The I've Seen Rogue One Thread (spoilers OBV)

[Driver]

The quote function doesn't work on my work computer and neither does copy-and-paste, so bare with me.

 

Tank: I . . . never said anything about intelligence level, just that I'm surprised you like the movie. If anything, it's a compliment. And you're making the nubile mistake of defining the EU as books alone. But I have been re-reading the Thrawn trilogy and I honestly don't see how people think this is bad.

 

I just don't see how people like The Force Awakens, especially people who hated Star Trek: Into Darkness. I see them as largely the same stylistically and in writing and pacing.

 

Point one: I dislike the Zahn books because I found them tonally way off from the OT, there was a ton of revisionist and retconned details to Jedi and the Force that I hated, I found the insertion of Mara Jade into the background of the OT was a cheat, I utterly despised the way clones were explained, the characterizations of the big three seemed way off-- and it just didn't FEEL like SW.

 

And I felt this way reading them at age 19 before I was a film or Lit snob.

 

And it's that FEEL that brings me to point two. TFA was the first SW anything that felt right since ROTJ to me. I know its faults, and I get why people hate it-- but for me, nailing that feel was something I've wanted since I wanted as a kid. The PT failed, so it needed to happen. If retreading material needs to happen, I get it.

 

Into Darkness missed on tone, story, and getting the basic requirements of Trek down.

 

Point three-- to keep this from being a derailing, Rogue One in many ways is doing exactly what the EU always did. The difference is, as I've said before, SW was born as a film, and the shift in medium an EU story has no choice to take is already a mark against it for me.

[Zerimar Nyliram]

Fair enough. Thanks for shedding some light on your position for me.

[Mara Jade Skywalker]

Mara, you seem to think I'm coming at your throat. That's not the case. I know you said people have been mean to you and your husband in the past, but I am not one of those people. Although we all love Star Wars, in the end it is just entertainment. There are plenty of worse things to get worked up about.

No, I really don't. I'm arguing against revisionist EU history, both as an EU fan and a historian. Lucas was not involved, nor did he care about the EU other than it making him money, or the occasional character/idea he decided to crib for his own. Ever since Lucas sold Star Wars, he's been put on a pedestal by Legends fans. When in reality, he created the biggest contradictions and caused the biggest retcons. Meanwhile, Dave Filoni and Pablo Hidalgo are treated as Satan by some folks when they've done the most to bring Legends material into canon. It's baffling, and I don't know if I'll ever understand it.

 

But you're right, there are plenty more things to get worked up about, which is why I find all the Legends protests and "raids" and whatever to be silly. It's all fiction. Like what you like, like what you don't. But there's only one group of fans who've called me a traitor, so... *shrug*

[Filthy Jawa]

Soooo.... R1 was fun and all, but does anyone here think this was such a gaping hole in the original story that needed to be filled? I keep reading that in articles about the movie - that this movie 'closes the biggest plot hole' from EpIV.

I personally never felt it was such a plot hole. And if anything this movie sort of doesn't jibe with ANH. I mean doesn't General Dodonna say they've analyzed the plans that Princess "Lee-a" brought and found a weakness? Well, uh, according to this movie the weakness is there intentionally and they already knew that.

So fun movie, but kind of a sh**ty retcon.

I'm sure someone can tell me I've got it wrong though.

[Poe Dameron]

Soooo.... R1 was fun and all, but does anyone here think this was such a gaping hole in the original story that needed to be filled? I keep reading that in articles about the movie - that this movie 'closes the biggest plot hole' from EpIV.

But I personally never felt that was such a plot hole.

 

I've not heard a single person say there was a plot hole that needed filling. And anyone who might suggest there was a plot hole doesn't know the definition of "plot hole" in the first place.

 

 

 

I mean doesn't General Dodonna say they've analyzed the plans that Princess "Lee-a" brought and found a weakness? Well uh according to this movie the weakness is there intentionally and they already knew that.

So fun movie, but kind of a ****ty retcon.

 

The weakness being designed into the Death Star is certainly a retcon, but it's a good one. It does make a bit more sense this way.

 

But I was okay with thinking that it was found on the spot. And I'm a little more okay with them being tipped off in advance.

[Filthy Jawa]

http://motherboard.vice.com/read/the-disk-formats-of-star-wars-rogue-one-spoilers?utm_source=mbtwitter

 

Here's one example (funny article, but the opening paragraph is exactly what I'm talking about). I'm sure I read others. I feel like it may have been in the movie press kit.

