Ghostbusters

[Iceheart]

Good grief. If anything, this discussion has highlighted that actual feminists have a VERY different view of what feminism is than people who aren't feminists.

 

Re: the promised sequel, they said the same thing about the Mortal Instruments movie (probably thinking it was a sure bet because Twilight, despite that when it was released, everyone was very over Twilight), and nixed it VERY quickly when the movie tanked... although, the Shadowhunters tv show happened.

 

As much as I want it, I can't see a Ghostbusters sequel. I would be okay with a spin-off tv show, though.

[Poe Dameron]

 

 

Was the male mayor supposed to be bumbling? I just thought he was a politician.

 

Regardless of how you want to describe him, it would just be following the original movie's recipe and, arguably, its most famous scene (check it out, they're questioning the secondary villain's manhood) either way.

[Mara Jade Skywalker]

I've seen the original Ghostbusters, thanks. The new mayor isn't really like the original one, and they never question anyone's manhood, not even the villain. (Not surprising that it's Venkman who makes the dickless remark, after he proceeds to harass Dana the entire movie.)

[Guest]

I assumed that Poe's comment was more an agreement with your statement.

 

Ghostbusters has always included bumbling/incompetent/jealous public servants.

[Iceheart]

and they never question anyone's manhood, not even the villain. (Not surprising that it's Venkman who makes the dickless remark, after he proceeds to harass Dana the entire movie.)

 

This is a very good point, considering the discussion. If I remember correctly, it was another man (his fellow employee at the hotel) who called Rowan a "virgin" in GB2016. The "feminists" are the ones treating men with respect here, even as they aren't treated with respect.

 

Helpful hint - fighting "toxic masculinity" and making life more fair for all men is actually a top concern of the feminist movement.

[Mara Jade Skywalker]

I assumed that Poe's comment was more an agreement with your statement.

 

Ghostbusters has always included bumbling/incompetent/jealous public servants.

If so, I stand corrected.

[CoLA]

 

I'm curious, and not nitpicking - why do you think this movie was over-politicized?

In fact they made Thor worse than Janine Melnitz. Janine could answer a phone ffs.

 

Janine had a backbone, too! Always liked her response to Venkman's reply about how she could always get a job somewhere else ("I've quit better jobs than this...Ghostbusters, whattaya want?!").

[3 & 6 years to go...]

Every time that I see, or hear, 'Think about it' I think of Falling Down.

[The Kurgan]

 

I tend to think the truth is that it became the source of defensiveness for the movie more than the real reason anyone had a problem. Any cast that wasn't the original was going to be greeted with skepticism. It just so happened that since this cast became this weird social issue where you needed to take a side. Not because of the haters, but because of the defenders cherry-picking a few off-color remarks and painting everyone with the broad brush.

Yeah, no-- it was NOT a few off-color remarks. It was a very large, very vocal, very unstable faction of male fandom. The same type of dudes who are behind gamer gate. People involved in the movie were driven off of social media by an endless barrage. That's not a few outlier voices.

 

What Driver said here is more true than false. While the scope of the backlash was more nuanced than simply "ebul Hitler Muhsogyny", to deny that flagrant sexism was a sizable factor in the knee-jerk reactions to this movie is intellectual dishonesty. Simple as that.

 

Having said that, I don't think that simply shoe-horning female leads into reboots of previously male-led films - produced, directed and written by men 9 times out of 10 - and using the social justice angle as a marketing gimmick is a good way to go about correcting gender inequality in film. How about more female writers, female producers and female directors creating their own film that tells their own stories. Seems to me as though we could kill two birds with one stone here: increased gender equality AND an injection of new ideas into a movie industry suffering from very obvious creative exhaustion.

 

On a side note, turns out a sequel might not happen.

 

Helpful hint - fighting "toxic masculinity" and making life more fair for all men is actually a top concern of the feminist movement.

One wonders: was fighting "toxic paganism" in order to save indigenous peoples from sin and damnation a top concern of the conquistadors and missionaries of history as well? And how do the Christian churches look coming out of this today? How about a helpful hint in turn: your religion and your culture for you, my religion and my culture for me. Nothing against your feminism per-se, but I don't actually need being saved from my "toxic" masculinity by feminist missionaries who think they know what's best for everybody any more than the natives ever needed Christian missionaries to "save" them by converting them to the one true faith. People can, and should, solve their own problems. Collective resentments - like those expressed online about the trailers to this film - stem from collective failures to recognize this.

[Iceheart]

You really want to go there with a trained anthropologist and practicing witch?

 

So. You're totally cool with guys like Rowan who don't conform to society's standard of what it is to be a "real man" and is therefore so bullied and ostracized by his peers and society in general that he raises an army of ghosts and commits suicide to join them?

 

You're cool with the majority of male survivors of sexual violence not coming forward and getting the help they need because it's too shameful to be a male victim?

 

You're cool with the rate of LGBTQIA+ youth homelessness and suicide?

 

You're cool with the thought that if your wife/sister/daughter/niece is sexually assaulted that it's highly probable they will be shamed and blamed for the assault because men are such animals that they can't be blamed for their actions around women? You're cool being considered nothing more than an animal driven by primal urges?

 

You're cool with how guys can't have close guy friends without a obviously stated "no homo" stipulation, or everyone will assume they're a closeted gay couple? With being teased when you publicly emote about how important that friend is to you?

