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that gorilla that got shot


Pong Messiah
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Guest El Chalupacabra

everybodys talking about how horrible it is that they killed that gorilla

 

i agree but understand why it had to be done and think people who are second guessing the decision from behind their computer screens need to be locked in a cage with a gorilla and see what happens after it gets shot with a tranquilzer

 

but really wtf were those parents so busy with that they let a preschool age kid climb into the cage thats what gets me jesus christ

It is tragic for sure, but had to be done. When it comes down to a child's life and an animal, no matter how magnificent, the child's life has to take precedence. But I also wonder the same thing. I don't think we are ever going to really know what exactly happened, because kids do get away from their parents. I live in a town with a lot of pools, where anyone who can afford one has one. And even good parents that do everything right sometimes lose track of their child, who falls and drowns in the pool. Sort of the same thing, here.

 

That said, I think the parents should be held responsible, somehow. I don't know that criminal charges would solve anything, but maybe holding them civilly liable, where they have to pay a fine, or help pay the cost of replacing the gorilla, or some other form of monetary compensation WOULD be appropriate.

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I get anxiety attacks if we do a field trip where I run through all the potential bad things that can happen. I've never had anything terrible happen but I still want all the kids to arrive back at the school that left on the bus in the morning.

 

In this vein, the mother apparently works with pre-schoolers and she was distracted by other kids. You commented above about the woman having more kids than she can handle, but it's not clear whether they're her kids or if she was watching a group from work along with her own.

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But that's why I freak out. We went to the zoo this year for our field trip at school and I try to get as much mothers, grandmothers or fathers to come so I can have help keeping up with my students. I'm in charge of 23 kids and they're older than a four year old toddler. I know it's more kids than I can handle in a public place with so many hiding places and distractions. This is why it is so bad for both parties because, jeez, I can't even imagine thinking "Wow, I just turned my back for a second!" Mothers of kids who drown in pools probably think this too.

 

The other two gorilla's followed their keepers commands to go back inside their indoor cages but this one male gorilla did not. The zoo made a choice.

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3- and 4-year olds are like little ninjas. I'm kind of surprised my daughter hasn't made national headlines. That said, when we go to our local zoo, I can't think of a single exhibit that she would be able to sneak into. They need to reinforce whatever flaw that kid found immediately.

 

As a parent, you're dammed if you do and dammed if you don't. You feel constantly judged for your every move out in public. You've got a kid who's a runner? Put a backpack leash on them and at least 50% of the people you see that day are going to think you're an asshole. My daughter ran out in the street precisely once and then it was leash time until she learned how to hold hands properly.

 

I don't take my kids to fancy restaurant, we mostly do kid-friendly stuff. Like, you know, the zoo.

 

What kills me is we've got 15 eye witnesses and not a single one jumped in to help the kids parents out. They probably didn't think the kid was going to hop in there, either, but I don't think anyone who saw what happened has any business criticizing the parents. Anyone who has more than one kid has been in this mom's shoes. The best time for one of your kids to get in trouble is when the other one is throwing a fit.

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Guest El Chalupacabra

What kills me is we've got 15 eye witnesses and not a single one jumped in to help the kids parents out. They probably didn't think the kid was going to hop in there, either, but I don't think anyone who saw what happened has any business criticizing the parents. Anyone who has more than one kid has been in this mom's shoes. The best time for one of your kids to get in trouble is when the other one is throwing a fit.

Is it any wonder why no one else got involved? We live in a society where if you have kids running amok, and you are a complete stranger, if you say anything to the parents, let alone the kid, you get the stink eye. People don't want to deal with a crazy parent ready to flip out, if anyone says anything to them about their hellion kids. People are pretty much trained to ignore misbehaving kids, so it doesn't surprise me one bit that no one else noticed what that kid was doing. Bottom line is, we don't know anything about these parents, so I am not prepared to lay blame on them, because these things do happen. But at the end of the day, it was the parents' responsibility to watch their kid. That is why I don't think the parents should be charged with any child endangerment, neglect, or anything like that, but I think there might be justification to fine them, or make them reimburse the zoo somehow. How much that should be, I have no idea. I haven't been in the gorilla market for some time now! :D

 

And as for jumping into a pit with a gorilla to save the kid? Sh*t man nobody should be doing that, unless they are professional animal handlers. Average people visiting the zoo have no business doing that, even the parents. Something like that could have gone even worse than what occurred. The gorilla could easily been threatened by that, and killed not just the 4 year old, but the would be rescuer, too.

