I'm probably in a much better position to be critical. Your mileage may vary.

 

That kick was not even the part I like least about that section of the duel. It's the fact he kicked Obiwan, and QuiGon basically said "Hey, I can hit people too!" and hits him off the platform. Then Maul says "Ow! Hey! I hit you too now!" and kicks him instead of literally doing ANYTHING with his lightsaber that would have sliced QuiGon in half. Not that QuiGon had any interest in stabbing downward onto maul anyways. I guess he didn't learn Downthrust from the guy in Mido Town. Well, nobody did anything like that...because this is the part where everybody kicks and punches each other. Because we aren't trying to actually kill each other. It's all about beautiful economy of movement and figure-skating.

[The Choc]

I'm not saying this as any kind of slight or whatever but it just amazes me that people who hate the movie can remember it in that detail. I like TPM and I watched that fight recently when it aired on TBS and I couldn't break the fight down in anywhere near that kind of detail. It's not a knock, just amazes me that you either 1-watch a movie you dislike enough to know it so well or 2-haven't watched it alot but can somehow still remember it that well.

[DANA-kin Skywalker]

Since he went through the trouble of posting the link of the fight, the least I could do is watch it and try to see his point of view. I paused and replayed that kick that he praised and I found really weird. I posted my thoughts immediately after. It was fresh in my mind. No photographic memory required. Everything I mentioned happened in the first minute and a half.

 

Hate is a strong word Choc...I don't hate TPM. I do find it boring. The duel is the best part, but to me it's in a so-what kind-of way, and doesn't justify the rest of it.

 

AOTC however...that one I do hate.

[Lord Darth Hunter]

Ever notice that the duels show you who is more powerful at the moment and going to win by their ability to push their opponent back, either physically or by using the Force? In TPM, Maul Force pushed Obi Wan into the chasm and would've won had he just gone for the kill rather than toy with him. AOTC no one really pushed anyone away during the duels. ROTS Anakin pushed Dooku away when their lightsabers are locked, making Dooku stumble back. Obi Wan Force pushes Grevious, causing him to run away. Then in the final duels, Anakin and Obi Wan attempt to Force push each other and end up sending each other flying apart, as well as when Yoda and Sidious are caught up with Sidious using the lightning as Yoda blocks it, they both fall back simultaneously. This showed all 4 combatants were evenly matched (the only time in all the saga this happens). In ANH Vader forces Obi Wan back when they lock sabers but only briefly, showing that even though Kenobi is old he's going to be a tough out. ESB Vader pushed Luke to the floor easily at the start of their duel and again when they're on the bridge. By ROTJ Luke was now the stronger of the two so when Vader tries to muscle him again Luke outmaneuvers him with a quick lightsaber twirl before jumping up the bridge.

[DANA-kin Skywalker]

Except for force awakens

 

Kylo ragdolls Rey into a tree, and chases her for most of the fight. Then she pushes back. Fortunately for Kylo her saber wasn't turned up all the way because he only got a few scratches. Either that or she's secretly a drunken master at only hitting him with the very tip every single time.

[Lord Darth Hunter]

In TFA doesn't Rey push Ren back when they're sabers are locked and he tells her she needs a teacher? It's at this point she closes her eyes and focuses, thereby turning up her Force power, pushing him away and then toying with him as she cuts him up and scratches his face off before an earthquake saves him.

[Poe Dameron]

This is where you and I fundamentally disagree. This is also why we couldn't be further apart on TPM vs ROTJ duels.

 

I've got RotJ above TPM, so what's the problem?

 

 

 

In star wars, the characterization is it's biggest strength, and the most important thing IMO.

 

Is it really? Was Vader an effective villain in A New Hope? Yep, he was legendary. Was he well-characterized? Not really. He was Ben's old student and he was really, really evil. That was pretty much it. Oh, and he had a backstory where he murdered Luke's dad.

 

Vader as a fully developed character didn't happen until the sequels. It didn't hurt A New Hope at all to have its main villain just be a really evil guy doing evil things in a well-designed costume.

 

Once again, simplicity is not always a bad thing.

 

 

 

This is the reason they brought him back in clone wars; to show what COULD have been done with such awesome potential.

 

They brought him back because people wanted to see more from him and it would increase ratings. Not because they were disappointed.

 

 

 

Beautiful...like figure skating, but not really trying to kill each other. That's what it looks like they are doing, because that's exactly what they ARE doing.

