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The I've Seen Rogue One Thread (spoilers OBV)


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Rumors say the castle was established here cause Kylo visits its ruins in E8.

It's a good thing they are doing something new and unique, and not using some EU idea.
Vader's lava castle was an idea from early ROTJ drafts and the subject of McQuarrie art-- two things the ST is big on recycling.
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Kylo Ren doesn't exist (to me). :p

 

Rumors say the castle was established here cause Kylo visits its ruins in E8.


It's a good thing they are doing something new and unique, and not using some EU idea.

 

Dude, all they've been doing up till now was rehashing EU ideas! The entirety of The Force Awakens was one big carbon copy of A New Hope and events from the EU. Did you know there was even a dude named Kybo Ren?

But I'm sure nobody wants to hear me talk about that.

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Rumors say the castle was established here cause Kylo visits its ruins in E8.

It's a good thing they are doing something new and unique, and not using some EU idea.
Vader's lava castle was an idea from early ROTJ drafts and the subject of McQuarrie art-- two things the ST is big on recycling.

 

Yeah, you're right. It can even be seen in the M&M's commercials from 2005. Anybody catch that when watching Rogue One? I did. It was rad! Made me hungry for M&M's.

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The EU stole all its tech from the RPG which raided the concept art. A lot of background info on Jedi and cultures/planets in the early EU were taken from the annotated screenplays and early drafts.

 

Saying the TFA Has a recycled plot has merit, but saying they stole from the EU is silly when they are all cribbing from the same source material.

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The RPG is EU. Timothy Zahn and other writers were given those source books to study when writing their stories so as to keep all continuity as one.

It's true about the annotated screenplays, I'll give you that.

 

You heard me when I mentioned Kybo Ren, right? You want to tell me that is coincidence, too? Maybe that was more of an homage; I'll give it that, but when you character is 90% exactly like an EU character who is the son of the same two people and does the exact same thing, and bears the name of one of his cousins in the EU, and wears a costume almost identical to another EU character . . . I'm sorry, but coincidence goes only so far. They knew exactly what they were doing. They even said they would occasionally pull concepts and characters from the EU to reuse them in the Disney universe. I just didn't think they would actually do it in the movies themselves. That I want nothing to do with.

But if they can keep churning our stuff like Rogue One which can fit in either universe - even though even that story was a bit of a retread - I will have no problem being on board.

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No way.

 

The EU is just as guilty of it as TFA.

 

Zahn getting the RPG sourcebooks is exactly my point-- a vast majority of SW content comes from unused and recycled material from the movies.

 

You say Kylo's look rips off Revaan, but Revaan's look was inspired by unused Sith apprentice art from the PT.

 

There is little in the EU that isn't inspired by or derived from something outside the scope of the development of the movies.

 

The EU and the new canon crib from the same sources. There's going to be similarities. I get being annoyed that something was done first in a way less people care about, but that doesn't make anything done after it automatically null and void and bad.

 

Thrown is a good example. His first appearance is no longer canon, but it informed his new canon version in rebels.

 

Nothing is original when you're playing in an established universe.

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Oh God, don't even get me started on the bastardized Thrawn. The chronologist I follow considers Rebels canon with the EU, but I don't see how the Thrawn episodes could possibly be. I'll probably binge watch the entire series once it's done, just like I did with The Clone Wars, and make my judgment then. Dave Filoni tends to butcher good characters.

 

I guess you have a point. The Force Awakens is seriously crap, though. To be honest, I'm surprised you like it.

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Not gonna get into an argument over old EU vs new EU, but one thing that really annoyed me in the old EU was the continuity - George never really cared what the EU had established, and so a lot the background and story elements ended up contradicting itself. At least now we have one story group maintaining consistency, which I've really liked.

