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Ben Solo's Fall to the Dark Side


Darth Wicket
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Plus I think that Reys vision of the Knights of Ren is when they attacked Lukes "school".

How would we know that? Luke tells the story in flashback? There's no flashbacks in star wars duh...

Although it wouldnt be the first convention they've broken with the freaking drone shot in 7

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Unfortunately, if a film needs extracurriclaur reading to help understand what's going on, the film has failed.

But you don't need extracurricular reading to explain anything. Trumpet is the one who said it's been 20 years. I didn't mention books or anything other media when explaining why I didn't think there was a chance it could be 20 years. Kylo Ren looks at most 30 years old in TFA. If it had been 20 years, that means that he would have been 10 years old when he turned to the darkside. Which doesn't seem likely.

 

The book gave it a much more precise time frame but I think we can deduce from the movie itself that it had been much less than 20 years. Probably 10-12 at most and we likely will be given more info to narrow it down in the next 2 movies.

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Unfortunately, if a film needs extracurriclaur reading to help understand what's going on, the film has failed.

 

But you don't need extracurricular reading to explain anything.
What was that planet that was blown up? What significance did it have to the ongoing conflict between these two (or three) factions? Factions which I couldn't tell what they represent. Is the First Order just a new name for the Empire? So the rebels didn't win the galaxy back after ROTJ and the Empire is still in charge then? Everyone in the film clearly acted like that was the case. But if so then why is the Republic back? And what is the Resistance's relationship in all this?
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Jesus. People posting infuriating questions as if movies that leave you asking questions is a bad thing. FILMS DONT HAVE TO EXPLAIN EVERYTHING.

 

I for one ****ing hate it when films explain away every last detail. Like you can't read into anything, or contemplate anything because you've been bashed over the head with endless exposition and dumming down by over explanation. The PT loved doing that.

 

Who cares about the specifics of the First Orders geopolitical position in the galaxy? Who cares about Han going back to smuggling seemingly out of character..(ironically that's exactly what his character would do being a scoundrel and all) Bad shit happens, and people react differently than you might expect..

Who cares about the exact nature of the resistance?

 

All these questions will probably be addressed in subsequent films.. All that is required is a little patience. But as far as I can tell they are pretty needless concerns. And come to think of it, I'm certain the geoplolitical status of the galaxy was described more than adequately in the opening crawl regardless.

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A part of me now wants Leia to have given birth to Ben between ANH and TESB just to mess with people and to show that things like Kylo's exact age and Han and Leia's parenting techniques aren't important and certainly don't require the movie to exposition it to us.

 

As far as the political status of the galaxy goes, I do think that matters more. It's important to know who's in charge, who's fighting who and why, who "the resistance" is resisting...etc. Everybody knows there was content there that got cut from the movie, and unfortunately that makes the movie less than 100% perfect. That was the trade-off for meeting a runtime requirement. That's what novelizations are for, to flesh out the details...but shouldn't be used as a crutch. Ultimately it's the movie that counts because Star Wars is a 'movies first' franchise.

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I'm going to pop on my EU hat and inform everyone that Leia is pregnant in Life Debt, which takes place less than a year after Endor. According to that book, she and Han got married the day after Death Star II blew up. So, if that child is in fact Ben and she didn't miscarry, Kylo Ren would be around 30 in TFA. Adam Driver is 32 right now.

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I have some problems with TFA, and the vagueness of these details is one of them-- but for a moment go back to ANH before anything else existed. You hear them yapping about The Senate, the Jedi, an Emperor-- etc. Part of the mystique of that lived-in universe wasn't just how dirty the props and sets were, it was that they didn't go into unrealistic exposition to explain every detail. Everyone in this world knew what these things were and rolled with it. There was enough info there to understand it.

 

While I think the Hosian system should have been Courescant to make it a little easier to grasp, I still knew what was going on. Between the crawl and Hux's speech, the info is there: The First Order is a fascist group patterned after the Empire with enough power to hold territory in the galaxy. The Resistance fights them in said territory while The Republic runs the rest of the galaxy. The Republic's seat is on Hosian Prime and they've been secretly funding the Resistance.