 

Let's be honest here. Would any sword fighting that's aggressive to the point of swords constantly clashing last all that long? Especially with a weapon like a lightsaber. Considering that it has a blade with zero mass (though they act like it's heavy for some reason), requires almost no power to cut flesh, and any surface of the blade is equally deadly, none of the fighting styles particularly makes sense. Not even the defensive Obi-Wan vs. Vader fight.

 

Anytime someone raises their arm even slightly to swing the lightsaber like we see them doing, the opponent should instantly win with a quick step forward and a flick of the wrist. But that ain't interesting to film.

 

So we need to toss realism out the window.

 

 

 

This whole long assessment (to me) is second nature, I was a blackbelt after all, so I'm probably in a much better position to be critical.

 

No, that just makes us equals. I'll do you the courtesy of assuming that your assessment that it was the most awkward and strangest kick ever is hyperbole.

 

Aesthetically the set-up and surprise of how the kick was delivered were top-notch. The physics of whether Obi-Wan should have been knocked backwards or Park not extending his foot through Ewan McGreggor's skull were not what I was talking about.

[DANA-kin Skywalker]

The set-up huh. I grow bored with micro arguing fractions of seconds of the fight. My main point is the kicking and punching in a sword fight is a silly idea and to me looks dumb. If you have an opening use your damn sword...unless the purpose is to NOT kill your target and fight all day long. At that point it's a well choreographed dance.

 

Since you've been a good sport Poe I'll throw you a bone here. A friend showed me this once. It's not less fake-looking but you'll like this better than TPM. The sound, visuals, and choreography are way better.

 

[Poe Dameron]

Link just goes to Youtube's front page.

 

 

 

My main point is the kicking and punching in a sword fight is a silly idea and to me looks dumb.

 

Huh? First, Luke kicks Vader in RotJ. Second, that's taking away your weapons. A common mistake to exploit from people attacking with weapons is that they fixate on the hand holding that weapon and forget they have other parts of their bodies to attack with.

[Lord Darth Hunter]

True, and when Luke kicks Vader, Vader goes somersaulting down the stairs in such a funny, choreographed way. Vader should've tumbled violently down the steps (especially considering the weight of the suit) the same way Luke did in ESB.

[Poe Dameron]

Pretty sure they had Vader's stunt double on a wire in that scene to demonstrate Luke's power or something. Of course the lateral movement of an object doesn't change the force of gravity so that's a little silly (neither does its weight for that matter).

 

Never really liked the effect myself, but I've usually ignored it. Really, there are a lot of visible choreography errors in the RotJ duel. Particularly considering how short it actually is. If you take away the dialogue, there's really not much actual swordplay involved. Did a quick count and came up with only 69 seconds.

 

1. The first swing of the duel has Vader supposedly stop Luke from attacking the Emperor. But the Emperor is to Luke's right and that's where his swing comes from. Luke actually swings past the Emperor in order to be blocked by Vader. And in the shot where the Emperor is laughing as the sabers are crossed in front of him, Luke's supposedly "blocked" lightsaber is completely free to whack him across his laughing face.

 

2. Dana-kin seems to think the kick is a flaw which leads to the somersault.

 

3. When Luke gives in to his anger and attacks Vader, at first his swings are wild and the momentum of his swings leave him completely open to the point where even an amateur could easily take advantage of him.

 

4. Vader lies down at the end and for all purposes stops defending himself. Luke takes several angry swings at Vader's lightsaber instead of the whole of Vader's undefended body.

 

I could make a case that the choreography of this duel is both the most unrealistic and worst of the whole series with the possible exception of Obi-Wan vs. Grievous. It's saved by the weight of the story being told around it, a couple of cool iconic snippets, and that, storyline-wise, Luke swinging wildly at Vader in his anger feels right to the viewer.

[Driver]

The ROTJ duel choreography is similar to the PT in that if you really watch it it, all parties are targeting the other's saber. Luke at the end of the Jedi duel is the most obvious. He's working like he'll to beat up Vader's saber, not Vader himself.

 

ESB has always been my favorite cause Luke is actively going for kill shots-- he's trying to take Vader down. For his part, Vader mostly defends effortlessly, which fits the story perfectly. When they first head out on the gantry Vader pushes for the first time, but it's not until Luke almost takes his head off that he goes on the offense for real, and the battle ends real fast.