 

Let's flip your argument. Feminists aren't trying to "save" men from their "heathen" ways. But we women and non-conformists sure have been living under your "one true faith" of "true masculinity" for a very long time. This isn't some colonizing, ethnocentric takeover of a native belief system, this is pointing out that fairness seems to only favor men who tow the party line of "true masculinity."

 

"Toxic masculinity" doesn't mean "being a man." It means the societal constructs that have transformed the idea of masculinity into something that only serves those who operate within it's strict confines, and ostracizes and punishes anyone who doesn't.

 

Feel free to keep your "faith." But understand that your belief system has been imposing on mine and others'. If you don't like being imposed on, and it's pretty clear you don't, maybe think about how we feel.

 

So. If people can and should solve their own problems, what is your faction doing about all of this?

[Cerina]

kurgan hates women. It's been well established. He's sorta so anti-SJW that's he's kinda pro-marginalization.

[Iceheart]

I don't even know why I bothered to respond, but there it is.

[The Kurgan]

Ha ha! Whatever you have to tell yourselves, sisters.

 

I have no faith of "true masculinity." I have no faiths at all. I have less use for machismo than you do. Men can and should solve their own problems. For the most part, this does consist of getting our own houses in order and leaving others alone, if more cordial coexistence isn't possible. That's what I'm saying. If we were to do this, many of these problems would take care of themselves.

 

As to whether or not I "hate women", I'll let the many women with whom I have real relationships of all kinds decide that. The opinions of self righteous internet feminists who construe all disagreement with them as being "pro marginalization" are of less than no value to me. As it is, I have known many people of differing ideological and religious views, and none of whom have construed my rejection of their views as despite for them or the groups they belong to on a more personal level ... except feminists. Remarkable.

[Mara Jade Skywalker]

Well this has been a fun turn in the thread.

 

Can't wait to listen to everyone complain about shoehorning women into Oceans 8, aka the remake of a classic that should never be remade.

[Iceheart]

I have no faith of "true masculinity." I have no faiths at all. I have less use for machismo than you do. Men can and should solve their own problems. For the most part, this does consist of getting our own houses in order and leaving others alone, if more cordial coexistence isn't possible. That's what I'm saying. If we were to do this, many of these problems would take care of themselves.

 

You're the one who started the religion metaphor, not me. Also, how does it feel to be painted with broad strokes simply because of a stereotype? Feminists don't like being called self-righteous, unwavering misandrists, either.

 

Believe it or not, I basically agree with you - men being good-hearted, honest, and respectful and raising their sons, nephews, and grandsons to be such as well is the answer I would apply to the problem.

 

The criticism I would apply to your plan is that if you keep to yourself and let others do what they will without informing them them through words, actions, and example that it's wrong, how will they know it's wrong? Think about how a meme goes viral. Would any of us have seen the TroLoLo Guy if whoever stumbled upon the footage had a good chuckle and relegated it to their hard drive without showing it to another person or putting it into a shareable format?

 

The other criticism is that men don't exist in a vacuum. If you have a grandmother, mother, sister, aunt, wife, daughter, niece, granddaughter who are living in the house you are putting in order... you do have to let them into the conversation and listen to what they have to say, because they are being affected by it. The solution has to work for everyone involved. If the women in your life are telling you that they're hurting, you have to listen, believe, and do what you can to alleviate the cause. Men should solve their own problems, but if you don't know exactly what the problem is, how can you do that?

[Iceheart]

 

Can't wait to listen to everyone complain about shoehorning women into Oceans 8, aka the remake of a classic that should never be remade.

 

Well, I'm all in, but we all know I'm a manhating bitch who wants to see all of Hollywood coated in period blood and every childhood completely ruined, so.

[Cerina]

Come on sisters, let's leave this man alone so he can get his house in order and continue to improve upon the lives of his lady-friends.

Well this has been a fun turn in the thread.

 

Can't wait to listen to everyone complain about shoehorning women into Oceans 8, aka the remake of a classic that should never be remade.

Again. Remade again.

[Driver]

 

Can't wait to listen to everyone complain about shoehorning women into Oceans 8, aka the remake of a classic that should never be remade.

Well, I'm all in, but we all know I'm a manhating bitch who wants to see all of Hollywood coated in period blood and every childhood completely ruined, so.

 

I'm working on it

[The Choc]

What are the women stealing in the Oceans remake? like handbags or something?

[Driver]

tampons. duh.

[Cerina]

Their husband's souls?

[Driver]

no wait--

 

they are stealing mens BALLS and putting them in the handbags

[Iceheart]

 

 

Can't wait to listen to everyone complain about shoehorning women into Oceans 8, aka the remake of a classic that should never be remade.

Well, I'm all in, but we all know I'm a manhating bitch who wants to see all of Hollywood coated in period blood and every childhood completely ruined, so.

I'm working on it

Leatherface is a woman under the skin mask, right?

 

CHILDHOOD RUINER.

[Mara Jade Skywalker]

Come on sisters, let's leave this man alone so he can get his house in order and continue to improve upon the lives of his lady-friends.

Well this has been a fun turn in the thread.

 

Can't wait to listen to everyone complain about shoehorning women into Oceans 8, aka the remake of a classic that should never be remade.

Again. Remade again.

 

That's the joke.

[DANA-kin Skywalker]

I really don't understand the "childhood ruination" thingy. I mean, I WAS a child, and now I'm an adult (some of the time). The stuff I enjoyed way back then STILL happened. They didn't send a T-1000 back in time and prevent the original from ever existing, I can still watch the original whenever I want. Can someone explain this viewpoint to me? And if you can't, how about telling me if you liked this movie or not?