 

Simple is that.

 

My one big problem with TFA is JJ Abrams doesn't understand how big space is. Star Trek had the same problem. The fact they could look up in the sky and see the individual planets of the Hosian system go up annoys the crap out of me.

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Yeah, that's my main issue. There's no sense of space or time in the movie.

 

The politics of TFA are explained as much as they need to be to enjoy the movie. You want more? Read Bloodline. A book is much more conducive to exploring politics than a Star Wars movie is (see: the prequels).

 

 

Hux's speech for further explanation:

 

"Today is the end of the Republic. The end of a regime that acquiesces to disorder. At this very moment, in a system far from here, the New Republic lies to the galaxy while secretly supporting the treachery of the loathsome Resistance. This fierce machine that we have built, upon which we stand, will put an end to the Senate! To their cherished fleet! All remaining systems will bow to the First Order, and will remember this as the last day of the Republic!"

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Yeah but alot of that is just because it almost has to be. I had a friend who used to complain that like whatever planet they go to they end up basically in the right spot on said planet eventhough planets are so large. I just look at it like you have to pretend that each planet is a town or city or whatever rather than a planet. I think the same thing holds true here. Hosnian Prime being blown up is like if a town a few miles away got nuked, you'd probably see evidence of the explosion. Same thing applies to ESB when the Falcon travels to Bespin without lightspeed. Travelling at sublight speeds between star systems, even if Bespin was in the next system would take years, maybe even decades, lifetimes.

 

Also, the fact that those details aren't 100% clear isn't a bad thing. TFA is the story of Rey, Finn, Poe, Ren etc within this larger story. It's not really the story of the struggle between the Resistance, First Order, Republic. It's the story of the characters within that struggle. The OT is like that, think of how much happens during the timeframe of those movies that we don't see. Death Star plans are stolen, the Rebellion is forced to leave their base, they set up a new base, after that base they regroup again. We don't see any of this because we are seeing the most important moments during this whole timeframe for the characters that the story is about.

 

Even as a prequel fan that is a problem with the prequels. We are given too much screen time for stuff about the story as a whole rather than focusing on the main characters. We don't really need to see Palpy go from Senator to Chancellor. The opening crawl of TPM could have made him the newly elected Chancellor, or hell even 15 seconds of dialogue could have established it. We don't need to see a mystery about the clone army, could have just been there is Clone Army on standy somewhere that can be called up at any time.

 

Basically, to me, Star Wars shouldn't be about the whole galaxy wide conflict. It really should be about the 3 or 4 main characters stories against the backdrop of this galaxy wide conflict. That is how Star Wars works best and that is what TFA is.

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I would have liked the hosian system to.have been coruscant, just like I would have liked Jakku to be tatooine but what you gonna do.

 

I equally hate that they saw those five planets blowing up in the sky

 

My beef with TFA isnt about the vagueness, we have two more films for that. I have a problem with the shots. GL knew how to.frame a damn shot, say wtv you want about him.

 

All.we saw from The hosian system was the planets from far and then a tight shot of a bunch.of aristocrats on a balcony looking up at the red sky. You got no impression that a lot of people.just died. GL would have gone all Deep Impact on that shit. We would have seen mountains crumble and tsunamis and shit.

 

And don't get me started on all the Dutch angles for Kylo. I think the.composition of the shots went a long way to making the film seem vague

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Basically, to me, Star Wars shouldn't be about the whole galaxy wide conflict. It really should be about the 3 or 4 main characters stories against the backdrop of this galaxy wide conflict. That is how Star Wars works best and that is what TFA is.

Star wars to me is about one family screwing it up for the galaxy for three generations

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Yeah but alot of that is just because it almost has to be. I had a friend who used to complain that like whatever planet they go to they end up basically in the right spot on said planet eventhough planets are so large. I just look at it like you have to pretend that each planet is a town or city or whatever rather than a planet. I think the same thing holds true here. Hosnian Prime being blown up is like if a town a few miles away got nuked, you'd probably see evidence of the explosion. Same thing applies to ESB when the Falcon travels to Bespin without lightspeed. Travelling at sublight speeds between star systems, even if Bespin was in the next system would take years, maybe even decades, lifetimes.