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kid said he was getting in the water with the gorilla

Yeah, because we all know how reliable 4 year olds are at executing their ideas.

 

It's always non-parents who turn into Judgy McJudgester Pants when something like this happens.

 

Your comment is moving the needle toward the red zone on the BS meter --everyone was a child once, and knows how impulsive a child can be, where anything thought "must" happen. You do not need to be a parent to make that judgement.

 

Some parents are irresponsible, and do not watch their children (or think yelling at them--while looking elsewhere is parenting). Its easy to screw like a squirrel in Springtime and pop them out, but being a parent means paying attention.

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What kills me is we've got 15 eye witnesses and not a single one jumped in to help the kids parents out

 

Well, one of the witnesses (the same one that claims the kid said he wanted to go in) said she tried to grab the kid, but was too late.

 

Once the kid's in with the gorillas, nobody should have helped except professionals. Matter of fact, they're all jerks for not walking away and instead making the situation more dangerous by their obvious agitation, which trickled down into the gorilla himself.

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kid said he was getting in the water with the gorilla

Yeah, because we all know how reliable 4 year olds are at executing their ideas.

 

It's always non-parents who turn into Judgy McJudgester Pants when something like this happens.

 

Your comment is moving the needle toward the red zone on the BS meter --everyone was a child once, and knows how impulsive a child can be, where anything thought "must" happen. You do not need to be a parent to make that judgement.

 

Some parents are irresponsible, and do not watch their children (or think yelling at them--while looking elsewhere is parenting). Its easy to screw like a squirrel in Springtime and pop them out, but being a parent means paying attention.

 

You cannot keep your eyes on a child every second of every day. It's literally impossible.

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So today we have learned that Justus was a child with absolutely no impulse control at all, and has never been around other children.

 

Tell me, did you also wet the bed? Start fires?

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So today we have learned that Justus was a child with absolutely no impulse control at all, and has never been around other children.

 

Tell me, did you also wet the bed? Start fires?

Only someone who has been around children know they often do whatever comes to mind. I know some think kids are essentially something to have and ego stroke about, but they are are thinking people and need to be watched. The first sign of an ireesonsible parent is one already making excuses that "i cannot watch them every minute," or "how was i supposed to know he would do that?"

 

Oh, and Fozzie, aside from tossing your own crap at other kids like a monkey, what else did you do as a child?

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I always thought Justus just sort of took on human adult form as he was programmed too.

Ah,I see Captain Obsessive has trolled the discussion. Shouldn't you be ranting about how you're the only one knowing what "good" Star Wars is about? Or are you saving those 170 pages for the next Rogue One trailer?

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Guest El Chalupacabra

How was a child so young able to gain access to the enclosure? Seems there's at least some negligence on the zoo's part as well.

See, that I DON'T buy. Why is it every time someone gets hurt there is a knee jerk reaction that the institution the injury took place is automatically at fault? Sure, sometimes that is the case, but I don't think so here. The Cincinnati Zoo has been in operation since 1875. In all that time, exactly how many 4 year olds have fallen into gorilla pits? I do believe this is the first time.

 

This incident was a freak accident, and I don't see how in this particular case, the zoo has any liability. I don't like using the word blame in this case, because I don't think the parents area fault per se, because this was an accident. But, they are responsible to a degree for what happened as a result for their child did, and for the gorilla being killed to save that child (again not criminally, just liable in the respect that all parents are responsible for what their children do). Really, the only thing that can be said about this incident is it is a tragedy for the zoo, the gorilla, as well as the child, who will probably have some sort of trauma to deal with for a long time.

 

And I am saying this as someone who isn't a fan of old style zoo's like this one. I am not a PETA type of guy, but I do love animals and I have always been fascinated by apes. I wouldn't say they are sentient by human standards, but they are self aware, have the same basic emotions as humans, and are intelligent enough to know that zoos like the Cincinnati Zoo are no place to be. The local zoo in my town used to have gorillas in a similar pit style exhibit, and I remember as a child seeing them, and even at that young age, I could tell they were depressed as f*ck.

 

So no, I am not a fan of the exhibit style, and I do think zoos should redesign the exhibits so that animals can be more comfortable, and in more of a wildlife preserve type of setting. But when it comes to this specific case, I don't see any fault on the part of the Zoo. The gorillas were in a pit, with a railing high above to prevent ape-human contact. Such a design successfully prevented countless children, hell even adults, from falling in there, until this one freak accident. Bottom line, I think the zoo did everything that could be reasonably expected to try to prevent a situation like this, and even when it did happen, they took steps to save the child's life. So really, given their track record, and the actions they took to save a human life, the zoo should be praised, not criticized in this case.

