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This applies to me!

I think it's hard to say because it would greatly depend on who was writing it. I like exactly one EU book-- SOTE written by Steve Perry. I feel like her got it. I think Zahn and Lucerno are terrible writers on a base level that has nothing to do with Star Wars-- so if they wrote it no.

Even if Hemmingway wrote TFA as a novel I still don't know I'd like it though. My biggest problem with the EU is that it never feels like Star Wars to me. The magic and wonder is missing when you take characters from a fast-paced action film and try to place them in a literary space. Pain and simple, in prose, Star Wars doesn't work for me.

 

How did you guess ? lol ! It apples in general though.

 

I don't look at it in terms of who wrote it and how it was written (novel format or film format) but as a story in it's own right. Imagine if any of those authors, (ones you like or don't) wrote a story set 40 years later where the Rebellion didn't defeat the Empire (we where deceived for all those years, they just won a battle)... with Luke in hiding, Han going back to smuggling and a young girl who just happens to know how to use the force etc saves the day along with a pilot who blows up yet another Death Star with the same weakness as the last two... does this sound like a good synopsis for a sequel to 'ROTJ' ?

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#2   Vader later says "her resistance to the mind probe is considerable."   I've long since thought, after Vader plucked the existence of Leia from Luke's mind in ROTJ, that "mind probe" was a Force

Oh shit. There goes the thread.

One question I've had on my mind for a while for people who like TFA (and in some cases don't like the EU)... what if the TFA was written and released as an EU novel and not a film. Would you think it was a worthy sequel ? [/size][/font]

Interesting question. In my opinion TFA is not a good Star Wars movie precisely because it plays like an EU book. The old characters written poorly. A new Empire with a new emperor figure along with his own mini Vader who, gee, just happens to be another Skywalker gone baddie. A super duper Death Star...
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I think the story and characters are more important than the standard of film making Tank. That's just a general opinion I share with many others.

 

Hunter, I agree. When you break down TFA it comes across like a really bad EU comic or Novel.

 

I used to read the EU in college. I enjoyed the first two Timothy Zahn books because it was the first time we got a story with those characters post ROTJ. I thought it captured the feel of the original films more than the prequels and TFA combined, and without the need to put it on film with the music etc.. after those books it just deteriorated for me.

 

I remember there being another Super Death Star type weapon in one of those Jedi Academy books. I don't know why I even bothered to carry on reading them all the way through.

 

But yes, TFA is like a really bad Dark Horse comic... and as bad as many of them where, none had the laziness to just recycle ANH, swap a few characters around and pass it off as a continuation of a classic story.

 

I still find the film to be an insult to the intelligence of Star Wars fans. The resistance allow a Storm trooper right into the heart of their operations ? WTF ?The heroes just happen to bump into Rey on a space station the size of a planet or moon ? Han Solo just happens to be a few miles away from the Falcon right after Rey steals it ? R2D2 just happens to wake up at the most convenient time ? Ugh...

 

Many people hated Star Trek Nemesis because it was very similar to Wrath of Kahn and I can see their argument, but no way was it as much of a remake as TFA was to ANH.

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The thing here is Obi Wan instructs Luke to trust his instincts (The Force) before he turns off his nav computer. No one tells Rey to do anything, (e.g. Jedi Mind Trick) she just knows how to do it, plus... firing a shot from a ship is nothing compared to taking on a dark Jedi who's been trained by Luke and Snoke it seems... and actually winning.

That's the difference. Luke was supposed to be the son of the Chosen One, with the idea that he might have greater potential than his father (with the Emperor certainly thinking Luke could destroy the Sith / Empire), yet early on, he still needed prodding to use the force in the Death Star trench, and after three years, struggled to call his lightsaber when hanging in the Wampa cave.

 

After all of that, Luke's progress seems natural and believable, he just did not drop on the scene in ANH with the ability of his ROTJ form--or even at his ESB training level. That gradual progress in ability was as much a part of his journey as the character/emotional side.

 

From what is presented on screen (because novels & other crap need not apply), Rey does not grow naturally--her out-of-nowhere ability to defeat a well "dark Jedi" trained by no less than two powerful masters--screamed some need to artificially jump start the character, and make her the most formidable hero from the start. If she's this powerful before one second of training, one can imagine a trained Rey wiping the floor with Snoke and Ren over a lazy weekend. No challenge or belief that she might face her own mortality as in Luke's case in all three OT films.