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I'm sorry, but what you're saying is simply not true. Story Group is off to a pretty poor start. They said everything being put out now is canon. Well, does that mean that it is now canon that Palpatine accompanied Vader to Echo Base on Hoth and slaughtered a bunch of people along with him like he did in Battlefront? That obviously contradicts the films. And Marvel had Vader go to Tatooine, a planet he would never set foot on ever again as part of an old identity, and didn't even make any mention of him sensing Obi-Wan's presence - which was the whole reason why Obi-Wan was hiding on Tatooine anyway. And those are just the ones I know about.

What you said about George Lucas not caring about the EU only became true in the last couple of years, since we all know that Lucas is prone to change his mind frequently and then claim that his latest position was the one he held all along. George Lucas supplied material for EU writers, altered stories that were going in directions he did not approve of, was directly involved in the story-crafting process, prevented writers from killing off certain characters (including Luke) and approving others (like Chewbacca).

The stories had a few inconsistencies, as anything that large and homogeneous is prone to have, but very few contradictions. In fact, what you are remembering as "contradictions" were probably not contradictions at all, or very easily rectified. In fact, Star Wars had one of the most consistent EUs in sci-fi history. The Holocron Community - what has now become Story Group - kept it all in line.

Finally, the notion of "old EU" versus "new EU." There is only one EU: that which is now called Legends. Disney and LucasFilm have no name for the non-film materials they are putting out now. I once proposed my own name for it, which was not well received on these boards.

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I guess you have a point. The Force Awakens is seriously crap, though. To be honest, I'm surprised you like it.

We've danced this dance a long time without going after the taste and intelligence level of the other. If you want to go down this road I can Say I am just as surprised as you with adults being super into what amounts to YA fiction and start in on the merits of the contributions the EU books have made to literature (zero) versus the SW films contributions to cinema (many).
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The Vader setting foot on Tatooine isn't a contradiction, it's just an element of the story you don't like or agree with. I don't agree he would never go back to Tatooine - it means nothing to him as Vader. He might not go there for a vacation but if he needs to go there for any reason then nothing is going to stop him. (and if I'm not mistaken the issue you refer to is after Obi Wan's death? He was inspecting Obi Wan's hutt?)

 

Anyway, the rest, like you said, we all know George was prone to change his mind and that was in large the big problem for me and the existing EU. Sure they were probably able to rectify it but it always felt like a band aid solution, a workaround for whatever has been established in the films. I'm excited at the prospect of the EU having a larger influence on the films - old and new. I never thought I would see Thrawn or Vader's Castle on screen, and yet here we are. The new EU can go in places the old couldn't because of George.

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I'm gonna regret this, but....

 

1. The retconning of Legends history into something where there were few contradictions and Lucas didn't start steamrolling things as early as the prequel trilogy (and that he actually cared about it and was involved to begin with) is absolutely fascinating to me - but I shouldn't be surprised considering how much Legends material involved retcons!

 

2. Thrawn in Rebels is amazing and 100% in line with Legends Thrawn. Zahn says so. :p

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The quote function doesn't work on my work computer and neither does copy-and-paste, so bare with me.

 

Tank: I . . . never said anything about intelligence level, just that I'm surprised you like the movie. If anything, it's a compliment. And you're making the nubile mistake of defining the EU as books alone. But I have been re-reading the Thrawn trilogy and I honestly don't see how people think this is bad. It's not Jane Austin, to be sure, but by contemporary standards I can't see how it is anything less than "good," not even mediocre. Granted, there is some crap as well, but that's life.

 

I just don't see how people like The Force Awakens, especially people who hated Star Trek: Into Darkness. I see them as largely the same stylistically and in writing and pacing.

Darth Wader: But see, that's part of the EU's charm for me. I like that they had to come up with creative ways to rethink things in light of the prequels. Yes, sometimes it can get a little chintzy, but the chintziness is part of the charm as well.

Here's a comparison for you: You know how many fans are opposed to any of George Lucas' alterations to the original Trilogy, of any kind whatsoever, even minor ones that improve quality? They like the old stuff better, even if it looked incredibly low-budget and fake. It's what they grew up with. That's sort of how I feel about the EU: It's mostly coherent with a few stretches here and there, but it all came together as an organic whole. I don't want some rebooted, squeaky-clean narrative being constructed after the fact.

