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Trump already making America great again- gets Carrier to keep jobs in IN


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I am not impressed so far.

If Trump cured cancer, you wouldn't be impressed. You're a Democrat, we get it.

 

Why did it take Trump doing this before you gave a crap about the poors and the middle class rust belt production workers? I remember threads that weren't all that long ago where you talked about eugenics and how old people need to just hurry up and die, and such. I think that is the most astonishing thing about this thread: you sound almost compassionate.

 

I don't think I ever said I wanted old people to hurry up and die. I did create a tongue-in-cheek thread about baby boomers, but the point of that thread was that a lot of the current problems the US faces are due to short-sighted policy decisions by that generation and their selfishness, as well as their indifference as to structural problems facing entitlement programs, since they'll be long gone when the chickens come home to roost (another example of their selfishness), and to point out that the Boomers seem to have amazing callousness about the future of this country and they'll likely never have to pay the costs for their decisions (but we will). The thread was also intended to point out that we can't have our cake and eat it too- i.e., in regards to health care, we can't both cover everyone, and somehow not raise taxes or have death panels. Something has to give, but most leftists in this debate just assume the magical universal health care fairy will somehow solve everything if only we'd vote for it.

 

I also don't think I ever advocated for eugenics. What I have advocated for (and I assume this is what you were referring to), was that thread about parental licensing and reducing the reproduction rate of unproductive members of society. But if you go back and read that thread, I was not advocating for anything forced (like mandatory abortions or sterilization or whatever), and in fact, I even said that if we had parental licensing and reduced the reproduction of certain demographics, that would free up significant amount of money to pay for people in terms of welfare benefits, health care, and so on.

 

Chalup, I've always cared about these people. Yeah, I know I've sometimes made fun of them here and there, especially when I used to ride the subway into work everyday (and you see some truly special cases on the NYC subway), and it's certainly true that I have very little in common, culturally or otherwise, with the working classes, being a lifelong (well, most of my life anyway) Manhattan resident. But I've never dismissed, outright, entire swaths of our country. It's true that I once was more of a free-markets person, but I was also considerably more naive at that time. The economic theory is all sound, of course, but unfortunately it's only in our benefit if the US has a comparative advantage, which in many industries, we do not. So yes, there has been significant amounts of growth and wealth generation, but it has almost entirely been in China- so congratulations, China gets to build a middle class while ours goes the way of the dodo. And a few other shareholders here get to benefit too (which I as well... my investments have increased by an incredible amount, and I was already wealthy to begin with), but like I said... I dunno... maybe living abroad for several years changed my perspective. I was already becoming more nationalist and protectionist before I left, but maybe leaving made me realize that the US is ultimately my home, and always will be, that I don't really belong anywhere else. And it sure would be nice to see the next generation grow up in the country I did, and not some decaying whimper of American greatness, a country that more resembles Brazil... with masses of slums and a few nice areas.

 

See, Chalup, history has shown us time and time again what happens to decaying empires- the Roman, the Byzantine, the Ottoman, the Qing dynasty of China, the British... it's not exactly rocket science, the same symptoms always pop up again and we're seeing them here. It won't be a sudden collapse, just like the UK didn't go from world's most powerful empire to pathetic vassal state of the US in one day. It's a process, and the decay of the US may take 50-100 years, but the signs of decay are there. One of the few areas where we have an absolute advantage over any country is military power, which is part of the reason why I started this thread "It's about time to have another world war," which was tongue-in-cheek, but the point was that we do still have significant global sway in at least one area, but we are extremely meek when it comes to throwing our weight around and forcing countries to bend the knee when appropriate. So no, I wasn't serious in that thread, but what I'm trying to say, is that we have the ability to actually threaten things like a 45% tariff, or a demand for concessions in agreements like NAFTA or like the NATO treaty... but we don't. Our leaders, for decades, act like feckless losers that are scared of their own shadow when we have 10 aircraft carriers and most other countries in the entire world can't even manufacture a single fighter jet. And we squander this advantage, mainly because too many people in national leadership are quite frankly, p-ssies. So does Trump speak to that? Yeah, I guess so. By the way, that thread was created almost 6 years ago, so this is not a new feeling of mine.. you can see where I've been going with this for years now.