 

I've said it before, but an untrained Rey beating Ren was as unbelievable as if the films had ANH Luke defeating AOTC Anakin; the long-absorbed training, understanding of the Force and experience applying it as a Jedi would give Anakin / Ren an undeniable advantage.

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And I will say for the 267436875267th time, none of what you said is a problem IF REY IS MORE POWERFUL THAN LUKE.

 

I don't know why people can't get past this. She's not as well trained or experienced as Luke, but the Force is stronger in her.

 

The ST is NOT Luke's story, it's Rey's. She is the new hero. Anakin was supposed to be the MOST POWERFUL JEDI EVAAAR and yet Luke was trained in a fraction of the time and took him down.

 

Each trilogy gives us somebody with stronger Force potential.

 

I get why people may not like TFA but using Luke as the only benchmark to Force potential and growth is a flawed method because Rey is intended to be more powerful.

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I get why people may not like TFA but using Luke as the only benchmark to Force potential and growth is a flawed method because Rey is intended to be more powerful.

Part of it could be the EU, which made Luke into Superman on steroids.

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And I will say for the 267436875267th time, none of what you said is a problem IF REY IS MORE POWERFUL THAN LUKE.

I don't know why people can't get past this. She's not as well trained or experienced as Luke, but the Force is stronger in her.

The ST is NOT Luke's story, it's Rey's. She is the new hero. Anakin was supposed to be the MOST POWERFUL JEDI EVAAAR and yet Luke was trained in a fraction of the time and took him down.

Each trilogy gives us somebody with stronger Force potential.

I get why people may not like TFA but using Luke as the only benchmark to Force potential and growth is a flawed method because Rey is intended to be more powerful.

 

The reason it's a problem is because it's been well established in six film prior (through dialogue, story and actions), that the path to becoming a Jedi is a long path. It's a hard life that requires full focus and discipline, none of which the character of Rey displays. She's not a Jedi no, but she's well on her way.

 

It's like having any kind of talent, without the training, guidance and hard work it's useless and will never reach anywhere near it's full potential. That's why athletes train hard 5 days a week, or musicians play their instruments for more or less the same amount of time. This is why the character of Rey cheapens the whole concept of the Force and how it relates to both the Jedi and Sith movements. She doesn't even require any training whatsoever, this is totally absurd. There is no need for a master or an apprentice in the new JJ universe.

 

I think the only reason Luke took Vader down was because Vader is an old man at this point, (what is left of him) and I think by that point he was about to give up anyway. His plan to turn Luke over was finished and I doubt Vader ever had any desire to murder his own son.

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There's an interesting fan theory going around suggesting Rey is being influenced by the Dark Side and that is what is giving her her power. This is based on Yoda telling Luke that the Dark Side is quicker, easier, and more seductive, so maybe she is channeling the Dark Side, or maybe someone from the Dark side is channeling her, but to just enable a character to just come out of nowhere and be able to do all this stuff with no guidance, or training really does cheapen Star Wars.

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My point remains.

 

6 movies establishes very little. Anakin is too old at 8. Luke is too old at 22. Anakin trained for 15 years before making master, Luke trained for about a day with Obi-Wan, and depending on how long you think it took the Falcon to get to Bespin, maybe a week or two with Yoda.

 

And how about Luke's level up between ESB and ROTJ? He clearly hadn't gone back to Yoda, and yet he was WAY more powerful than he was before. For that matter, Ben never taught him telekinesis, but he'd managed to figure that out on his own between ANH and ESB. Jedi grow in power independently from training. Everything you say is established may be true-- but so are all of these exceptions.

 

The Force wills strong beings into existence. That just happens. If it can make a virgin birth happen, surely it can make a girl naturally adept at the Force.

 

We're talking about a made up universe that has made up rules, there is NOTHING to say the rules might change. Is it retconning? Sure-- but literally every SW movie retcons something.

 

It's like saying werewolf movie A doesn't count because it had a werewolf survive fire, while werewolf movie B says fire kills were wolves. It's fiction, you can make up whatever you want.

 

I get that you hate it and have no shortage of reasons. I can say the same of the PT. But this is one point that I just think is fan-plaining. The Force is AWAKENING after being in a lull-- it has willed a power person into being. She has more power than any Jedi before her-- but she needs training and guidance.

 

That's straight up fairy tale 101.

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My point remains.



6 movies establishes very little. Anakin is too old at 8. Luke is too old at 22. Anakin trained for 15 years before making master, Luke trained for about a day with Obi-Wan, and depending on how long you think it took the Falcon to get to Bespin, maybe a week or two with Yoda.



