The Luke Problem

[Svenn]

It's at least relevant that Kylo DID have Rey beat, and probably had her dead, until he let up to offer her to join him. If he hadn't given her the space to collect herself, then she'd be dead at the bottom of the chasm.

 

He doesn't seem weak to me in terms of force potential or in his caliber as a villain. He's just a villain in progress. Hes still training. He's reckless. Over-confident. He's used to using the force to prey upon non-force users (backstabbing his compatriots aside - he presumably had the power of surprise then). In both cases that Rey displayed force adeptness, he lost focus. I imagine that it will be less of a problem for him in the next movie, because he will have learned from it (and will no longer be surprised by Rey).

[Brett]

I don't think everyone was looking for Luke because they wanted him to kick ass for them. I think they wanted his wisdom, insight and leadership. He's old, he'll probably still fight, but no way in hell is he gonna be geriatric Mario Bros-ing a ala Dooku, Palpy or Yoda.

Gandalf had plenty to do without getting in the way after he came back from the dead. It'll just be similar to that... with Rey being Frodo... or something.

[Guest El Chalupacabra]

I don't think everyone was looking for Luke because they wanted him to kick ass for them. I think they wanted his wisdom, insight and leadership. He's old, he'll probably still fight, but no way in hell is he gonna be geriatric Mario Bros-ing a ala Dooku, Palpy or Yoda.

Gandalf had plenty to do without getting in the way after he came back from the dead. It'll just be similar to that... with Rey being Frodo... or something.

And if he did display a high degree of power, it will be through using the force and out thinking his opponents, not physical feats, just like Obi Wan.

[Driver]

 

but that might be just because you really dig disagreeing with most of the stuff I say and really want me to be wrong since I'm such a pompous know-it-all.

I really wish you'd stop saying stuff like that. I've never said an unkind word towards you, but you've insulted yourself on my behalf at least half a dozen times.

 

Maybe it's your tone and/or my self loathing? Hard to say!

[Jacen123]

There is no Luke problem. Only Zuul.

[Metropolis]

Another movie where they're trying to make chicks the hero's. SMH.

[Darth Krawlie]

Trying to make chicks the hero's what?

[Driver]

boner pocket

[Metropolis]

Trying to make chicks the hero's what?

I'm not changing it.

[Zerimar Nyliram]

 

Disney Luke is a pansy. So he had a student turn to the dark side. So he gives up teaching the Force and goes into hiding because of it? EU Luke, on the other hand, knew that falling to the dark side was always a danger to someone learning the ways of the Force, and despite having at least three students (including his own nephew) fall, he persevered, as did his other students.

EU Luke fell to the dark side, too, though. EU Luke also went into self-exile, after being kicked out of the order he started. Jacen Solo didn't have the excuse of "having too much Vader in him, either," further illustrating the mega fail EU "Grand Master" Luke was.

 

TFA Luke, rather than just give up, was actually trying to find old records in the original jedi order temple to consult them, and presumably see how the original jedi order prevented newbies from falling to the dark side, since Palpatine did such a thorough job of destroying all the records. TFA Luke actually LEARNED from his mistake, and was smart enough to try not to repeat it!

 

Luke wasn't a failure. He did fail several times, but failure is part of success. Considering he rebuilt the Jedi Order and trained thousands of Jedi, only losing a handful (which, as I said, is inevitable when you get into this Force business) tells me that his legacy was a resounding success.

He did not go into self-exile' Daala exiled him, Forcing him to leave the Order in someone else's hands during his absence.

He didn't really "fall" to the dark side. Rather, he willingly turned in order to bring it down from the inside, like a double-agent. Of course, once he walked the dark path he did indeed struggle with the addiction that comes with it (as is the nature of the dark side), but he overcame it in the end. By the way, I hated that story, so don't come at me like I'm some Dark Empire fanboy.

 

Oh, and going to the ancient Jedi Temple looking for answers? Yeah, that also was ripped directly from the EU. Luke and company traveled to the ancient Jedi capital world of Ossus in the EU, albeit for reasons different from those mentioned in the film--namely, to gather information about the Order in order to reinstate them in the new Order, to see what the old Order did right and what it did wrong, and mold the new Order accordingly. (Although Ossus was not where the Jedi Order was born; it was born on Tython.)

 

 

 

 

I don't know about Luke mopping the floor with Ben. Luke has "Old Man Strength" it's true but Ben has the fire and vigor of youth and rage.

I agree about the Dead Pool.

Yeah, we are all basing the idea of Luke being all powerful off of EU Luke, anyway. No where is it established that Luke is all powerful in the movies. He certainly wasn't in ROTJ. Actually, I LIKE the idea of Luke being defeatable. Just because he is strong with the force, and a Jedi master, doesn't make him invincible. Yoda, Mace, and Obi Wan certainly weren't. Even Anakin/Vader, or the Emperor for that matter.