 

So yeah, I've made fun of the working classes, sure. But I sure as sh-t rather see them working at a Carrier plant in the US and providing for their families and having a job, then just being roaming hordes of methheads in shells of cities right off the set of the Walking Dead. I'd like the next generation to actually have a country to live in. And if I have to pay some more taxes for that, whatever. We can go back to debating over stupid sh-t like transgender restrooms, precisely when a fetus becomes a life, whether the tax rate should be this percent or that percent, and so on.. later. Right now, we have to worry about saving this country from just being another chapter in the World History textbook.

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That might be true, but I still don't understand what your criticism is.

 

A 50 year old dude working at Carrier with no education beyond HS that already has several kids isn't going "back to school" to learn something else. In the latter years of his life he isn't going to suddenly morph into some wizard programmer that can compete with millennials and land a six-figure job at Google. So let's cut the sh-t and how bout some real talk. What exactly are we supposed to do with this guy, just tell him to "go f-ck himself?"

 

I'm not precisely sure what your point is Spam.

Not really any criticism at all. Just a big ole' bowl of meh because in the long run it doesn't help for the future. It keeps a few jobs around in the US for may a little while. At least until those special tax cuts expire. I'm not good at posting refined points but essentially I don't think this is as big as it's being made to be.

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It is fascinating to see how left-leaning news agencies are fumbling over themselves to try to convey that saving these jobs as a negative (and how right-leaning media took similar actions with with Obama). I am not saying that these reports aren't frequently without merit, but rather are quite essential. However, it is too predictable of how each agency will report on an event. It is no wonder the country is so divided when people insulate themselves from different points-of-view by only getting news from a certain media source.

 

I have a friend that lives in Times Square that proudly proclaims himself to be part if the "liberal elite". He believes everyone that voted for Trump is either racist, sexist, homophobic, or most likely some combination of all of the above. He is refusing to talk to me because I voted for Johnson so therefore Trump being elected is my fault. He defriends anyone on Facebook that has even hinted at voted for Trump. Now he won't stop posting about how this Carrier is a raw deal...and he is from rural Ohio...which he proclaims on FB he will never return to due to feeling "unsafe" in a state that voted for Trump (because he is gay)...whom I am supposed to have dinner with when I go to Ohio over Christmas...yeah...

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LOL. I'm not trying to pry... it's none of my business. But- why are you friends with this guy?

 

This sort of sentiment is, in large part, why I was pushed towards the Right starting around college, and why I gradually stopped hanging out with people in progressive circles, even if I'm (admittedly) a Manhattan native and (I suppose) cultural elitist that may agree with a lot of their issues. It just got to a point where it was too much of a chore. Sometimes you just wanna go hang out with friends and watch the Giants game, and just shoot the sh-t about.. I dunno.. Game of Thrones or whatever, and not have every f-cking conversation ultimately devolve into some criticism of the patriarchy or how everyone is racist.

 

By the way, why am I not surprised that he's actually from rural OH? It's always the loudest voices that aren't even from here. I loved pointing this out to these people, just to see their reaction (it was kinda like that face melting scene from Raiders of the Lost Ark). I actually lost a couple 'friends' over that, but it wasn't a big loss.

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I am not impressed so far.

If Trump cured cancer, you wouldn't be impressed. You're a Democrat, we get it.

Why did it take Trump doing this before you gave a crap about the poors and the middle class rust belt production workers? I remember threads that weren't all that long ago where you talked about eugenics and how old people need to just hurry up and die, and such. I think that is the most astonishing thing about this thread: you sound almost compassionate.

I don't think I ever said I wanted old people to hurry up and die. I did create a tongue-in-cheek thread about baby boomers, but the point of that thread was that a lot of the current problems the US faces are due to short-sighted policy decisions by that generation and their selfishness, as well as their indifference as to structural problems facing entitlement programs, since they'll be long gone when the chickens come home to roost (another example of their selfishness), and to point out that the Boomers seem to have amazing callousness about the future of this country and they'll likely never have to pay the costs for their decisions (but we will). The thread was also intended to point out that we can't have our cake and eat it too- i.e., in regards to health care, we can't both cover everyone, and somehow not raise taxes or have death panels. Something has to give, but most leftists in this debate just assume the magical universal health care fairy will somehow solve everything if only we'd vote for it.

 

I also don't think I ever advocated for eugenics. What I have advocated for (and I assume this is what you were referring to), was that thread about parental licensing and reducing the reproduction rate of unproductive members of society. But if you go back and read that thread, I was not advocating for anything forced (like mandatory abortions or sterilization or whatever), and in fact, I even said that if we had parental licensing and reduced the reproduction of certain demographics, that would free up significant amount of money to pay for people in terms of welfare benefits, health care, and so on.