Those six movies establish a lot. In the prequels it's established that Jedi's have to be trained from an early age and that Anakin, who is around 10 years old at the time is considered too old to be trained. Luke had about a day with Obi Wan but didn't really learn much except how to deflect a blaster with his eyes covered. Between the events of ANH and ESB it's been established (in behind the scenes interviews) that it's around three years, so sometime between those two films Luke has probably been doing some independent training.



By the time ESB comes around he's not leaned much at all. He finds it difficult to to pull that Lightsaber out of the ground while he's hanging upside down, unlike Rey who can snatch it from the grasp of a well trained light side and dark side user. We later see him with Yoda, (again in an upside down position) improving on these levitation skills.... that's an interesting parallel by the way... because the third time we see him in an upside down position he's using a new skill, telepathy. I don't think Luke knew he could do this. He called out to Ben and got no reply, so in complete desperation called out to Leia, who probably picked it up only because she is Force sensitive and closely connected to Luke. This is nothing at all like Rey. We don't see every little detail of Luke's training, so Yoda could have taught him that technique. What we do learn is that Luke could feel their pain from a vast distance, that's not telepathy but it does spell it out loud and clear there is a spiritual connection between the siblings.



And how about Luke's level up between ESB and ROTJ? He clearly hadn't gone back to Yoda, and yet he was WAY more powerful than he was before. For that matter, Ben never taught him telekinesis, but he'd managed to figure that out on his own between ANH and ESB. Jedi grow in power independently from training. Everything you say is established may be true-- but so are all of these exceptions.



Was he way more powerful than before ? I never got that from watching the film. The only thing we saw him do was a force choke on one of Jabbas guards. He tried a Jedi Mind Trick and failed, managed to fall into the Rancor pit and had difficulty getting out of it, got told by Yoda he wasn't a Jedi, got whooped on a Speeder Bike. Got his ass kicked by the Emporer. He hadn't leveled up that much.




The Force wills strong beings into existence. That just happens. If it can make a virgin birth happen, surely it can make a girl naturally adept at the Force.



Revenge of the Sith hinted very strongly that Anakin was a product of Darth Plageus, which technically would mean Anakin was conceived without sex, but completely rules out that he was brought into existence via the Force alone.



It's like saying werewolf movie A doesn't count because it had a werewolf survive fire, while werewolf movie B says fire kills were wolves. It's fiction, you can make up whatever you want.



That's the very reasons many sequels can suck. You have to invent something new yes but you also need to respect the source material. This is something JJ Abrams doesn't do.



I get that you hate it and have no shortage of reasons. I can say the same of the PT. But this is one point that I just think is fan-plaining. The Force is AWAKENING after being in a lull-- it has willed a power person into being. She has more power than any Jedi before her-- but she needs training and guidance.



That's straight up fairy tale 101.



.... and again, is one of the many reasons why this sequel sucks.



PS, if the Force has been in a lull then what does this imply ? That there have been no Force sensitive people ? It can't be because we have Kylo Ren and Lukes slaughtered students.

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Plus, we know that

 

1-The Force controls your actions, from Luke's conversation with Obi Wan on the Falcon

 

2-The Force has a will, from Qui Gon who mentions the "will of the Force"

 

The Force is trying to get Rey to Luke, it's controlling her actions and willing her to find Luke.

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So the Force is now a conscious entity ?

 

If it's willing her to find Luke then why doesn't it just will Luke to do what it wants him to do ? Why doesn't it will Leia into finding the map inside R2D2 so she can find Luke ? I would have thought Leia would have the smarts to figure out if Luke left any clues they could be contained within R2.

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I'm not going to say anything else, because my point is being missed and I can only say it so many times over.

 

RULES CHANGE. It's as simple as that. Luke is not the best, plain and simple.

 

You don't like that-- and that's cool. But your faulting a movie for saying its logic is wrong because you don't like it, when in fact, the logic is sound because no more or less consistent than the rest of the movies are with itself.

 

You can hate it all you want, but hate it because you don't agree with it-- not because it's wrong.

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So the Force is now a conscious entity ?

 

If it's willing her to find Luke then why doesn't it just will Luke to do what it wants him to do ? Why doesn't it will Leia into finding the map inside R2D2 so she can find Luke ? I would have thought Leia would have the smarts to figure out if Luke left any clues they could be contained within R2.

 

I don't know, I guess you'd have to ask The Force.