Mara: It's not a retcon. You're buying into that revisionist history. Pick up the anniversary edition of Heir to the Empire and read about how involved George Lucas was with Timothy Zahn.

Remember that sucky Dark Empire? Guess whose idea it was to resurrect the Emperor? That's right: George Lucas! Originally, it was supposed to feature an imposter Darth Vader reclaiming his authority over the Empire (which sounds more interesting to me).

 

Remember New Jedi Order? Yep, George Lucas was directly overseeing that one as well. He would not allow them to kill off Luke Skywalker and offered up Chewbacca instead.

Remember The Force Unleashed? Lucas was more involved with that project than probably anything else ever, apart from The Clone Wars. He would refer to it as the next chapter in the Star Wars saga. It may as well have been considered G-canon. (Even though, in usual George Lucas fashion, he bitched about it later on, shortly before selling the company to Disney. He changes his mind a lot and pretends he's always felt that way, as most people know.)

The evidence was all there. I'm really not sure why you choose to deny it. I'm surprised to see that from a former EU fan.

And Thrawn in Rebels is problematic because Thrawn was a captain at this point in the timeline. And Zahn is speaking in terms of the new canon. He knows that Thrawn's new history is something separate from what came before. I will be interested to know how the chronologist I follow retcons this one (unless Rebels, like The Clone Wars, is also COMPNOR propaganda with a grain of truth but mostly Imperial fabricated holo vids, as the Force and Destiny rule book suggests).

Pavonis: Yes, you have my blessing!

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I may have come off a little harsh toward Mara there. Mara, I'm sorry if I did, but surely you knew about these things having followed the EU for so many years? It's not new information.

Also, I just realized a bit of irony regarding two members here: Mara Jade Skywalker and Poe Dameron. The former is named after an old-canon character and prefers the new canon, and the other is the exact opposite. Neat!

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Way to twist it into something it's not.

 

No, I like what I like. There are plenty of non-canon stories that I like; I'm just not interested in Disney's stuff because it's too been-there-done-that. I actually follow several chronologists, but I have one that I prefer over the others. I arrange my timeline based on parts of all of them.

 

Nice try, though.

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I'm bored, so why not?

Mara: It's not a retcon. You're buying into that revisionist history. Pick up the anniversary edition of Heir to the Empire and read about how involved George Lucas was with Timothy Zahn.

 

Remember that sucky Dark Empire? Guess whose idea it was to resurrect the Emperor? That's right: George Lucas! Originally, it was supposed to feature an imposter Darth Vader reclaiming his authority over the Empire (which sounds more interesting to me).

 

Remember New Jedi Order? Yep, George Lucas was directly overseeing that one as well. He would not allow them to kill off Luke Skywalker and offered up Chewbacca instead.

Remember The Force Unleashed? Lucas was more involved with that project than probably anything else ever, apart from The Clone Wars. He would refer to it as the next chapter in the Star Wars saga. It may as well have been considered G-canon. (Even though, in usual George Lucas fashion, he bitched about it later on, shortly before selling the company to Disney. He changes his mind a lot and pretends he's always felt that way, as most people know.)

The evidence was all there. I'm really not sure why you choose to deny it. I'm surprised to see that from a former EU fan.

And Thrawn in Rebels is problematic because Thrawn was a captain at this point in the timeline. And Zahn is speaking in terms of the new canon. He knows that Thrawn's new history is something separate from what came before. I will be interested to know how the chronologist I follow retcons this one (unless Rebels, like The Clone Wars, is also COMPNOR propaganda with a grain of truth but mostly Imperial fabricated holo vids, as the Force and Destiny rule book suggests).

1. I've read the HttE 20th anniversary edition many times. I'm currently doing a podcast all about the Thrawn trilogy. I'm quite aware of EU history, thanks!

