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Where Do You Stand on Brexit?


60 replies to this topic

#1
Poe Dameron

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The people who want to stay seem to have bet the whole farm on economic reasons.  The leave side is more focused on national sovereignty and immigration.

 

Which side are you hoping to see win?  Which side would you endorse if you were a British voter?



#2
Kyrian

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I AM a British voter, and I'm voting remain because there is literally not a single coherent argument to Leave that doesn't involve "getting our country back" (from who, exactly?), immigration concerns (despite not a single study showing it to be a bad thing) or the economy not needing the EU (the EU is a political entity with sod-all to do with trade, and trading is organised through different organisations). Some have also spouted some rubbish about Belgian courts deciding our laws, which again is complete bollocks, and most of the truly progressive laws we have were driven by our EU membership, and the Tory leadership wants to rewrite our human rights charter to further benefit them and not the people it was written for - a charter we have again because of our EU membership.

 

As much as my country likes to pretend we're an island in the mid-Atlantic, we're not. We are a part of Europe whether we like it or not, and the EU has given us far more than it has taken, and will continue to do so. Every single argument for Leave stems from xenophobia and a misguided arrogance of our position in the world, and I'm not just saying that - most of the organisations for Leave are fringe groups like Britain First, the BNP, UKIP and politicians hated by those they were put in charge of (seriously, look up how badly teachers hate Michael Gove, and Iain Duncan Smith has always had a bad reputation) or regarded as lunatics (Boris Johnson needs no real introduction).

 

Plus, every expert who knows what they're talking about says Remain. That's good enough for me.



#3
Poe Dameron

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or the economy not needing the EU (the EU is a political entity with sod-all to do with trade, and trading is organised through different organisations)

 

If the EU has sod-all to do with trade, why has the Remain side put almost all their eggs in saying that leaving would be an economic catastrophe?



#4
Ms. Spam

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HAHA! I keep reading this thread on my phone and mistaking Brexit as Brazil and I'm all "HELL NO! Because I don't want the Zika virus but if I won a free trip to the Olympics I'd probably go."

 

I say don't leave the EU. You guys still have the pound instead of the euro and a cultural identity. Which I think is weird because I think it would have been cool if the Scots had broken away from the United Kingdom.



#5
Kyrian

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or the economy not needing the EU (the EU is a political entity with sod-all to do with trade, and trading is organised through different organisations)

 

If the EU has sod-all to do with trade, why has the Remain side put almost all their eggs in saying that leaving would be an economic catastrophe?

 

Because they don't really understand what our membership in the EU really entails, and keep mistaking the EU for the EEA (European Economic Area, which is open to members of the EU or European Fair Trading Association, the EFTA being non-EU members who can trade in the EU markets without being EU members). It's quite simply ignorance, both willful and woeful.

 

I probably over-exaggerated saying it's got sod-all to do with trade, but the fact remains that we'd still be able to trade without the EU, it would just be a bit more difficult, with more hoops to jump through. Membership in the EU streamlines things. The real point is, the referendum has basically just become a political football, with lots of idiots screaming as loudly as they can that we don't need the EU, that we'd be stronger without it, that they're dictating to us, etc, when the fact remains that the benefits of the EU far outweighs the negatives, and they're frankly only jumping on the bandwagon for the attention and political point scoring by saying what they think people want to hear.



#6
Poe Dameron

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Because they don't really understand what our membership in the EU really entails, and keep mistaking the EU for the EEA (European Economic Area, which is open to members of the EU or European Fair Trading Association, the EFTA being non-EU members who can trade in the EU markets without being EU members). It's quite simply ignorance, both willful and woeful.

 

But this is the argument from the experts that you backed in your first post.  It sounds like you believe that the economic arguments are overblown.  So, why not leave the EU if one believes they're exercising too much control?

 

Personally, I go a little deeper and believe that the nationalist fever sweeping through parts of Europe (and the United States, see Trump) is partially due to people feeling that they have no control over their government.  That bureaucrats and other unaccountable figures are making the rules and forcing them to live by them.  Immigration being high on the list of concerns.

 

Over time, I believe these stresses are only going to get worse and end up causing some bad endings in several nations.  I actually think a nation distancing itself from the EU now and giving back its citizens a feeling of directing their own destiny makes a lot of sense in keeping things normalized.

 

Not that either side is considering such a thing.  But I wouldn't blame any nation from disentangling themselves, even with a short-term economic hit, from the community.  Better to rip the band-aid off now.



#7
Kyrian

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I'm not sure I've put myself across as well as I wanted to. My main point is that, yes, there will be economic ramifications if we leave, that will suck, and that we are better off in the EU, but the economic arguments are just a smoke screen. Ultimately, it's becoming more of a political thing now, but both sides are using the economic argument and exaggerating things either way in their side's favour. I'm actually kind of sick of it, because it's all anyone is talking about, when there are more immediately important issues here that need addressing, like how the Tory government is tearing up the public sector and selling it off to their rich friends and ****ing over the people it's there to serve, and frankly if the result of this referendum (whatever it may be) results in another General Election so we can get rid of their particular brand of cronyist poison, then I'm not hugely bothered what the result is.