[The Choc]

It doesn't seem like alot of the Rebels believe Jyn's story and obviously they had to examine the plans to see exactly where the exhaust port was and how to get near it.

[Filthy Jawa]

The weakness being designed into the Death Star is certainly a retcon, but it's a good one. It does make a bit more sense this way.

 

But I was okay with thinking that it was found on the spot. And I'm a little more okay with them being tipped off in advance.

It just doesn't seem quite right somehow. If the Rebels knew Galen Erso had done this, even had it spelled out exactly where the weakness is, if you're Dodonna would you say: "we've analyzed the plans and found a weakness"? Or would you say: "Remember two days ago we were all talking about the weakness that the sabotaging head engineer put in the Death Star? Well I'm gonna show it to you now."

[The Choc]

It's not a 100% perfect fit but when a story is told over this long a period out of order, I think it's a small price to pay and not a big deal.

[Poe Dameron]

Here's one example (funny article, but the opening paragraph is exactly what I'm talking about).

 

In that guy's defense, he's not calling it a plot hole, he just thinks it's a stupid plot device, which is very different.

 

 

 

If the Rebels knew Galen Erso had done this, even had it spelled out exactly where the weakness is, if you're Dodonna would you say: "we've analyzed the plans and found a weakness"? Or would you say: "Remember two days ago we were all talking about the weakness that the sabotaging head engineer put in the Death Star? Well I'm gonna show it to you now."

 

That's a lot to put on the way a character says something. It's not a biggie in my book. Like I said, I'm cool with or without the retcon.

 

Frankly, Ben addressing Vader as "Darth" is immensely more problematic thanks to the biggest retcon in cinematic history ("I am your father"), and we're doing just fine.

[Filthy Jawa]

I'm obviously being facetious in my phrasing. (Right? It was obvious, right?)

 

I have read a good handful of times people referencing how this movie 'fixes' a plot hole/device/mechanism/point/itreallyisthesame and I disagree that this was something that needed fixing. That's all. It's still a good movie, but I think if anything it makes something in ANH that was fine, just a teensy bit off now.

 

In my mind Obi Wan is mocking Vader by calling him "Darth". He always knew him as Anakin and now he's like "ooh, look at you, you're going by Darth now". I know that's not the case, but that's just my little escape I've created for them. Do I get a No-Prize?

[Poe Dameron]

how this movie 'fixes' a plot hole/device/mechanism/point/itreallyisthesame

 

I'm not trying to be difficult, but there is a major difference between a plot hole and a plot mechanism. A plot hole indicates an error in the plot of some sort. Something like a character dying and then coming back a few scenes later without any explanation. A plot mechanism is something a writer adds in order to make the story do what he wants. Some require more suspension of disbelief than others, but unless it's utterly beyond belief, it's not an error.

 

 

 

and I disagree that this was something that needed fixing.

 

Like I said, I didn't think it did either. I'm fine either way.

 

 

 

In my mind Obi Wan is mocking Vader by calling him "Darth". He always knew him as Anakin and now he's like "ooh, look at you, you're going by Darth now". I know that's not the case, but that's just my little escape I've created for them. Do I get a No-Prize?

 

It's as good an explanation as any. Plot holes and errors can be filled in creatively as well when need be. Writers have been trying to reconcile Han's boast about making the Kessel Run in 12 parsecs for a long time. There have been many explanations over the years ranging from Han lying about it to simultaneously impress Luke and make fun of him for his ignorance (The Force Awakens busted that one I think), to Lucas's contention that it means the computer is better, to the EU's cluster of black holes that Han cut closer to than anyone else had dared, to a simple series of hyperspace jumps on a smuggling route.

[Filthy Jawa]

Yes, okay, I know there is a difference between a hole and a mechanism, but I think the way the writer of the article used it, they were interchangeable. i.e. I think they were implying it was a plot hole. Maybe I'm wrong.

[Kyrian]

Lucas was not involved, nor did he care about the EU other than it making him money, or the occasional character/idea he decided to crib for his own. Ever since Lucas sold Star Wars, he's been put on a pedestal by Legends fans. When in reality, he created the biggest contradictions and caused the biggest retcons. Meanwhile, Dave Filoni and Pablo Hidalgo are treated as Satan by some folks when they've done the most to bring Legends material into canon. It's baffling, and I don't know if I'll ever understand it.