 

Not to mention when we saw the (at the time) the most powerful Jedi fight in AOTC and ROTS, the Yoda/Dooku & Yoda/Palaptine fights, they weren't exactly all they were cracked up to be.

 

I say keep Luke wise and powerful, but also with the possibility he can lose and isn't a given he will mop the floor with Kylo Ren, or Snoke.

 

Um, Luke wasn't all-powerful in the EU either. We just got done discussing how he made major mistakes and got his ass whooped, even as the Grand Master of the Jedi Order. If anything, EU Luke is just like Yoda. He's powerful, masterful, but ultimately still mortal and flawed.

 

 

 

 

When I saw on the main page that youse posted I thought "I wonder what he's going to say on this topic. I have no idea what point of view he may enter this conversation with!"

 

Seriously. If he is just going to continue to say the same exact things over and over I think we need to go back to that thread he made about if he should keep posting and change what we said.

 

I haven't said the same exact things. The topic of Luke Skywalker in the EU versus the FU has never come up in discussion, with me or with anyone else.

And actually, the reason why I felt it was okay to bring this discussion up is chiefly because of the replies I got in that thread, namely where someone mentioned that my point of view is different and somewhat interesting to ponder. And to be honest, I've felt pretty welcome here regardless of the discussion at hand, or how much people disagree with it. You're one of the only jackasses that gives a different vibe.

 

 

 

Fan Fiction Luke > EU Luke

I'm glad you've read the entire EU and enough fan fiction to make that judgment call.

And Mara, I am disappointed.

[ShadowDog]

I was teasing. But from the 20+ books I read before aborting the EU, it's accurate

[Zerimar Nyliram]

Ah. Well, try video games, comics, and numerous other media. The EU is more than just books, you know. We seem to forget that sometimes.

[ShadowDog]

That's true.

 

As far as the books go, I didn't want to hate them. They weren't a sports team I actively wanted to fail like the Pats. I wanted more star wars so I wanted to like them. And Istuck it out for a long time. But man, just too many of the books sucked too much ass. It was very disappointing.

 

Thank god we're getting movies now. And good ones!

[Zerimar Nyliram]

Eh, to each his own. To me, The Force Awakens didn't have that Star Wars feel and was a regurgitation of past Star Wars movies and EU plots.

Someone actually made a very good video about how The Force Awakens is actually a great case for the EU, and oddly promotes it.

[Mara Jade Skywalker]

I wrote fic. Of course I think fic Luke is better than EU Luke. I'm pretty picky when it comes to Luke portrayals. In Bantam he was too emo, in NJO he was too indecisive, in LotF he was an idiot, in FotJ he stopped believing people could be redeemed. Really the only authors who consistently wrote him well were Zahn and Allston.

 

I do think his portrayal in the new canon has been pretty good so far, especially The Weapon of a Jedi and Shattered Empire. Although I haven't read the other comics.

[Justus]

I just want to say that I think Arndt choked. Everything I've heard about his script sounds terrible. The above statement is silly because by that very same logic Han Solo could have done the exact same thing, and yet, while he certainly was at the center of the action, it in no way took away from Rey and/or Finn's stories. And in some ways it enhanced them.

 

I don't think Arndt was able to keep his fanboy in check.

 

Han in TFA, Obi-Wan in ANH, Henry Sr. in Last Crusade, Merlin in Excaliber... there's plenty examples of badass mentors who can be the central drive to the story without it being THEIR story.

 

That's how they handle it. We already got Luke's story, now we get Rey's. He can be there-- he can be a badass, he can be central to the plot, he can be the leader-- but the lessons to be learned, the character arc to follow, and the ultimate denouement will not be his.

 

And yeah, he'll probably die.

...which would be rinse and repeat of Jinn and Kenobi. SW needs original ideas more than JJ-Trek, and that's saying something.

 

So, while I agree that Luke can be a great mentor, but not dominate the main characters' journey, he need not die for what would now be a cheap emotional gimmick (like Solo), that does not move the story even an inch. No more dead mentors--or young followers screaming in protest of the death.

[Mara Jade Skywalker]

 

a cheap emotional gimmick (like Solo), that does not move the story even an inch.

 

... Wow.

[Zerimar Nyliram]

I'm in a strange minority here. While everyone knows I did not like the movie and for obvious reasons, I seem to be one of the few who thinks Han was spot on, even being one of the only things the film got right. Harrison Ford still plays a great Han Solo. I heard some people complain that he essentially played the character like Indiana Jones, to that I ask: Was the ever a huge difference between them? It always seemed to me as though Indy was written as an Earth Han, perhaps with a bit more humor to him. But it is entirely plausible that the situations Han finds himself in in the original Trilogy provided few opportunities for him to really show that side of his personality. Or maybe it simply comes out more now that he's older and has a better sense of who he is?

Who knows. I still think Han was one of the enjoyable parts of the film.