Having said that, as I said above, I think we're better off in the EU, and for more than just the economic reasons.

#8
Odine

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Im voting to remain. Mostly because no one has presented a coherent convincing argument to leave. Other than ..uhh "Lets take control back". But whatever "control" people think they will be gaining is an illusion anyway. Leaving the EU is not going to magically make national politics easier. I imagine there will still be the bureaucratic BS, it'll just be home grown instead.  Also no one advocating Brexit has come up with any viable strategies in the event of a Brexit. I've heard no talk about what kind of deals they'd be hoping to get with other trading partners or anything. I know its a complete uncharted territory but surely some one has a loose kind of game-plan? Why is there little to no press on it? We have a very confused and ill-informed voting base and I'm one of them. Basically its a vote to stay in a situation no one is happy with (the EU) and just trudge on with it, or take a flying leap into the unknown being led by a bunch of people I don't particularly like or trust. Id rather not take the gamble and stick with the **** situation I already have and know. 

 

In the event the UK stays in the EU, I wouldn't be surprised if in the near future (next 5-10 years) the idea is supposed an d put forward that european governments/nations  are not centralized enough.  That we are not unified enough. That leaving wasn't a solution at all, but we should solidify with our european sister-nations under a single governing body. It starts to sound like Alex Jones territory there, but It doesn't seem too far fetched at all IMO. 


Edited by Odine, 19 June 2016 - 03:08 PM.


#9
Poe Dameron

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In the event the UK stays in the EU, I wouldn't be surprised if in the near future (next 5-10 years) the idea is supposed an d put forward that european governments/nations  are not centralized enough.  That we are not unified enough. That leaving wasn't a solution at all, but we should solidify with our european sister-nations under a single governing body. It starts to sound like Alex Jones territory there, but It doesn't seem too far fetched at all IMO.

 

I think they've learned their lesson on that.  Not that they won't further centralize in the future, that much is inevitable from any power structure, but that they won't ask and they won't announce.  It'll be more of a continuous creeping action.

 

Also no one advocating Brexit has come up with any viable strategies in the event of a Brexit. I've heard no talk about what kind of deals they'd be hoping to get with other trading partners or anything. I know its a complete uncharted territory but surely some one has a loose kind of game-plan? Why is there little to no press on it? We have a very confused and ill-informed voting base and I'm one of them. Basically its a vote to stay in a situation no one is happy with (the EU) and just trudge on with it, or take a flying leap into the unknown being led by a bunch of people I don't particularly like or trust

 

Aye, it seems to me that the people in power rather uniformly want to stay, so they are refusing to even entertain or prepare for the eventuality.  A safe and orderly transition from one reality to the next could probably be put in place, but the powers-that-be prefer having the cudgel of chaos if this happens.  Everyone must stay in line.

 

I imagine that if the Conservatives had spent the last year getting ready for this, it would be a heck of a lot less of a leap into the dark.


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#10
Kyrian

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I imagine that if the Conservatives had spent the last year getting ready for this, it would be a heck of a lot less of a leap into the dark.

I seem to remember the Tories making it a promise during the last election that, if they were elected, they'd hold an EU referendum, so it's not like they haven't had time to prepare.



#11
Poe Dameron

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I recall that as well while watching election night coverage.  This vote is the result of a campaign promise, so it's not that they haven't had time to prepare.  They scheduled the vote themselves after all and could have put it off a bit longer if they thought they needed more time to put their ducks in a row.  It's really that they chose not to so that Leave would be a worse option.  Essentially, they attempted to sabotage the Leave campaign.

 

If Brexit is denied, it's winning through hardball politics.  If Brexit passes, then they were derelict in their duties.



#12
Kyrian

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If Brexit passes, then they were derelict in their duties.

They've been derelict either way. There was a "contract" with the public from the original election in 2010 (before the Con-Dem coalition) where they outlined their promises and demanded we kick them out in the next election if they didn't deliver. That document has mysteriously disappeared from all official sources, and includes things like cutting MPs wages by 5% (which they did, then promptly raised it by 11% later on the recommendation of an "independent" board), reducing emissions to make us greener (they've cut spending in green infrastructure and promoted fracking), increase spending on the NHS (they've instituted massive cuts and are running it into the ground so they can justify selling it off to their rich chums in the private sector), introduce National Service to all those over 16 (Eh?) and raising standards in schools (which they want to achieve by forcing every school in the country to become an academy, which are run by the private sector - notice a theme here?).

 

The only reason they included a Brexit referendum was because UKIP had suddenly become very popular, and they wanted the votes that UKIP could bring. It worked, and suddenly now they're facing a referendum they only agreed to in a desperate bid to keep power.



