Inclusion along gender lines

[Destiny Skywalker]

Now that I'm a parent of a preschooler, I'm starting to see gender divisions that didn't previously exist. I've always noticed that little boys are usually more energetic and physical, but most kids still played well together. My own daughter has been having a little bit of a hard time lately because she's usually more energetic and physical than the girls, so she doesn't play with the girls very often because they're not stimulating enough, and the boys are usually beating each other up. Although, she did recently flip the script on me and wants to wear dresses and necklaces every day. I think she's finally decided she wants to fit in with the other girls, who wear the poofiest stuff lately. It's one thing to wear a skirt, it's another thing to wear a freaking tutu to school every day.

 

Now a moms group that I've been part of has started having "girl only" playdates, and it has a few of the moms of boys feeling hurt and angry. The first time it happened, it was a princess theme birthday party, and I thought it was a little weird, but I brushed it off assuming it was really because the mom didn't want a giant party and needed an excuse to cut the guest list. Now it's happening again and feelings are getting hurt, mostly by the adults. One of the boy moms told me it was teaching the kids to exclude already, and I think she has a point. The fact that the adults are encouraging this is not comforting.

 

How much of the divisions amongst gender do you think are taught and how much of it is nature? I have my biases because I was always a tomboy and still work in a male-dominated profession. Girly things don't always come natural to me. I can't stand "pink toys", but I'm a strong believer in equality amongst the sexes. I think a lot of it is taught, but I do see some differences in behavior at very young ages.

[Poe Dameron]

Is this a case of parents excluding, or do the little girls themselves perhaps just not want to deal with the boys? Self-segregation along gender lines is extremely common among preschool children across cultures. Developmental psychologists have been looking into it for decades wondering if it's the result of a sexist society, but the research on the subject suggests that gender segregation from about the age of 3 is a natural compulsion and not a result of societal norms.

[Pong Messiah]

gender segregation from about the age of 3 is a natural compulsion and not a result of societal norms.

and that is not ok

 

we must stop the patriarchy from instilling these problematic natural compulsions in our children

 

[The Kurgan]

Now a moms group that I've been part of has started having "girl only" playdates, and it has a few of the moms of boys feeling hurt and angry. The first time it happened, it was a princess theme birthday party, and I thought it was a little weird, but I brushed it off assuming it was really because the mom didn't want a giant party and needed an excuse to cut the guest list. Now it's happening again and feelings are getting hurt, mostly by the adults. One of the boy moms told me it was teaching the kids to exclude already, and I think she has a point. The fact that the adults are encouraging this is not comforting.

I was the only boy at my cousin's birthday party once when I was a kid. The experience scarred me for life, and is no doubt a major factor in why I ended up the way I did when it comes to gender related stuff. Those boys should be so lucky.

 

What would be interesting to see will be the responses of the girl's parents to boys only birthday parties, should any of these be planned and announced. In keeping with our generation's "folly of the month", as it were, my guess is that there will be cries of discrimination and misogyny echoed all across the internet, while reaction to girl's only parties will be greeted with derisive grumbling about crybabies and the like. It will fall upon the girls of our daughters and grand daughter's generation to reap the bitter harvest of the late 20th/early 21st century's bizarre and destructive misandrist neurosis when it comes to gender politics, when their time will have found some other kind of ideological death wish to preoccupy themselves with. The specific nature of the follies whose beat to which people will march in lockstep, eyes closed, ears stopped, heads bobbing and mouths chanting slogans in perfect unison, varies from generation to generation. But the human vulnerability to such follies is among the few absolutes that can be counted on never to change.

 

How much of the divisions amongst gender do you think are taught and how much of it is nature?

No way of knowing - impossible to conduct experiments that remove all other factors. Of more significance, I think, are the political implications of one's preference of nature over nurture, or vice versa, as an explanation for gender differences. It is, as always, the political implications and thus questions of identity that will, vastly more than science itself could or would, determine people's preferred answers to that question. Much like debates over the existence of God.

[Ms. Spam]

 

gender segregation from about the age of 3 is a natural compulsion and not a result of societal norms.

and that is not ok

 

we must stop the patriarchy from instilling these problematic natural compulsions in our children

 

 

transgender bathrooms would be a good start!

[Cerina]

I would just like to quickly say, again, how deliriously happy I am that I have boys.

[Pong Messiah]

I have boys.

stop stifling their identities

[The Kurgan]

I would just like to quickly say, again, how deliriously happy I am that I have boys.

Just wait until they discover tumblr. That could well change. Lord only knows what kind of "gender identities" they could unearth for themselves then.

[Destiny Skywalker]

Girls are great. You just have to raise them right. I think my daughter is awesome. And I am very aware that I am her biggest role model. If you ask her what she wants to be when she grows up, she'll tell you she wants to be a Mommy. Not because she wants to stay at home, but she wants to be like me. I am a professional and a mother. It is difficult to balance, but I wouldn't have it any other way.

