Jump to content

What if I don't want to go back to the 50s?


Recommended Posts

Question for you, Poe...

 

apologies if this is little garbled..I've had a few beers, and Im not the greatest at organising my thoughts at the best of times...

 

You say transgender people are pretending to be something they are not. Because their biology at birth negates or overrides any psychological or sociological feelings/identity that would contradict what their genitalia represent. I am legitimately not trying to be a seal clapper here...but isn't it just the lack of wholesale acceptance of transgendered identity the only thing that invalidates transgender identity? Regardless of what does or does not dangle between ones legs?

 

I say this because I am familiar with a culture who wholesale accept transgender identity. This is common practice in the Samoan community. (I know this because I grew up in Auckland New Zealand where there is a huge Samoan population, and NZ is pretty close to Samoa itself). If I'm not mistaken ( and I may be, but Im sure I have the right of it... any Samoans feel free to correct me..) if a family in Samoa have many sons, the youngest boy of the family is often raised as a girl and is in fact accepted as a third gender called fa'afafine, who embodies both the masculine and the feminine. However, they are often flamboyantly feminine "camp" (if you prefer the derogatory), and play an integral role in Samoan family life and society. Many fa'afafine in New Zealand and Australia transition with gender reassignment surgery.. but due to a lack of acceptance in western society wind up in the sex trade, being refused work in other industries, and discriminated against. However, it is only when Fa'afafine leave Samoa that they face resistance or non acceptance for what they are. Men who are women.

 

Is this example of biology-defying gender identity that is accepted wholesale by an entire society not evidence enough to suggest that gender is more than whether you got a nut-sack or not?

 

I mean.. I don't mean to parrot.. or trample your "rights", and Im not calling you evil Hitler. Im not a social justice warrior. But you should enter the 21st century.. the Samoans have been ahead of you in this regard for hundreds of years.

Edited by Odine
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 190
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Posts

The Crying Game

Yes, a transwoman's gender will differ from her genetic sex and vice versa.  But... who cares?   I guess that's what I will never get. If you are creeped out by somebody else, but there is no actual h

Justice can't AFFORD three bathrooms, you bigot.

but isn't it just the lack of wholesale acceptance of transgendered identity the only thing that invalidates transgender identity?

 

No, there's this thing called reality. No matter how accepting a society is, they're still not. If our government decides that a man is a woman, that's just a flaw in the government. Indiana never had the power to make pi 3.2. The Catholic Church couldn't make the geocentric model true no matter who they put on trial.

 

There is no force on earth that can actually change a person's sex. Can't be done.

 

 

 

But you should enter the 21st century.

 

There's no expiration date on simple facts no matter what old local custom you bring up. BTW, do you really want to base our lives on random local customs? I'm pretty sure you wouldn't like the results if you weren't cherry-picking.

 

Anyway, can't say I really heard of the fa'afafine before, but insta-research thanks to the internet makes me think you're overplaying the belief within the Somoan culture that these are female. It doesn't seem the the culture, or even the fa'afafine, truly believe that they're female, so much as they represent a third way where female cultural norms blend the strengths of both. Check out this video that includes a fa'afadfine flat out saying, "We know that we're boys at the end of the day." So, that seems to contradict your whole premise.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

There is no force on earth that can actually change a person's sex. Can't be done.

Yes, a transwoman's gender will differ from her genetic sex and vice versa.

 

But... who cares?

 

I guess that's what I will never get. If you are creeped out by somebody else, but there is no actual harm (theft, threats, violence) taking place, why on Earth take it beyond "Huh, well that makes me a little uncomfortable?" then moving on with your own life?

 

And this scenario where transwomen sneak into women's restrooms to perv out on women and children is just pathetic. Man up. Own your feelings. Don't create bogeymen to justify your discomfort.

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

But... who cares?

 

Someone who wants to change without a member of the opposite sex present.

 

It's not asking a lot and I'm willing to grant this.

 

 

 

Yes, a transwoman's gender will differ from her genetic sex and vice

 

Well, the whole basis of this being a civil right and being treated as second-class citizens is based on maintaining that they are, in fact, men or women. Washington officials are treating it as a fact and threatening to cut off funds. So even going that far puts you out there.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Boys are XY, girls are XX. There's certainly no arguing with that. Poe won't budge on that point, which is why it's a bit boring to interact with him.

 

How about we all just go to the restroom appropriate to the gender you're dressed as?

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

But... who cares?

Someone who wants to change without a member of the opposite sex present.

 

It's not asking a lot and I'm willing to grant this.

 

What about somebody who wants to change without someone of their sex who identifies as a different gender present?

 

If it's not too much to grant them this, where will transgender people go when they need to take a whizz?

 

:eek:

 

 

Yes, a transwoman's gender will differ from her genetic sex and vice

Well, the whole basis of this being a civil right and being treated as second-class citizens is based on maintaining that they are, in fact, men or women. Washington officials are treating it as a fact and threatening to cut off funds. So even going that far puts you out there.