 

Chalup, I've always cared about these people. Yeah, I know I've sometimes made fun of them here and there, especially when I used to ride the subway into work everyday (and you see some truly special cases on the NYC subway), and it's certainly true that I have very little in common, culturally or otherwise, with the working classes, being a lifelong (well, most of my life anyway) Manhattan resident. But I've never dismissed, outright, entire swaths of our country. It's true that I once was more of a free-markets person, but I was also considerably more naive at that time. The economic theory is all sound, of course, but unfortunately it's only in our benefit if the US has a comparative advantage, which in many industries, we do not. So yes, there has been significant amounts of growth and wealth generation, but it has almost entirely been in China- so congratulations, China gets to build a middle class while ours goes the way of the dodo. And a few other shareholders here get to benefit too (which I as well... my investments have increased by an incredible amount, and I was already wealthy to begin with), but like I said... I dunno... maybe living abroad for several years changed my perspective. I was already becoming more nationalist and protectionist before I left, but maybe leaving made me realize that the US is ultimately my home, and always will be, that I don't really belong anywhere else. And it sure would be nice to see the next generation grow up in the country I did, and not some decaying whimper of American greatness, a country that more resembles Brazil... with masses of slums and a few nice areas.

 

See, Chalup, history has shown us time and time again what happens to decaying empires- the Roman, the Byzantine, the Ottoman, the Qing dynasty of China, the British... it's not exactly rocket science, the same symptoms always pop up again and we're seeing them here. It won't be a sudden collapse, just like the UK didn't go from world's most powerful empire to pathetic vassal state of the US in one day. It's a process, and the decay of the US may take 50-100 years, but the signs of decay are there. One of the few areas where we have an absolute advantage over any country is military power, which is part of the reason why I started this thread "It's about time to have another world war," which was tongue-in-cheek, but the point was that we do still have significant global sway in at least one area, but we are extremely meek when it comes to throwing our weight around and forcing countries to bend the knee when appropriate. So no, I wasn't serious in that thread, but what I'm trying to say, is that we have the ability to actually threaten things like a 45% tariff, or a demand for concessions in agreements like NAFTA or like the NATO treaty... but we don't. Our leaders, for decades, act like feckless losers that are scared of their own shadow when we have 10 aircraft carriers and most other countries in the entire world can't even manufacture a single fighter jet. And we squander this advantage, mainly because too many people in national leadership are quite frankly, p-ssies. So does Trump speak to that? Yeah, I guess so. By the way, that thread was created almost 6 years ago, so this is not a new feeling of mine.. you can see where I've been going with this for years now.

 

So yeah, I've made fun of the working classes, sure. But I sure as sh-t rather see them working at a Carrier plant in the US and providing for their families and having a job, then just being roaming hordes of methheads in shells of cities right off the set of the Walking Dead. I'd like the next generation to actually have a country to live in. And if I have to pay some more taxes for that, whatever. We can go back to debating over stupid sh-t like transgender restrooms, precisely when a fetus becomes a life, whether the tax rate should be this percent or that percent, and so on.. later. Right now, we have to worry about saving this country from just being another chapter in the World History textbook.

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This sort of sentiment is, in large part, why I was pushed towards the Right starting around college, and why I gradually stopped hanging out with people in progressive circles, even if I'm (admittedly) a Manhattan native and (I suppose) cultural elitist that may agree with a lot of their issues. It just got to a point where it was too much of a chore. Sometimes you just wanna go hang out with friends and watch the Giants game, and just shoot the sh-t about.. I dunno.. Game of Thrones or whatever, and not have every f-cking conversation ultimately devolve into some criticism of the patriarchy or how everyone is racist.

Or end up like me: the guy a lot of liberals like this talk to in private when they want to finally get it off their chest that they think cultural leftism and non stop identity politics is complete horses**t but can't do so where they work or with their peer groups for fear of being called racist, etc. I hear from guys like this all the time. Right wing socialists too. People who are big on keeping the "darkies" out and wish we could have one, just one more crusade. Promise they won't screw it up this time, but are too afraid to publicly admit that they kinda like their public health care and wish they had a guaranteed income. So I've basically taken to moderating Facebook pages and groups full of people like this.

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LOL. I'm not trying to pry... it's none of my business. But- why are you friends with this guy?