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People blaming institutions is part of the super litigious and sue-happy nature of the US.

 

You just don't see it in other countries. I was kind of shocked when I was London to notice how as far as safety goes the general assumption is you aren't an idiot.

 

Passing a construction zone I noticed a sign that said falling debris was possible. In America they'd have at least four signs up indemnifying themselves from wrong doing, miles of caution tape, a flagger, and if somebody walked through it all and got hurt they'd still sue.

 

We invented suing over getting burnt by hot coffe because the hot coffee we bought couldn't possibly be hot.

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Guest El Chalupacabra

People blaming institutions is part of the super litigious and sue-happy nature of the US.

 

You just don't see it in other countries. I was kind of shocked when I was London to notice how as far as safety goes the general assumption is you aren't an idiot.

 

Passing a construction zone I noticed a sign that said falling debris was possible. In America they'd have at least four signs up indemnifying themselves from wrong doing, miles of caution tape, a flagger, and if somebody walked through it all and got hurt they'd still sue.

 

We invented suing over getting burnt by hot coffe because the hot coffee we bought couldn't possibly be hot.

Well that is true, and I agree with you 100%. if the parents of the 4 year old end up suing the Cincinnati Zoo, I won't be surprised at all. I actually kind of expect it, once the media blitz dies down.

 

But what I was getting at is even people who aren't involved with this story, and are just making general observations, come to the conclusion that the zoo "has" to be at fault. Like the post Kurgan (sorry man, not calling you out, just using this as an example), or others before him, or even the talking heads on CNN and MSNBC jabber about: "the Zoo must be held accountable." The thing is, by any other standard if a freak accident only happens once in 141 years, that is a pretty good f*cking track record, if you ask me.

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I don't think they should be sued, but I do think they need to take steps to figure out how to prevent it from happening again. Was it that a small child was able to fit through a small space? Does something need repaired? I don't think that is unreasonable to expect them to evaluate that and see if there really is a design flaw or if there's a basic easy fix.

 

 

Not sure if a response to Justus is even reasonable. If you have multiple kids, there's going to be moments where you can't watch both. But even at home, sometimes I have to do things like go to the bathroom, fold laundry, etc. There's watching your kids and then there is helicoptering to the point of neurosis. When I'm at home with the kids and they're bouncing off the walls, we go do something, within reason. Go to a park, the zoo, etc. You do have to know your limits. I don't take them both swimming by myself, even at my mother-in-law's house. That's too dangerous of a situation. But I don't think taking your kids to the zoo is beyond most people's abilities most of the time. But accidents and mishaps happen, and you will have to divide your attention.

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Guest El Chalupacabra

I don't think they should be sued, but I do think they need to take steps to figure out how to prevent it from happening again. Was it that a small child was able to fit through a small space? Does something need repaired? I don't think that is unreasonable to expect them to evaluate that and see if there really is a design flaw or if there's a basic easy fix.

Now that there has been a flaw that has been discovered (obviously there was, otherwise the child wouldn't have fallen, right?), sure I think that is a totally reasonable thing to ask the zoo to do. Maybe put some additional screening to prevent small kids getting through where this one did, or some other appropriate measures to make things safer. Chances are, they are already all over that, and are making it happen.

 

But I still say the zoo did everything that could reasonably be expected of them to do. Saying the Zoo is at fault like what some critics have said, and should be held liable, is totally wrong in my view.

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I think the blame lies where no one has the guts to lay it.

 

It's the kid's fault.

 

This kid is an idiot.

 

My kid was 3 the first time he went to a zoo, and he loved the monkeys. I asked if he wanted to go play with them and he said "nope. they're too big."

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I don't think they should be sued, but I do think they need to take steps to figure out how to prevent it from happening again. Was it that a small child was able to fit through a small space? Does something need repaired? I don't think that is unreasonable to expect them to evaluate that and see if there really is a design flaw or if there's a basic easy fix.

Now that there has been a flaw that has been discovered (obviously there was, otherwise the child wouldn't have fallen, right?), sure I think that is a totally reasonable thing to ask the zoo to do. Maybe put some additional screening to prevent small kids getting through where this one did, or some other appropriate measures to make things safer. Chances are, they are already all over that, and are making it happen.