I sometimes feel like I'm one of the few Star Wars fans who has very little respect for Lucas. Yes, he created the universe for us, but his every action shows that he's in it for the money, and he's even explicitly explained it that way too in interviews. Thanks for giving us this universe, George, but for the love of God, stop ****ing around with it so much, quit ****ting on it so you can make more money, jeez.

 

It just doesn't seem quite right somehow. If the Rebels knew Galen Erso had done this, even had it spelled out exactly where the weakness is, if you're Dodonna would you say: "we've analyzed the plans and found a weakness"? Or would you say: "Remember two days ago we were all talking about the weakness that the sabotaging head engineer put in the Death Star? Well I'm gonna show it to you now."

 

To me, that's just a result of forced compartmentalisation for the sake of security, a habit very hard to break. So instead of saying, someone designed a weakness into the Death Star and we're going to exploit it, they tell the pilots they've found a weakness. It works from a security standpoint (no-one asking who designed the weakness or why they did so), a morale standpoint (hey, look how stupid Imperial designers are, that they'd leave a weakpoint for us to aim for! Look how clever our people are for finding it!), and stops awkward questions (so why can't this person design more weakpoints for us? Why couldn't they just blow it up themselves?). The Rebellion that we know has always traditionally worked in cells (not just the EU/Legends Rebellion, but also the Rebel group that the Ghost crew belong to is referred to as a cell multiple times through the Rebels TV show), and that's how they operate. The more you know, the more you can reveal during interrogation, so the less you know, the safer it is for everyone involved, though of course that does have its' own particular drawbacks.

[Poe Dameron]

 

 

Yes, he created the universe for us, but his every action shows that he's in it for the money, and he's even explicitly explained it that way too in interviews.

 

This is bias getting in the way of your thoughts. Had Lucas only been interested in cashing in, he wouldn't have shut down the series after the first three movies for the next decade and a half. He would have kept going after the Prequels. That television series would have been produced. He wouldn't have been as distressed as he obviously was with how they covered The Force Awakens in sameness.

 

The notion that he's some dirty capitalist sucking all the life out of Star Wars is patently false. We are incredibly lucky that we had someone who took as good care to keep the franchise relatively fresh and special as Lucas did by not doing cash grabs all those years. If Fox had kept control of the sequels in the 70s, Star Wars would have been driven into the ground as irrelevant by the early-90s as a franchise and we would have gotten a limp reboot a couple years back.

 

The fact that the franchise is in its 40th year and setting records is all you need to know to give Lucas credit for being, ultimately, a good steward.

[Kyrian]

The fact that the franchise is in its 40th year and setting records is all you need to know to give Lucas credit for being, ultimately, a good steward.

 

A good steward would not have allowed the Star Wars universe to continue with the EU and then make three movies that contradicted so much of what had been established in the EU. If the EU contradicted with what he had planned for the PT, he should not have allowed it to be published/produced. I'll freely admit that he was very clever in his handling of the contracts and deals with the movie studios to retain control over his IP, and that he's not a sell-out (even after the sale to Disney, it's clear that he handed the reins over to people who cared about the franchise), but that still doesn't excuse the whole Prequels/EU/Legends situation.

[Poe Dameron]

 

 

but that still doesn't excuse the whole Prequels/EU/Legends situation.

 

What situation are you referring to? The Prequels and the EU had some inconsistencies, but they existed together just fine for many years. Legends is on Disney.

[Kyrian]

Some inconsistencies? There were some major retcons that had to happen around the time of the Prequels, to explain things like how Jaster Mereel wasn't actually Boba Fett as we found out in one of the Tales of books, he was his "father"s mentor, and other things just weren't addressed at all, like how Zahn describes the Clone Wars as clones going mad and rampaging across the galaxy, rather than what we were shown in the movies. They eventually got along, but only after some serious tapdancing by EU authors, but there were still elements that just didn't sit right at all. Plus, if Lucas had simply not allowed the EU or had held tighter control over the story lines in the first place, only allowing them to tell certain stories, then Disney would never have felt the need to label the old EU as Legends. If Lucas really wanted to tell the story of 7-9, there's no way he would have allowed other stories in his universe to exist that would either directly contradict his plans or limit them in any way. Again, bad stewardship over his own IP has led to this situation. He didn't sell out, but he damn sure milked that cow when it was convenient for him, and then shat all over the hard work put into the EU when he decided to make the Prequels and completely ignore the EU as it suited him.