[Filthy Jawa]

If nothing else, this thread has made me want to rewatch Eps. 2 and 3 (something I haven't done since I saw each of them in the theatre.. once).

I totally agree with Poe when he said that TPM has the most SW feel of any movie outside the OT. TPM is the best of the PT to me for that reason. It has many, many flaws, but it's a much tighter story than the overloaded mess that became the rest of the series.

The weird thing about this thread is I find myself agreeing with both sides of a lot of the arguments. The Maul-OWK-QGJ duel is ridiculous when you look at it from a technical standpoint, it doesn't have the emotional weight of many of SW's other duels from a story point of view, the end is sort of nonsensical, and yet I find it just so well done (music, SFX, scenery, choreography) that I enjoy it every time and I do get emotionally into it.

It's like the exact antithesis of Kenobi-Vader in ANH.

[Filthy Jawa]

Finally gonna give mine:

 

1. Luke-Vader (ESB) - come on, its the best in every way.

 

2. Rey-Kylo (TFA) - I get chills every time she catches that lightsabre. The whole emotion of a young woman who by rights should be scared out of her mind (and was the first time she met Kylo) and overcome by anger for what he has done to both Han and Finn... so great.

 

3. QGJ/OWK-Maul (TPM) see comments above

 

4. Obi-Wan-Vader (ANH) A classic. Poor visually by today's standards, but the dialogue and acting bring it way up.

 

5. Luke-Vader (ROTJ) A big gap between 4 and 5 for me. So many issues (as listed by Poe just above), but it's still the resolution of the series so it's on the list.

 

The end. I can't list anything from Eps 2 and 3 because I really don't remember them that well. Plus, I'm pretty sure even if I did, I would prefer to rank every lightsabre battle from The Clone Wars higher (I'm just finally watching it now).

 

Also, I STRONGLY believe Yoda should never have even had a lightsabre, so I don't even want to think about that.

[Filthy Jawa]

p.s. Honorable mention to Obi-Wan vs. Ponda Baba's arm (ANH). Slip that in ranked at 2.5

[The Choc]

I think the thing with Maul isn't that he needed some sort of deep seeded motivations for his character or anything. He could have just done something bad at some point before the last few minutes of the movie.

 

I mean look at Kylo Ren, in the first few minutes of TFA he kills an unarmed elderly man, orders the death of a whole village and stops a lazer bolt in mid air. Then shortly after he uses the Force to torture info out of Poe. So early in the movie we see that this is a bad man who will do bad things and he has powers.

 

We get nothing like that from Maul. He really doesn't do anything especially bad or show himself to be powerful at all until he goes into full on attack mode at the end.

[Guest]

That also would have done a lot.

[DANA-kin Skywalker]

Maul gets cut in half by ObiWan. Anakin gets cut in half by ObiWan. Both come back as robots and cause even bigger problems than when they were whole. Technically he killed nobody and made everything worse. No wonder he went batshit crazy alone on a desert planet.

[Justus]

 

As much as I hate the PT, I actually think highly of the TPM duel. It was a little twirly, but no where near as bad as AOTC or ROTS, and while it may not have been a personal story between the combatants, it GOT personal at the end. Plus, considering that the Sith had been extinct for so long, this was one of the first lightsaber duels Jedi found themselves in.

 

Think about that. Qui-Gon could have all the experience in the world, but never having dueled somebody outside of Jedi sparring? Crazy!

My hatred of Maul blinds me. I think that he's the only part of TPM that I truly hate. He just always came across as someone designed to look "badass" and it never really connected with me. But all of that was more due to pre-release marketing

 

The "badass" character means nothing when he has no impact on the development/journey of the characters--no emotional investment. He shows up for the final fight, kills Jinn, stands there long enough for Kenobi to do something everyone knew was coming, then dies in an act of (heartless) revenge. Snarling, Devil make-up and twirling a lightsaber with no emotional investment does not make a great SW duel. It had no more weight than Kenobi vs. Grievous in ROTS. Spectacle with no meaning.

[Driver]

I don't disagree-- but the idea of a cold killer coming in from nowhere, something you didn't know existed, and he is dangerous and kills your mentor... that's scary and powerful.

 

That said, there's no question that the weight of that didn't actually make it onscreen because Uncle George's grasp of subtext is limited to symbolizing grand political movements... sort of...

[3 & 6 years to go...]

Also, Maul was the first Sith to kill a Jedi in 1000 years.