 

In all seriousness, that's what concerns me about the way the moms in this case are acting. I've noticed the gender lines being drawn in preschool. I figured it was natural. This is the first time I've really noticed the parents reinforcing it. With girls, I worry its setting them up to be Mean Girls. They're already teaching their daughters to exclude others based on something they can't change. If it were boys, I'd be concerned that they're reinforcing sexism. The birthday party was one thing, she claimed her daughter had requested it. But an established playgroup that previously didn't discriminate is kind of messed up. Because it's not just the preschool age kids, it's the toddlers now, too.

 

Part of me thinks that this is really just adults being cliquey and stay at home moms just wanting to play princess, but now it's having consequences for children, and I sort of doubt they've even considered that aspect.

[Guest El Chalupacabra]

 

Part of me thinks that this is really just adults being cliquey and stay at home moms just wanting to play princess, but now it's having consequences for children, and I sort of doubt they've even considered that aspect.

I think this pretty much is the answer to your question. As a non-kid-haver, I can tell you that some parents can be some awfully cliquish, elitist, and exclusionary people. By definition, a mom's group is a type of clique. Why are you surprised that some members of that clique want to further separate themselves from what they perceive as less desirable members? Even if that means that desire to clique it up a notch contradicts the original (or supposed) intent of the mom's group. There are parents out there that see their children more as accessories or extensions of themselves, than as actual individuals, and that level of narcissism causes them to do some selfish crazy stuff that defies common sense or reason.

[Poe Dameron]

Part of me thinks that this is really just adults being cliquey and stay at home moms just wanting to play princess, but now it's having consequences for children, and I sort of doubt they've even considered that aspect.

Are there any boys that even care about missing the princess party?

 

This sounds more like parents with ideological ideas on raising their children upset that not everyone shares their strictly enforced inclusion value system. Add in parents who are just upset that their kid didn't get invited, and this looks like it has a lot more to do with the parental group politics than it does any possible damage that will happen to the children if they have a girls' night out.

[monkeygirl]

What the Pope above me said. That's what I think.

[Ms. Spam]

I kind of have concerns to, Destiny. From a teacher stand point I try to girls to be interested in math and science so I try to ingrate lessons to be interesting and draw girls in otherwise we only have boys participating in science UIL competitions. On the flip side I really struggle to get boys interested in reading. My boy students tend to score lower in reading comprehension while they excel at math.

Something weird that my niece with three boys and a brand new girl did was make her husband take their baby girl on a date for valentines day. She likes playing up that helpless girl but adorable angle and revels in being a stay at home mom and breaks down crying to be rescued if something happens.

[Guest El Chalupacabra]

What the Pope above me said. That's what I think.

Since when are you Catholic?

[Pong Messiah]

all the cool kids like the pope now

[Ms. Spam]

In proper non-sequitor fashion: El Papa is coming to San Antonio!

[Destiny Skywalker]

The new Pope is pretty rad, not going to lie.

 

I hate seeing girls discouraged from STEM, Spam. And boys not being good at reading is blown off so often, and it's such a critical skill. I was fortunate to always be encouraged by most teachers, it wasn't until I got to college that I realized the struggle was real.

[Ms. Spam]

Some girls have really good money sense so I try that as an avenue to get them to think about finance careers. A local Credit Union had a woman come out to talk to the kids and I pushed it beyond being a "teller" angle. When they hear at home that they're princesses and that men will take care of them that's great until your divorced and your ex gives you the shaft and you have no sense about money or anything. Of course I don't play it like that during the talks but any interest in something other than hair and make up and dress up is encouraged by me in class. I got lucky when I taught middle school math and we had a female surveyor come out to talk to the kids. Some of my girls are more athletic too than the guys. Recess is great.

[Cerina]

Girls are great. You just have to raise them right. I think my daughter is awesome. And I am very aware that I am her biggest role model. If you ask her what she wants to be when she grows up, she'll tell you she wants to be a Mommy. Not because she wants to stay at home, but she wants to be like me. I am a professional and a mother. It is difficult to balance, but I wouldn't have it any other way.

 

In all seriousness, that's what concerns me about the way the moms in this case are acting. I've noticed the gender lines being drawn in preschool. I figured it was natural. This is the first time I've really noticed the parents reinforcing it. With girls, I worry its setting them up to be Mean Girls. They're already teaching their daughters to exclude others based on something they can't change. If it were boys, I'd be concerned that they're reinforcing sexism. The birthday party was one thing, she claimed her daughter had requested it. But an established playgroup that previously didn't discriminate is kind of messed up. Because it's not just the preschool age kids, it's the toddlers now, too.

 

Part of me thinks that this is really just adults being cliquey and stay at home moms just wanting to play princess, but now it's having consequences for children, and I sort of doubt they've even considered that aspect.