 

But I still say the zoo did everything that could reasonably be expected of them to do. Saying the Zoo is at fault like what some critics have said, and should be held liable, is totally wrong in my view.

Are you sure that they did everything right? Are you familiar with zoo design? Have you inspected the scene? Interviewed witnesses? Just curious what you are basing your idea on.

 

If everything was functioning properly, you are probably right. But what if something wasn't? Especially if the zoo reasonably should have known that something was broken?

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What kills me is we've got 15 eye witnesses and not a single one jumped in to help the kids parents out. They probably didn't think the kid was going to hop in there, either, but I don't think anyone who saw what happened has any business criticizing the parents. Anyone who has more than one kid has been in this mom's shoes. The best time for one of your kids to get in trouble is when the other one is throwing a fit.

Is it any wonder why no one else got involved? We live in a society where if you have kids running amok, and you are a complete stranger, if you say anything to the parents, let alone the kid, you get the stink eye. People don't want to deal with a crazy parent ready to flip out, if anyone says anything to them about their hellion kids. People are pretty much trained to ignore misbehaving kids, so it doesn't surprise me one bit that no one else noticed what that kid was doing.

 

 

This 100%. I was an event security guard once upon a time, and I'm still pretty observant in public places and ready to pounce if I see a kid misbehaving/putting themselves in danger. And I've basically had to re-train myself to NOT pounce. Parents HATE it when you step in to help with their kids or let the parent know they're misbehaving. Hell, they hated it when I was a security guard, and in uniform, and it was my job to do it.

 

With all the Stranger Danger training kids get I also have to gauge how scary it would be for the kid for a strange woman to intervene vs. how south the situation can turn if the kid continues what they're doing. And when I do decide to step in, I've found kids won't mind a stranger. They usually give you THAT look and do whatever they were doing more enthusiastically.

 

Plus, other people's kids aren't my responsibility. I would have been there with my own people having a good time, I'm not there to babysit for strangers. As observant as I am, would I have been paying attention to the kid, even if I was standing right next to him? Depends on how loud and obnoxious he was, and how focused I would have been on the gorillas and the people I was there with. If he was a little ninja, I probably would have been confused when people started screaming.

 

I'd like to think that I would have stepped in and done something had I been there, but honestly, I probably wouldn't have realized I had to until it was too late.

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Guest El Chalupacabra

 

 

I don't think they should be sued, but I do think they need to take steps to figure out how to prevent it from happening again. Was it that a small child was able to fit through a small space? Does something need repaired? I don't think that is unreasonable to expect them to evaluate that and see if there really is a design flaw or if there's a basic easy fix.

Now that there has been a flaw that has been discovered (obviously there was, otherwise the child wouldn't have fallen, right?), sure I think that is a totally reasonable thing to ask the zoo to do. Maybe put some additional screening to prevent small kids getting through where this one did, or some other appropriate measures to make things safer. Chances are, they are already all over that, and are making it happen.

 

But I still say the zoo did everything that could reasonably be expected of them to do. Saying the Zoo is at fault like what some critics have said, and should be held liable, is totally wrong in my view.

Are you sure that they did everything right? Are you familiar with zoo design? Have you inspected the scene? Interviewed witnesses? Just curious what you are basing your idea on.

 

If everything was functioning properly, you are probably right. But what if something wasn't? Especially if the zoo reasonably should have known that something was broken?

 

 

Have you?

 

I am not necessarily familiar with zoo designs, but I have studied museum exhibit designs, earned a graduate certificate in museum studies, interned and volunteered at several museums, and I generally understand the struggles museums, and organizations like museums (IE zoos) face when balancing visitor safety, with the overall visitor experience. So, I think I can safely say I'm not just pulling this out of my ass. But I would concede I may have a bit of a bias in favor of the zoo, because I know how some visitors can be.

 

My opinion is based on photos and videos I have seen online. But it is just that. My opinion. To me, I think a reasonable effort was made to prevent someone jumping in the gorilla pit. A reasonable person would look at the barriers in place and would not try to overcome them, and would prevent their kids from doing so. A zoo can only do the best they can. Maybe there is room for improvement, but a reasonable effort doesn't necessarily mean impossible to defeat. It means the Zoo did everything within reason to try to prevent it. Add the fact that I am sure this wasn't the first case where visiting parents had their hands full visited the same exhibit in the years this one was in operation, but it is the only known time this sort of thing happened. It was a freak accident.

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