 

I have zero problem treating transgender people as whatever sex they identify with. As far as "unintended consequences" that may occur from this, I can potentially see a reckoning in sports somewhere down the line if we start seeing a disproportionate number of transgender women competing at the highest levels. (What? Male/Female biology isn't a social construct?) But it's not like I stay up at night worrying about minor, easily fixable issues that might occur sometime in the future.
Link to post
Share on other sites

The NC law was passed in an emergency legislative session to override a pro-transgender ordinance passed by the City of Charlotte. This is the latest in a series of events involving the conservative statewide government trying to reign in the more liberal local governments in urban areas of the state. The interesting side effect is that Governor McCrory has shown himself to be so politically incompetent during the last few weeks, that it seems likely that this will propel his democratic challenger to victory in November. The legislature will probably stay Republican, though.

Link to post
Share on other sites

gyms, man, gyms.

 

I have to say I found it hard enough to change into my 'dress out' clothes for PE in 8th grade but it was more about body image than boys being in the bathroom.

 

I am still stuck on the manufactured fear that is going into this. I mean is this a problem that you've noticed prior to this thread when you are out in public? And does squeamish issues with this mean that others must conform to my ideas about who gets to use the bathroom to make me okay with going to the bathroom in public?

Link to post
Share on other sites
I am still stuck on the manufactured fear that is going into this. I mean is this a problem that you've noticed prior to this thread when you are out in public? And does squeamish issues with this mean that others must conform to my ideas about who gets to use the bathroom to make me okay with going to the bathroom in public?

There was a chick in our building who was creating "Fecal Frescos" in the stalls which eventually escalated to the bathroom walls. Major shit-ninja, as nobody ever figured out who it was. Very upsetting. I think we need to pass poop-check legislation for public restrooms.

 

:eek:

Link to post
Share on other sites

Personally, lazy eyes scare the hell out of me. Can never tell where they're really looking. Could be your chest, could be your nether regions.

 

HOW CAN ANYBODY REALLY KNOW?

Can't we just make them use their own restroom, please?

Link to post
Share on other sites

So a couple of stories that have nothing and everything to do with this topic:

 

First one is I am terrible human being and was obsessed with this guy who worked at Denny's overnight as a waiter. I'd close Taco Bell and talk my crew into going to Denny's for some breakfast before going home just so I could sit in this dudes section and check out his lazy eye. He'd come up and was the nicest guy in the world but I'd just follow that traveling lazy eye. Moving my body in the booth to scoot into its vision zone. I'm sure he thought I was the biggest asshole. But I left a big tip.

 

The other one had to do with something similar to Pongs shit-fresco painter. I used to manage Hardee's before Taco Bell. I asked this girl to go and check on the men's room because someone complained it was dirty. Usually that meant paper on the floor or something innocuous. Well, she comes back 10 minutes later sobbing that she can't do it. She can't clean the bathroom. I roll my eyes and storm off to go check it myself.

 

Some jackass had fished a turd from the toilet bowl and used it to write S - H - I - T over and over again on the stalls, the walls and the mirror. All I could say was, "well no shit."

 

I ended up making a homemade biohazzard suit out of trash bags and duct tape and we just took the hose to it.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Personally, lazy eyes scare the hell out of me. Can never tell where they're really looking. Could be your chest, could be your nether regions.

 

HOW CAN ANYBODY REALLY KNOW?

Can't we just make them use their own restroom, please?

Excellent idea. Wouldn't want them to aim with the wrong eyeball an accidentally piss up and across into someone's face.
Link to post
Share on other sites

 

but isn't it just the lack of wholesale acceptance of transgendered identity the only thing that invalidates transgender identity?

No, there's this thing called reality. No matter how accepting a society is, they're still not. If our government decides that a man is a woman, that's just a flaw in the government. Indiana never had the power to make pi 3.2. The Catholic Church couldn't make the geocentric model true no matter who they put on trial.

 

There is no force on earth that can actually change a person's sex. Can't be done.

 

 

But you should enter the 21st century.

There's no expiration date on simple facts no matter what old local custom you bring up. BTW, do you really want to base our lives on random local customs? I'm pretty sure you wouldn't like the results if you weren't cherry-picking.

 

Anyway, can't say I really heard of the fa'afafine before, but insta-research thanks to the internet makes me think you're overplaying the belief within the Somoan culture that these are female. It doesn't seem the the culture, or even the fa'afafine, truly believe that they're female, so much as they represent a third way where female cultural norms blend the strengths of both. Check out this video that includes a fa'afadfine flat out saying, "We know that we're boys at the end of the day." So, that seems to contradict your whole premise.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?

time_continue=278&v=F9xvkCa63Js

I just spent the whole post explaining to you that fa'afafine are a third gender. That represent BOTH masculine and feminine. So of course they recognise that they're boys. That doesn't negate everything else I've said. I was merely trying to point out that there is more to a persons gender than biology. It is a social construct as much as it is biological. But if you can't accept that then there is no point conversing with you.

Link to post
Share on other sites

'No, there's this thing called reality. No matter how accepting a society is, they're still not. If our government decides that a man is a woman, that's just a flaw in the government."

 

Disagree. The US government decided that interracial marriage was legal well before the people of the US starting accepting it. The government isn't there to 'decide' which

gender a person identifies with; it's there to offer legal protection. This isn't a flaw.