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It's not about Luke being the best, it has nothing to do with Luke, I only bring Luke up because it's you who uses him as a benchmark. It's do with the fact that in order to be able to do things Jedi do that you no longer need any form of Jedi training. It cheapens the whole concept of what it takes to become a Jedi. There's a hundred films out there where people have force like powers that require no training.

 

The whole concept of the Jedi and the training and discipline to learn these skills have been conveniently brushed under the carpet so we can have a Super Hero like female that kicks ass like no one before her... ironically this weakens her character. Unlike Luke who relies on his friends all the time Rey is Wonder Woman. Even if she where a male character I would still have this problem. When Luke goes off to face Vader for the first time Yoda say's 'There is another', this tells us Luke can be defeated. When he goes to fight Vader for the second time Yoda dies, he loses the people he relies on. This ups the stakes. With Rey it's just like, well, she kicked Kylo Ren's ass last time, and she didn't need any help then. With Rey, there are no stakes.

 

In fact I never saw Luke as being the most powerful Jedi. Before the prequels we had no idea who came before him other than Vader, Obi Wan and Yoda. Even after the seeing the prequels it looks quite obvious that most of those Jedi Knights we see would have whooped Luke's ass if they where alive in the same time period. To say he IS the most powerful Jedi, just because he is the son of Vader is presumptuous. I like that he isn't the most powerful. The fact that he is flawed is part of what makes him likeable.

 

Whoever started this thread started it on the basis that Rey's abilities weren't as over the top as people have been saying by drawing comparisons to Luke blowing up the Death Star, which I happen to disagree with.

 

I disagree with the inconsistency comment too Tank. Things have to change, I agree and I can accept that, but when you disrespect source material it show's either laziness on the writers part or a misunderstanding of the concept already established and that contributes a great deal to why I hate this film. It's nothing to do with right or wrong, it's to do with good or bad writing, and in my opinion, TFA is the worst written (dialogue aside) Star Wars film to date.

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I only bring Luke up because it's you who uses him as a benchmark.

Nope. See-- this is what I keep saying. I'm not using him as a benchmark. I'm saying the problem people have with Rey is because they are using him as a bench mark.

 

Rey has potential. That's it. She did some amazing stuff-- but she's raised herself, and one can assume she easily has learned things out of reflex just like Luke must have between movies.

 

If you accept she is more powerful than anyone before her, then nothing is inconsistent. She is the new way. All the stuff you're saying about what was established isn't being ignored. Its being superceded. YES Jedi used to have to be trained since birth-- but things have changed. She is different.

 

One line from Luke in E8 will solve it--

 

"That Force is stronger with that girl than with any I've seen. She takes to it, it takes to her-- she advances faster than should be possible, She is different."

 

Different does not mean wrong.

 

Again-- both Anakin and Luke in their respective trilogies changed all the rules before them, why is Rey changing them inconsistent?

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I find your points are not mutually exclusive. I agree with the trumpet player 2 that TFA is the worst written SW film to date. But I agree with Driver that not every Force user has to grow up the same way Luke or Anakin or anyone else did. Rey's abilities are following a different path.

 

So I hate TFA just as much as trumpet player for all the stuff I've already mentioned, none of which have to do with the character of Rey. I find her to be only thing watchable about that film.

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Nope. See-- this is what I keep saying. I'm not using him as a benchmark. I'm saying the problem people have with Rey is because they are using him as a bench mark.

 

Tank, no offence but if you scroll back through the thread you keep bringing him up.

Rey has potential. That's it. She did some amazing stuff-- but she's raised herself, and one can assume she easily has learned things out of reflex just like Luke must have between movies.

 

That's a valid point. The story would benefit if this was actually confirmed but it hasn't been. We shouldn't be required to try to fill in the blanks. We are all just guessing at this point.

If you accept she is more powerful than anyone before her, then nothing is inconsistent. She is the new way. All the stuff you're saying about what was established isn't being ignored. Its being superceded. YES Jedi used to have to be trained since birth-- but things have changed. She is different.

 

It's not about the amount of power, it' about the training, and without the need for training it just takes away any kind of respect I have for this made up concept in a made up universe.

One line from Luke in E8 will solve it--

"That Force is stronger with that girl than with any I've seen. She takes to it, it takes to her-- she advances faster than should be possible, She is different."

Different does not mean wrong.

 

Is this actually a leaked line from the film or are you making this up ?

Again-- both Anakin and Luke in their respective trilogies changed all the rules before them, why is Rey changing them inconsistent?