I think it would be really fun to have a girl to go with the boys, but the thought of dealing with other people's bullshit about little girls makes me super happy that I don't have one. Which is sad, because it would have nothing to do with the girl herself. As much spotlight as the entire "mean girls" thing has gotten in recent years, there are still waaaayyy too many people who don't consider that style of bullying to be actual bullying. With boys, bullies tend to be more physical and stereotypical, and it's not hard for most people to see that behavior for what it is. For girls, bullying is more exclusionary than anything. Relational bullying. And this is something I see a lot of people not recognizing as bullying.

 

 

Part of me thinks that this is really just adults being cliquey and stay at home moms just wanting to play princess, but now it's having consequences for children, and I sort of doubt they've even considered that aspect.

Are there any boys that even care about missing the princess party?

 

Mine would. A few years ago one of his friends had a girls only tea party for her birthday, and it completely tore him up. He could not understand why he wasn't invited. In fact, he still wants to attend a tea party so he can experience one, and I believe part of it is so that he can try to figure out why one would not include boys.

 

In my experience, my kid and his friends don't care one iota about exclusion along gender lines. It just doesn't come up until an adult pushes it on them. At home, Noah frequently plays with a bunch of our neighbors (a 6 year old girl next door and her 4 year old brother and the 7 and 3 year old sisters down the street.) We're the most free-range, hands-off parents of the group, so I think we get a more natural, organic, and authentic picture of how the kids behave together when they're at our house (which they usually all are, because we're the most hands-off and therefore have fewer "rules"). For the most part, if they split up at all while playing, it's along interest lines - one group decides to make something kinda crafty while the other group decides to set up an obstacle course, for example. The two boys play with each other and with the girls equally. Until another parent is on the scene. I've seen my neighbors chastise their daughter for getting rough with the boys (even though she's older than one and taller than both) because it "isn't ladylike". I've seen one of the moms "suggest" to the girls that perhaps they'd prefer to "settle down" a bit and "do something more crafty" when they all get pretty rowdy. One time the other boy got into major trouble for lightsaber fighting with one of the girls because he MIGHT "hit a girl"...with a pool noodle lightsaber!! And on several occasions, my son was left out because one of the moms wanted the girls to come back to her place for dress up time which he really wanted to participate in with all of his dress up stuff (the girls have princess costumes and cowgirl costumes and rocker chick costumes, mine has all outfits and accessories necessary to be every Avenger, Ninja Turtle, or jedi he wants.) When they're all here under just our supervision though, Trevor and I let them do whatever they want, and it's extremely rare for them to be exclusionary at all. And I've never seen it along gender lines.

[Poe Dameron]

The breaking up among gender lines tends to be universal. It's not because individual parents have done anecdotes XYZ. They've checked in other cultures, and it happens there too. It's also not 100% as there are children that cross the gender gap creating exceptions. The tendency can also be reduced in some cases through active parental/teacher management. But that children tend to clump together at young ages among gender lines is something easily apparent to most researchers and teachers.

 

Now, small groups are obviously an exception. The dynamics of 5 playmates are different than a mass 20 children in a classroom. Especially in your case where you've got two sets of siblings and the age range is wide enough that they're not even really peers and the social structure is based more on age, maturity, and family dynamics than anything else.

 

I'm willing to bet that when these same children are at school, with no instruction from the teacher, most, if not all, of the children in your son's playgroup sit and play with their own gender.

[Pong Messiah]

enough with the hate speech poe

[Poe Dameron]

It's how I was raised.

[Cerina]

I wouldn't consider anything that goes on in a classroom to be a good example of nature. School is the most unnatural environment. Everything that happens there is adult led and compelled.

 

But still, my kid is just as likely to sit with girls as boys.

 

But either way, it's nearly impossible to say one way or another because most children have already been influenced by adult stereotypes about gender since birth. It takes a LOT of effort on the part of the parents to keep these stereotypes from seeping into the children. A Lot. It's a constant battle.

 

Btw, children don't always group themselves by age either. That's another unnatural adult imposed exclusion.

[Mara Jade Skywalker]

I pretty much agree with everything Cerina and Destiny said. So much of gender segregation is because of what parents say. They probably don't even realize it.

 

Also, Cerina, I thought of you and Noah last week while on a Disney Cruise. I saw a little boy dressed as Rey and apparently he was also dressed as Elsa earlier in the week. It warmed my heart. We also saw tons of girl Vaders and boy Phasmas.

 

At the same time, I heard some woman complaining about all the Star Wars stuff and there not being enough activities for girls to do. She said this while little girls were lightsaber fighting all over the ship.

[Destiny Skywalker]

Went to a play cafe with both of my heathen children today, and a mall play area the day before (what can I say, it's been rainy). I didn't see a boy side or a girl side. The only time I saw "gender grouping" was because the two kids were there with a friend.

 

Mara, that kills me about "there's not enough things for girls to do". Ugggggghhhh. If your kids want to do something else, that's fine, but you probably shouldn't have gone on a Star Wars themed cruise if your kids don't want to do Star Wars stuff.