 

This sort of sentiment is, in large part, why I was pushed towards the Right starting around college, and why I gradually stopped hanging out with people in progressive circles, even if I'm (admittedly) a Manhattan native and (I suppose) cultural elitist that may agree with a lot of their issues. It just got to a point where it was too much of a chore. Sometimes you just wanna go hang out with friends and watch the Giants game, and just shoot the sh-t about.. I dunno.. Game of Thrones or whatever, and not have every f-cking conversation ultimately devolve into some criticism of the patriarchy or how everyone is racist.

 

By the way, why am I not surprised that he's actually from rural OH? It's always the loudest voices that aren't even from here. I loved pointing this out to these people, just to see their reaction (it was kinda like that face melting scene from Raiders of the Lost Ark). I actually lost a couple 'friends' over that, but it wasn't a big loss.

He is a friend of a friend. I have hung out with a him a few times and had a good time. However, the last time we hung out he was insufferable because he couldn't stop talking about how he is friends with the cast of SNL.

 

Honestly, I don't give a shit about someone's personal life and views. If they are a good POTUS that doesn't allow personal feelings to get in the way of good policy, I don't give a fuck if he is the current Grand Wizard of the KKK or thinks the world is 6000 years old. Great world leaders and great people rarely go hand-in-hand. A candidates likability has actually no impact on my vote. In fact, all things being equal, I bet I would vote for somepne less likable because I feel they aren't out to kiss everyone's ass.

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Guest El Chalupacabra

CM,

 

I am not being critical of you for being supportive of trying to keep, indeed bringing jobs back, to the US. I agree that really since the early 1990s, as the US has basically de-industrialized, it's been at the expense of Americans. People losing their jobs, livelihoods, houses, etc. If what you are saying is indeed sincere, and I have no reason to doubt it, then I can't argue with much, if anything you said.

 

 

However, I am just curious since you acknowledge that in the past, you have been critical of the people you now seem to support, what has changed for you? Why this sense of urgency.... now? Don't get me wrong. Better late than never, right? But why wasn't saving American jobs a big deal to you in 2015, 2012, hell, 2009? Why was it that back then, it was something to joke about? People were just as affected then, as they are now. I know people can change their minds. Or, they have something happen where they rethink things, and that is cool. Seriously, I am not being flip here. But it just makes me curious why the change of heart, now? If it isn't supporting\defending Trump, what is it?

 

I ask that because I have seen and heard a lot from conservatives. Back when jobs started going overseas in the 1990s-2000s and people in the US really started losing their jobs in droves (indeed, I was one of them...several times. Lost a job with Honeywell, and later Motorola because those jobs went to Taiwan, so I know a little about being on that end), I remember how a lot of the talk at the time was "well, business has to do that to stay in business," When Walmarts and other big box stores just exploded across the country, driving smaller local shops out of business, the typical conservative would mumble something about the "market deciding" who stays in business. I remember when it first became covered by the news media, and when China really started selling products faster than US producers could, and started putting them out of business, conservatives shrugged their shoulders and blamed it on greedy US workers, and also that free enterprise is making China free, and we all wanted that. When auto workers and other production workers lost their jobs, all conservatives could do is harp on the fact that it was the unions fault, and that those production workers are just going to have to go back to school, and learn another trade. As if they had done something wrong for not having gone to school in the first place. Or how about all the businesses that hired undocumented workers, as the government turned a blind eye? A lot of conservatives called that savvy business, because we know how lazy American workers are, right?

 

I'm not getting on your case about this CM. If you have changed your mind, good. I am not going to knock you for wanting to see Americans retain their jobs. If you really don't believe a lot of the things you have said in the past anymore, or maybe just were trolling at the time, then cool. And you may have your own reasons that are different from most other conservatives. Good for you, and I don't mean that in an insulting or condescending way. I just find it interesting that a lot of people who are center left, not eve necessarily democrat, but people like me who are pretty centrist on most thing, leaning left on some issues, and right on others, have been saying things like you said for years, and were criticized by some of the same conservatives that are now sing Trump's praises for saying the same things they criticized just a year or two before.

 

You have to agree that it just smacks as a little too convenient (and hypocritical) that these conservatives who have this new-found support for keeping jobs in the US, were silent when it started, and the economy tanked back in 2008. I mean I get the whole ministry of truth thing. Yes (trade)war is peace. We've always been at war with Eurasia. But excuse me for calling BS on it all.

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I'd have trouble trying to the think of a reason why he wouldn't be. Not only for winning the presidency, but being emblematic of a global movement that is rocking the hell out of western democracies worldwide. Heck, I wouldn't blame them if they'd have given it to him if he'd lost the election.

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