#13
D-Ray Kenobi

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Not really my situation to have a voice on, but I can't help but notice a similarity between Brexit proponents and Right Wing extremists here in the U.S.  They cry out for self-sustainability and autonomy from a larger umbrella structure, but still happily enjoy all of the entitlements and benefits granted by it.


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#14
Poe Dameron

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Not really my situation to have a voice on, but I can't help but notice a similarity between Brexit proponents and Right Wing extremists here in the U.S.  They cry out for self-sustainability and autonomy from a larger umbrella structure, but still happily enjoy all of the entitlements and benefits granted by it.

I'm not sure why either is an extremist position.  The United States has been a federalist government since its founding.  Or why Brexit, even with the possibility of losing some benefits, means that they're somehow being hypocritical.

 

They've been derelict either way.

 

Let's try to stay on target and not branch out to British domestic policy.



#15
Odine

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It's more like extremists also happen to be voting for the leave campaign. The BNP, EDL and other neo-nazi groups will all be voting leave, because they think EU freedom of movement won't exist for the UK if we do leave. However supporting the leave campaign obviously doesn't automatically make someone a nazi or a bigot. Outside of London id take a guess and say much of the country favors leaving for a variety of reasons, and not simply because they're xenophobic. I read an article saying that 95% of all UK fishermen want to vote out, because EU fishing laws make their livelihoods very difficult.

#16
Kyrian

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They've been derelict either way.

 

Let's try to stay on target and not branch out to British domestic policy.

 

Why not? It speaks to their motives either way, and as you pointed out earlier, if they've not prepared properly, then they made a promise they weren't really prepared for, which makes them derelict in their duty. If they're derelict there, they've been derelict elsewhere, and as someone having to live with in the country they're trying to destroy, it's very relevant, especially as pointing these things out also highlights their real priorities when it comes to the referendum.

 

Outside of London id take a guess and say much of the country favors leaving for a variety of reasons, and not simply because they're xenophobic.

I can't help but feel that it bears pointing out that a lot of inner city constituencies tend to vote Labour and a lot of rural constituencies tend to vote Conservative, which highlights the innate conservatism (as in right-wing leanings rather than the political party) of rural areas. Whilst the Tories are mostly pro-Remain, they lost a lot of voters to UKIP and I'd hazard a guess that most of those losses came from rural areas that are largely unaffected by immigration apart from isolated incidents and end up being influenced by right-wing mainstream media.



#17
Poe Dameron

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Why not?

 

Because it doesn't have much to do with the topic really.  It'd be like an American discussing the recent Iran treaty and pointing to Obama's urban development plans.  Yeah, it may be important to you, but we're not discussing how good the Conservatives are at running your country's domestic policy.  Especially when they're on the same side as you on this one.



#18
Kyrian

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It's entirely relevant, as it shows just how disillusioned this country is with their leadership, to the point where some might vote Leave simply because the government is campaigning to Remain. Were I voting purely on the basis of what I think of the government, I'd be voting Leave, but I'm not, I've actually looked at the arguments and not found Leave to be persuasive at all, but you can guarantee that there are people out there who won't have done that and will end up voting Leave because of their dislike for Cameron. It's also telling that both the Labour leadership and Conservative leadership are united in that they both think Remain is the better option, so I guess what it'll come down is, will people vote along with whatever party they support? Will they vote because of fears over non-existent immigration concerns? Will they vote to spite the leadership they hate so much? Or will they vote based on the evidence?

 

But what would I know, I only live here and will be directly affected by the result of tomorrow's referendum.



#19
Kyrian

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Well I think today has proved that, once again, British voters cannot be trusted to do what's best for the country.

I don't want to live on this planet any more.

#20
Poe Dameron

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Huh, they actually did it.  I figured the murder of Cox had dampened the resolve.

 

It will be interesting how this plays out now that the scary decision has been made, both within the UK and in the EU itself.  Whether this will cause a loosening or tightening of the reins.  From an American standpoint, our country should be jumping to help the UK right now for our own benefit if nothing else.  Unfortunately, our president doesn't seem to like Britain and will probably be a problem.

 

How quickly the exit happens from here might be important.  My understanding is that the vote didn't actually do anything, so there's still time for an orderly exit.



#21
Poe Dameron

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Well, Cameron is out.



#22
Tex

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Good for you, UK.  Now it's America's turn.



#23
Ms. Spam

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A few things I can think of is what happens to the ex-pats living in retirement in places like Spain? And trade pacts with places like Germany?



#24
D-Ray Kenobi

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Lose £'s overnight with this one trick the EU doesn't want you to know about! Economists hate him!


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#25
Odine

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Ahhh ****. I'm moving to Scotland. Little Britain has spoken. Bunch of idiots.

Good for you, UK. 


No it's not.



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