[Mara Jade Skywalker]

I haven't seen many people complain about Han Solo. I thought he was fantastic, and I'm not a huge fan of the character. But Old Man Solo is definitely my favorite Han Solo, and his death completely gutted me even though I saw it coming.

[RamonAtila]

Han felt like a ghost ever since he first came on screen.

[ShadowDog]

Harrison Ford is a movie star not an actor. Like John Wayne before him he basically played himself in every role but people like who that is so they love watching it movie after movie with just subtle differences

[The Choc]

 

 

Disney Luke is a pansy. So he had a student turn to the dark side. So he gives up teaching the Force and goes into hiding because of it? EU Luke, on the other hand, knew that falling to the dark side was always a danger to someone learning the ways of the Force, and despite having at least three students (including his own nephew) fall, he persevered, as did his other students.

EU Luke fell to the dark side, too, though. EU Luke also went into self-exile, after being kicked out of the order he started. Jacen Solo didn't have the excuse of "having too much Vader in him, either," further illustrating the mega fail EU "Grand Master" Luke was.

 

TFA Luke, rather than just give up, was actually trying to find old records in the original jedi order temple to consult them, and presumably see how the original jedi order prevented newbies from falling to the dark side, since Palpatine did such a thorough job of destroying all the records. TFA Luke actually LEARNED from his mistake, and was smart enough to try not to repeat it!

 

Luke wasn't a failure. He did fail several times, but failure is part of success. Considering he rebuilt the Jedi Order and trained thousands of Jedi, only losing a handful (which, as I said, is inevitable when you get into this Force business) tells me that his legacy was a resounding success.

 

He did not go into self-exile' Daala exiled him, Forcing him to leave the Order in someone else's hands during his absence.

 

He didn't really "fall" to the dark side. Rather, he willingly turned in order to bring it down from the inside, like a double-agent. Of course, once he walked the dark path he did indeed struggle with the addiction that comes with it (as is the nature of the dark side), but he overcame it in the end. By the way, I hated that story, so don't come at me like I'm some Dark Empire fanboy.

 

Oh, and going to the ancient Jedi Temple looking for answers? Yeah, that also was ripped directly from the EU. Luke and company traveled to the ancient Jedi capital world of Ossus in the EU, albeit for reasons different from those mentioned in the film--namely, to gather information about the Order in order to reinstate them in the new Order, to see what the old Order did right and what it did wrong, and mold the new Order accordingly. (Although Ossus was not where the Jedi Order was born; it was born on Tython.)

 

 

 

 

I don't know about Luke mopping the floor with Ben. Luke has "Old Man Strength" it's true but Ben has the fire and vigor of youth and rage.

 

I agree about the Dead Pool.

Yeah, we are all basing the idea of Luke being all powerful off of EU Luke, anyway. No where is it established that Luke is all powerful in the movies. He certainly wasn't in ROTJ. Actually, I LIKE the idea of Luke being defeatable. Just because he is strong with the force, and a Jedi master, doesn't make him invincible. Yoda, Mace, and Obi Wan certainly weren't. Even Anakin/Vader, or the Emperor for that matter.

 

Not to mention when we saw the (at the time) the most powerful Jedi fight in AOTC and ROTS, the Yoda/Dooku & Yoda/Palaptine fights, they weren't exactly all they were cracked up to be.

 

I say keep Luke wise and powerful, but also with the possibility he can lose and isn't a given he will mop the floor with Kylo Ren, or Snoke.

 

Um, Luke wasn't all-powerful in the EU either. We just got done discussing how he made major mistakes and got his ass whooped, even as the Grand Master of the Jedi Order. If anything, EU Luke is just like Yoda. He's powerful, masterful, but ultimately still mortal and flawed.

 

 

 

 

When I saw on the main page that youse posted I thought "I wonder what he's going to say on this topic. I have no idea what point of view he may enter this conversation with!"

 

Seriously. If he is just going to continue to say the same exact things over and over I think we need to go back to that thread he made about if he should keep posting and change what we said.

 

I haven't said the same exact things. The topic of Luke Skywalker in the EU versus the FU has never come up in discussion, with me or with anyone else.

 

And actually, the reason why I felt it was okay to bring this discussion up is chiefly because of the replies I got in that thread, namely where someone mentioned that my point of view is different and somewhat interesting to ponder. And to be honest, I've felt pretty welcome here regardless of the discussion at hand, or how much people disagree with it. You're one of the only jackasses that gives a different vibe.

 

 

 

Fan Fiction Luke > EU Luke

I'm glad you've read the entire EU and enough fan fiction to make that judgment call.

 

And Mara, I am disappointed.

 

So you make a whole thread asking peoples opinion of if you should stay, then someone gives you their opinion and you call them a jackass. Makes sense.

[Guest]

To be fair, there are two people who post on Nightly who aren't jackasses

[The Choc]

Yeah, but they are both jerkoffs.

[Guest]

NumberSix, sir, is a gentleman and a scholar and JediCool a true lady.

 

I don't understand why they stick around.