2. Lol, no. George Lucas pretty much had nothing to do with writing the Thrawn Trilogy other than signing off on the project. All the story feedback (like about the clone Obi-Wan) came from Lucasfilm the company, not Lucas himself. I'm actually not certain if Zahn has ever met Lucas.

3. Lol, Dark Empire. Sure, maybe the clone Emperor idea came from Lucas. Not sure why you think that giving an initial idea means Lucas was hugely involved in the story.

4. Lucas did NOT oversee NJO. Del Rey asked Lucasbooks who they could kill off. The response was that they could kill Chewie. The editors also received feedback that Lucas (or someone speaking for him) didn't want Anakin Solo to be the main hero of the series, so they changed that role to Jacen. And that was pretty much all of Lucas's involvement.

5. Sure, Lucas was more involved in The Force Unleashed, I'll give you that. The Force Unleashed also overwrote old EU lore about the formation of the Rebellion, but okay.

6. Lucas signed off on stories. That was the extent of his involvement, with the exception of certain projects (TFU being one of them). Sometimes, it wasn't even him that signed off on them, but members of his company. Eventually, that's why Leland Chee got his job. I'm not sure why you insist that Lucas had some huge role in the story development. He didn't care. That's why we ended up with a Clone Wars timeline that totally contradicted Heir to the Empire.

7. Just out of curiosity - Nathan P. Butler?

8. Actually, Zahn has said that Thrawn covers a period of his life that was previously unknown, so Thrawn could probably fit into Legends, and vice versa. Also, who cares if Thrawn was supposed to be a captain during the Rebels time period? We're talking about a saga in which characters died in prior comics/books and then ended up dying again in The Clone Wars show - a show that Lucas was involved with on a day-to-day basis.

9. Besides, I was referring to the characterization of Thrawn, not continuity issues like his rank. When Thrawn is on screen I feel like I'm reading a story and dialogue written by Zahn. They've done a fantastic job with his character. I don't care that he's not supposed to be a Grand Admiral until a cut scene in TIE Fighter.


I may have come off a little harsh toward Mara there. Mara, I'm sorry if I did, but surely you knew about these things having followed the EU for so many years? It's not new information.

Also, I just realized a bit of irony regarding two members here: Mara Jade Skywalker and Poe Dameron. The former is named after an old-canon character and prefers the new canon, and the other is the exact opposite. Neat!

 

I've followed the EU for a looooong time, since Heir to the Empire, and that's why your insistence that Lucas was so involved with the EU amuses me so much.

 

I also don't prefer one timeline to the other. I just don't have any interest in continuing the Legends storyline. The ST timeline is new. I want new stories.

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1. Okay.

 

2. The notes say that Zahn talked to Lucas on the phone.

3. I didn't say he was.

4. Okay, my mistake.

5. It retconned it. The Declaration of Rebellion was said to have occurred Corellia involving the same people. They simply added Kota and Starkiller and had Vader break up the party. I don't see how that's such a huge problem.

6. The fact that the Holocron Community became a thing kind of tells me that there was some measure of care on Lucas' part, even if it is not nearly as great as Leland Chee's.

 

7. Butler's one of them, but the one I like best is StarWarsTimeline.net. I can't remember what the guy's name is at the moment, but he used to go by the screen name of Darth_Bane on the Dark Horse Comics forums, and he and I used to have many discussions together. He has the same attitude I do: be as inclusive as possible, but with preference on the old canon. The only place where he and I differ, however, is that he does no consider The Force Unleashed canon, whereas I do. That's why I have no idea how I'm going to stomach Rebels when I finally see it.

 

8. Well, The Clone Wars was hinted to be a COMPNOR-created series of Imperial propaganda holo vids loosely based on fact, so that takes care of most of the inconsistencies. The same could be true for Rebels, so that might take care of the Thrawn rank issue.

 

9. Well, that's good to hear.


Mara, you seem to think I'm coming at your throat. That's not the case. I know you said people have been mean to you and your husband in the past, but I am not one of those people. Although we all love Star Wars, in the end it is just entertainment. There are plenty of worse things to get worked up about.

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