[Poe Dameron]

I know there were retcons, but in the grand scheme of things, they were relatively mild. The authors were directed not to write about certain things, avoid talking too much about the the era when Anakin was young or the clones wars (I don't think your description of Zahn's version is correct btw) and to keep things vague. Some authors still got burned worse than others, but as a fan I pretty much just rolled with it. And I suspect the authors were generally okay with it as well.

 

That was just the nature of the beast. Lucas wasn't intimately involved in the EU, so he left the authors to their own devices. That doesn't make it all about money. Frankly, the revenues generated from the EU were likely chump change in the grand scheme of Star Wars money. Lucas hadn't intended to ever make movies post Endor by the early-90s, so he thought he was safe letting other writers tell Luke, Han, and Leia's story. Again, the writers were told to stay away from areas in the Prequel era because Lucas had intentions of going there himself one day. There was certainly a demand for those stories, which is why they flourished. Had Lucas not sold everything to Disney, it essentially would have remained Luke's story. That's all pretty important stuff.

 

The only one that annoyed me was way they treated Karen Traviss. She specialized in the Mandalorians and lovingly put together their culture over several novels only to get rather screwed over by The Clone Wars series for no good reason, causing her to leave her series unfinished. That could have been handled better and came at a time when the EU and the films were supposed to be better integrated.

[Driver]

Lucas and money was never an issue. Lucas as an idea man and EP also not an issue.

 

Lucas as a director and writer, not so good. The best Star Wars results in him hiring people who can do their jobs well to bring his concepts to life.

[Zerimar Nyliram]

Yeah, that pissed me off as well. I actually gained a lot of respect for Ms. Traviss when she left the franchise for that reason, having previously been angry at her for killing off Mara Jade (poorly) without Timothy Zahn's approval.

And I did not mean to imply that Lucas was intimately involved with the EU, apart from a few projects like The Force Unleashed and The Clone Wars. That was maybe a bit of an overstatement. Call it backpedaling if you wish, but I do tend to get carried away sometimes.

 

The statement by Dodonna is actually explained excellently by the EU! Even though it was clearly not intended to be within the same canon, the two stories actually fit together quite nicely. In the EU, several agents are sent to steal different portions of the plans stored in different locations throughout Imperial space, which were then combined into one master blueprint by the Alliance. When introducing Rogue One, which takes place slightly later than all of those previous stories do, it can be theorized that the master plans created from the ones obtained by Kyle Katarn and others turned up no structural weaknesses. That changed when the plans that Jyn obtained on Scarif were thrown into the mix at the last minute. With that in mind, Dodonna could well be right in that the Alliance has been examining these plans six ways to Sunday, but finally found what they were looking for when the final portion was introduced.

Works for me.

 

Also, I have no qualms with Lucas being called a capitalist because I like capitalism. It brought us Star Wars in the first place.

[Lord Darth Hunter]

I sometimes feel like I'm one of the few Star Wars fans who has very little respect for Lucas. Yes, he created the universe for us, but his every action shows that he's in it for the money, and he's even explicitly explained it that way too in interviews. Thanks for giving us this universe, George, but for the love of God, stop ****ing around with it so much, quit ****ting on it so you can make more money, jeez.

I don't understand what it is you're upset with? You wanted him to stop after ANH? Cuz to truly say it was about the art, not the money, you'd have to just make ANH and then leave it alone. Or maybe after ESB and ROTJ? There should've been nothing SW related after those 3 films were made? No books, comics, nothing else ever again. Is that what you wish had happened?

[Zerimar Nyliram]

You know what I've always wondered? I know that there are many fans who are original-Trilogy purists, but are there any who are such originalists that they only accept the first movie, and not Empire or Jedi?

[Driver]

I've never loved Jedi as much as the first two, even when they were the only movies. I recall skipping the SE release of Jedi. In a lot of ways ROTJ is a portend of all the things that are bad about SW that the PT went to town with.

 

But I never discounted it.

 

ESB will of course likely always be the best SW movie, but I have in the last 5-6 years come to appreciate ANH as a superior piece of revolutionary filmmaking compared to the rest of the saga.

[The Choc]

I'm actually a super conservative old believer The Star Wars fan. I only accept Lucas' draft entitled "The Adventures of Luke Skywalker as taken from 'The Journal of the Whills'"