 

Also, gender identity isn't the same as gender-right?

 

And also, I find the fear of people 'checking out' each other pretty funny. These people seem to think everybody wants them.

Link to post
Share on other sites

What's funny to me is that I honestly believe there are legit points to be made all around. Not equivalent points, mind you, as people calling for a more diverse cast of superheroes and fewer female props have the stronger case and it's not even close, but I do believe there are ideas of value on all sides. A very real and productive conversation could actually occur if anybody wanted it, but at least right now, it appears the goal is simply being oppositional, scoring points and shouting down the "other side" until the discussion looks something like a crisp spring day in Berlin, 1945.

Because these kinds of issues, whatever legitimate grievances may once have propelled them, have come to be all about ego now.

Link to post
Share on other sites

hahaha

 

Well, my main point in posting that is just to see MG's head explode, since she's so anti-Trump (mainly because of stuff she reads online and she uncritically parrots out whatever the standard SJW talking point is of the day- I doubt she has the slightest clue what any of Trump's political positions actually are).

 

I've made my positions on the Donald well known on this forum, and also I've pretty clearly stated my position on the restroom issue (before Trump even said anything).

 

Trump happens to be right and he echoed what I basically said on pg 1 of this thread. He doesn't particularly care and neither do I. It's just not a big deal worth fighting over. I think the people that insist on separate sex restrooms aren't evil hitler crime against humanity auschwitz satan, and belittling the concerns (like people are doing in this thread to Poe) is counter-productive and exactly the type of behavior that generates SJW backlash. But I also don't see the big deal about having unisex restrooms either. Trump ain't going around giving speeches on this and "liking" things on facebook so that other SJWs will like him, so I don't think it's fair to label him a SJW. And neither am I. But if asked a direct question about my view on it, I'm going to say I don't particularly give a sh-t, and it appears he doesn't either.

 

Trump is about discussing the issues actually impacting the country- trade, outsourcing, Islamic civilization, the country slowly turning into a Latin American style banana republic, etc.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Doesn't really change my feelings on Trump. I mean, he was for single payer health care since Bernie's first (successful) mayoral run, right? I think anybody who has been paying one iota of attention knows he's always been moderately liberal to "I-don't-give-a-crap" on social issues (and up until recently, he was even further left on abortion than where Hillary Clinton is now); he's (currently) far right on the border and security issues, though with the military he focuses more on pandering to veterans (especially health care) and sounds way less interventionist than most of the "true conservatives" he's been running against.

 

So nah, his position on restrooms is no surprise.

 

What does surprise me is Cruz's idiotic doubling down on the stupid "grown men w/ little girls" meme:

Ted Cruz addressed the issue in a tweet after Trump's appearance, writing, "We shouldn't be facilitating putting little girls alone in a bathroom w/ grown men. That's just a bad, bad, bad idea[.]"

Uh, even if it were mathematically possible for him to get 1237 before the convention at this point, there aren't many evangelical votes left. Moron. I thought he was the "smart" Republican candidate?

 

:no:

Link to post
Share on other sites

Granted, I don't have my pulse on the latest social and legal trends concerning bathroom usage, but this all of a sudden became a thing.

 

I am all for social justice, but this issue highlights my issues with the SJW movement. It is common for SJW to call people that like bathrooms for separate genders hate mongorers. How can someone be a bigot for something that wasn't even a thing a few months ago? I think so many SJW miss the importance of dialogue and go right to the "you are a racist/bigot/closed-minded" card. So many people have concerns of, "I don't feel comfortable with this" only to be countered with "your comfort level is immaterial to my concern because you are a bigot".

I want to be clear that I am all for people using whatever bathroom they feel comfortable with (I prefer the unisex bathroom), but there are reasonable people with reasonable questions and concerns about this issue.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Doesn't really change my feelings on Trump. I mean, he was for single payer health care since Bernie's first (successful) mayoral run, right? I think anybody who has been paying one iota of attention knows he's always been moderately liberal to "I-don't-give-a-crap" on social issues (and up until recently, he was even further left on abortion than where Hillary Clinton is now); he's (currently) far right on the border and security issues, though with the military he focuses more on pandering to veterans (especially health care) and sounds way less interventionist than most of the "true conservatives" he's been running against.

That's a pretty solid description.

 

Oh pong, you know I'm just f-cking with you when I put you in that list right?

 

We've talked about this before (incidentally, also in the Trump thread I linked to). I know your position on this and while we're not going to agree, I respect your position since at least it's informed and you thought about it. At the end of the day, I'm just going to come down in a more authoritarian way on some things, and we'll probably never see eye to eye on that, but I know we also probably agree on more than we disagree (those things we do disagree on though, are pretty big).

 

I don't think you're an SJW. I do think that you can get emotional on a few issues (don't we all), some of which overlap with SJW pet issues, but you don't really have the same rhetorical style or temperament of an SJW. That doesn't mean you're in the Kurgan camp- don't get me wrong- but you're pretty clearly outside the SJW camp too.

Link to post
Share on other sites

×
×
  • Create New...