 

They didn't change the rules. Anakin came on board a little late but had training. Luke came on board much later and had very little training. It doesn't change the rules, it makes allowances.

 

Imagine if a Starfleet cadet got booted out of the academy before he completed his training, snuck on board the Enterprise, got back from a mission and then got promoted to Captain of their flasgship... oh wait..lol !

 

Again. JJ undermines what it means to become a Captain in Star Trek just like he does with what it takes to becoming a Jedi. It's disrespectful to the Military.

 

I'll draw an analogy to better explain. I used to play the Trumpet from around the age of 11 to 20, I got to grade 8 which is the highest grade you can get. It was hard work and it took many years, about eight or nine. I wasn't the best Trumpet player around, but without sounding like I'm blowing my own Trumpet I was pretty good at it and I was better than those I knew who I played with in bands various and Orchestras. I used to win music festivals all the time. I even played in a millitary band for three years (so I know a little bit about what it takes to become an Officer or a Captain). Anyway...

 

At the same time I knew there where other Trumpet players out there who where far better than me, but like me they had been playing for years too. If you where to tell me that some amazingly talented Trumpet player could pick up the instrument after a couple of lessons and be better than me I would laugh, because it is just not possible without the training and teaching that is needed. I know it's not the same thing as becoming a Jedi (which isn't even real), but what playing a musical instrument as a child and a teenager taught me is that no matter how good or gifted you may be at doing something, you have to work hard and you need the guidance and the training, same with Art college (I learned so much). This is probably how I identified with the whole concept of becoming a Jedi and is why I like it.

 

TFA does away with all of this, knowledge is irrelevant, (because Rey hasn't learned anything from anyone) patience is irrelevant, (the powers just came to her), There goes some of the Virtues of the Jedi, straight out of the window.

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Must we assume that Rey never used the force before The Force Awakens? Anakin clearly used the force all the time, before the events of The Phantom Menace. Who trained him? Who's to say Rey didn't also use the force all the time, without really understanding what she was doing?

 

Was her saving BB-8 about her being confrontational, or was she unintentionally throwing some mind trick action into the mix?

 

Would a seven year old (or however old) girl abandoned on a desert planet be able to survive without force powers? And it's not like she's a malnourished, underdeveloped human. In a sense, she thrived despite horrible odds, considering she earned enough food and water to afford her the strength to scale enormous structures while scavenging. We see her descend what appears to be several hundred feet at the beginning of the movie. My guess is that she didn't take an elevator up.

 

Also: it's strongly implied by the movies that meditation, isolation and self-awareness help jedi hone force abilities. Rey has those things in spades.

 

Who trained the first jedi?

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Obviously she's been relying on the Force for survival, it's instinctual, and that I'm ok with. It's the fact that she's able to use it so well that she is able to take on a well trained dark Jedi (or whatever you want to call him) and beat him without any formal training, Injured or not.

 

It's like some naturally gifted street fighter being able to on Bruce Lee without lessons in martial arts... not gonna happen.

 

I know it's a film, and it's fantasy, but what made the original films work so well is that certain aspects are (to an extent) grounded in reality, which enables us to relate... these aspects where thought through in previous films, the same can't be said for this travesty of a sequel.

 

Hey JJ let's have an awesome female lead, like Luke and Anakin but more bad ass, we'll just skip all the training so we can have more action for the ADHD members of our audience who like films like Transformers. Let's have a black guy and make him more of a racial stereotype than any other Star Wars character before now. He can be like the funny side kick black guy in Transformers too, all hyper and that.....this will get the audience some cheap laughs. As we are being more diverse with our cast just to reach a wider audience (and not because it serves the story) then we should also have a female Yoda like character. fuck story, fuck character development, let's just throw in Han Solo to please the older members of the audience. We don't have to continue with his character arc, let's just say he split up with Leia and went back to smuggling, despite the fact he's partly responsible for allowing his Son to run off with the new Empire so he can blow planets up.

 

This film is devoid of creativity, there is no artistic vision, It's like something five year old kids playing with their action figures would come up with in the school playground.

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I'm going to regret asking these questions, but....

 

 

What does Rey's lack of training in this film (ignoring that this will be a plot in later movies) have to do with people who are diagnosed with ADHD?

 

How is Finn a racial stereotype?

 

 

 

As we are being more diverse with our cast just to reach a wider audience (and not because it serves the story)

 

What do you mean by diversity serving the story? What is wrong with reaching a wider audience?

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