The Luke Problem

[Guest El Chalupacabra]

So how does this relate to Luke and his story arc in the new trilogy?

 

Anakin essentially got two trilogies, his downfall and redemption. Why not Luke?

 

In the OT, Luke's story parallel's Anakins. I think we will see that Luke does get 2 trilogies of sorts: Like Vader, Luke has two halves of his life: the OT where he is the new hope for the galaxy and redeemer of his father and in a way Obi Wan, and the ST where he is the one in need of a redemption of sorts (rebuilding the jedi order only to have it destroyed on his watch by his own nephew).

 

In the new trilogy, Luke's story parallels Obi Wans: both had apprentices that destroyed the Jedi. Both were broken and blamed themselves for the fall of the orders, and both had a path of redemption of sorts, and it is Luke's turn to train Rey, the newest hope, as Obi Wan did for Luke. By training Rey, I believe she will help redeem Luke, and help him forgive himself, and like Luke did for Obi wan, Rey will carry on Luke's work in bring back the jedi once again.

Kylo Ren's story is both an echo of Vader, and an inversion of Luke of the OT. Where Luke idolized his father Anakin, Kylo idolizes the same man, his grandfather as Vader. Where Luke starts off in ANH as innocent and fears falling to the dark side, Kylo starts off in TFA as evil, and fears falling to the light. Luke redeems and saves his father, whereas Han fails to redeem Kylo, who then kills his father. Most importantly Luke chooses to be good, while Kylo chooses to be evil, which is a complete inversion of Luke.

 

Kylo's story also differs from Anakin because Anakin\Vader's story was that of a good man who made a bad choice, became evil, but ultimately is redeemed. Anakin's and Luke's stories parallel one another, but are not total inversions of one another. Basically they are more alike except for the fateful choices Anakin makes that lead to his fall. Basically, Luke's story is what would have happened to Anakin if he had made the correct choices.

Kylo again is the inversion of that. He was a bad seed all along. Unlike Vader who was manipulated into making bad choices, turning him into a villain, Kylo has always been a villain, consciously resisting the pull of the light.

[ShadowDog]

I wonder if ... like Luke in ESB ... Ben will learn some uncomfortable truths about Vadar in 7.

 

Luke: Snoke never told you the truth about Vadar.

 

Ben: He told me enough!

 

Luke: Vadar was actually a whiny little bitch.

 

Ben: NOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!

 

Also somebody mentioned "Luke's advanced age" isn't he like 53 or so? That's still prime time for a Jedi.

[Poe Dameron]

Also somebody mentioned "Luke's advanced age" isn't he like 53 or so? That's still prime time for a Jedi.

 

Luke sure as heck doesn't look 53. Neither does Leia. It seems to have been a pretty rough 30 years for all the characters. Except Chewie apparently. He hasn't changed a bit since Yoda said goodbye to him in Revenge of the Sith.

 

It would be awesome if Billy Dee Williams shows up and, even pushing 80, is still the same old Lando charmer, hitting up both Leia and Rey.

[ShadowDog]

That would be awesome.

 

I guess mofos age faster in this universe. Look at OB1 from ROTS to ANH. Jesus, dude.

[Mara Jade Skywalker]

Who cares if Rey "earned" her power or not? She's strong in the Force. End of story. I didn't realize she had to pass a test to have that innate ability.

 

It's not like she's going to skip straight from scavenger to Jedi Master. She went to Luke to be trained. She's raw and her skills need to be honed.

[Driver]

People can't wrap their head around Rey simply because they use Luke's progress as a barometer, refusing to see that she is potentially stronger than Luke.

[Odine]

Because like, Luke's week or so of training makes all the difference.

[Darth Krawlie]

Inb4 we don't know how long he was on dagobah or what happens between ESB and ROTJ

[RamonAtila]

Kylo Ren: definitely my favorite character in TFA.

 

My feelings are similar to Poes. Personally, I think the problem wasn't so much Kylo being bested in the first one, but Rey being so good against him in the first one. Where did she and Finn suddenly get these skills for swordplay and do so well against Kylo who has so much more experience. I think you guys are playing up the fact that he was injured a little too much.