 

Also, the fact that those details aren't 100% clear isn't a bad thing. TFA is the story of Rey, Finn, Poe, Ren etc within this larger story. It's not really the story of the struggle between the Resistance, First Order, Republic. It's the story of the characters within that struggle. The OT is like that, think of how much happens during the timeframe of those movies that we don't see. Death Star plans are stolen, the Rebellion is forced to leave their base, they set up a new base, after that base they regroup again. We don't see any of this because we are seeing the most important moments during this whole timeframe for the characters that the story is about.

 

Even as a prequel fan that is a problem with the prequels. We are given too much screen time for stuff about the story as a whole rather than focusing on the main characters. We don't really need to see Palpy go from Senator to Chancellor. The opening crawl of TPM could have made him the newly elected Chancellor, or hell even 15 seconds of dialogue could have established it. We don't need to see a mystery about the clone army, could have just been there is Clone Army on standy somewhere that can be called up at any time.

 

Basically, to me, Star Wars shouldn't be about the whole galaxy wide conflict. It really should be about the 3 or 4 main characters stories against the backdrop of this galaxy wide conflict. That is how Star Wars works best and that is what TFA is.

Early SW drafts from the 70s had it taking place in one solar system. I think that could have been pretty cool actually. You add hyperspace or warp speed to something and it all becomes relative when in reality, even our solar system is insanely big. The Expanse is one of the first sci-fi properties I've seen that really takes this into consideration.

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Jesus. People posting infuriating questions as if movies that leave you asking questions is a bad thing. FILMS DONT HAVE TO EXPLAIN EVERYTHING.

 

I for one ****ing hate it when films explain away every last detail. Like you can't read into anything, or contemplate anything because you've been bashed over the head with endless exposition and dumming down by over explanation. The PT loved doing that.

This, I believe is what hurt TFA. Abrams was so busy trying to make the Star Wars film "people wanted" that he ended up remaking ANH while at the same time trying to squeeze the start of a new story into it. He said all the right things before the film was released. "We are going to limit CGI and use practical effects." "We are going to use real locations." All this stuff was music to SW fans' ears. Unfortunately, in his quest to make the anti-PT he played it too close to the vest, so much so that I believe Gareth Edwards was talking about this when he mentioned his mindset when making Rogue One:

 

"The pressure's so high, we're making a film that's touching my favorite movie of all time. But then if you're too respectful of it, that you don't do anything new or different, or take a risk, then what are you bringing to the table?"

 

People will say I'm reading too much into that quote. Well, PT bashers said Von Sydow's opening line about making things right was a shot at Lucas, so there.

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To be fair I think Abrams and Edwards had very different jobs. Abrams was to restart Star Wars. No matter what your opinion of the prequels are, the overall public's opinion is low compared to the OT. Disney spent a ton of money on Lucasfilm and if the first movie didn't do well or wasn't received well it could poison the well for all future Star Wars movies and severely compromise the whole deal for Disney. Now just like I said no matter what your opinion of the PT is, no matter what your opinion of TFA is the movie is very, very well liked overall. Abrams took a very familiar path and story and inserted new characters into it. The main job of the first movie in a trilogy is make us like the characters. Job well done. Abrams had to do something "safe" because of the risk involved if it failed.

 

Edwards job is totally different. Star Wars right now is back in the "good graces" of the public. He has to show that they can make these spinoff movies and they can be good and be different than the Episodes. Basically he has to show "hey we can make a Star Wars movie that isn't really about Jedi and Sith or dark side. We can make a very different kind of movie, set it in this universe and have it be good." He should be taking risks to show that Star Wars can exist outside of a chronological story. He needs to pave the way for the spinoffs.

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And don't get me started on all the Dutch angles for Kylo. I think the.composition of the shots went a long way to making the film seem vague

Battlefield Earth had lots of Dutch angles and that movie was GREAAAAT

 

My VHS recorded childhood soccer games had lots of Dutch angles too

 

Actually I don't know if not knowing how to properly hold a camera straight inn the first place qualifies

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