 

I think the reason things turned out the way they did is because Kylos story is one we haven't seen before in the saga and they wanted to make this trilogy stand out on its own. Although I really feel similar to Poe, Im going with you guyses Inversion of Luke theory to rationalize it in my head. Although I don't wanna see him kill Snoke. Weve seen that. Make him fight til the bitter end and die for the dark side, I say.

[RamonAtila]

Look at OB1 from ROTS to ANH. Jesus, dude.

To rationalize this in my head I tell myself people age faster from all that hyperdrive.

[Mara Jade Skywalker]

Where did she and Finn suddenly get these skills for swordplay and do so well against Kylo who has so much more experience. I think you guys are playing up the fact that he was injured a little too much.

 

Finn lasted about thirty seconds against Kylo, and only that long because Kylo was injured and Finn was angry and out for revenge.

[Lord Darth Hunter]

 

It would be awesome if Billy Dee Williams shows up and, even pushing 80, is still the same old Lando charmer, hitting up both Leia and Rey.

On Rey? That would just be pervy creepy.

[Poe Dameron]

Who cares if Rey "earned" her power or not? She's strong in the Force. End of story. I didn't realize she had to pass a test to have that innate ability.

Yes, it was "End of story". That's the problem. She went from scavenger to out-matching someone in the Skywalker line with zero training outside of a barkeep's advise

 

It was a silly mistake and the basis for the whole Mary Sue charge. It cheapened Rey, it cheapened Kylo Ren, it cheapens Luke's struggles in the last trilogy, and ultimately cheapens the value of being a Jedi at all.

[Mara Jade Skywalker]

A Skywalker who was injured, who wasn't fully trained, who was extremely emotionally compromised....

 

Rey is stronger in the Force than Kylo. That let her defeat him when the scales were tipped against him. I'll never understand why people can't accept that.

[Poe Dameron]

 

I'll never understand why people can't accept that.

 

Because it was silly. It went beyond suspension of disbelief.

 

The whole third act was a mess of bad decisions and the movie undercutting itself at every opportunity. You're protective of Rey because she's a girl, when she didn't need it to be a good character and a fitting main hero going forward.

 

Driver is trying to give it credit that it's building to something more, but the third act of this movie proves that the writers forgot how to build threats to be overcome. This is the same movie that had Han glibly ask where the weak point on Starkiller Base was. Where they solved the super difficult problems of shutting down the shield and finding Rey each without any effort. Where they kept taking timeouts from the countdown so there was almost no tension whatsoever in the Resistance being blown up.

 

Think we need to face the strong possibility that Kasdan and Abrams just blew this whole aspect of the story. They overpowered Rey because they wanted an easy happy ending to the first movie.

[The Choc]

Yes "we" do as in you, as you are in the great minority.

[Poe Dameron]

Please come up with a better retort than the mob disagreeing. Mobs aren't particularly well-known for their nuanced views on cinematic craftsmanship.

[The Choc]

You talk as if you speak for everyone, which simply isn't true. Plus I'm sure everyone here appreciates being called part of a mob who can't understand nuanced views on cinematic craftmanship.

[Driver]

Please come up with a better retort than the mob disagreeing. Mobs aren't particularly well-known for their nuanced views on cinematic craftsmanship.

I've given several over many threads. Don't act like those whom disagree with you don't have any defense just because you dismiss what they say. Star Wars isn't known for nuance. It's grand sweeping myth. Everyone is a Mary Sue, Rey is no different. Every main character in Star Wars is amazing at everything save for one big fault.

 

Luke was impatient. Han was self absorbed. Leia was cold. Obi-Wan loved Anakin. Anakin was a douche nozzle. Finn let his fear control him. Rey was holding up her own life waiting for her parents to come and find her.

 

If you consider that Rey is a Skywalker, and that each generation of Skywalker is more powerful than the last, there's nothing out of line with what she does. She hasn't faced her big challenge yet.

 

Similarly, Kylo is powerful, but not in control. He also has a lot to learn.

 

You keep saying everything was too big and final with them in TFA when you don't know what the plan is for 8 and 9. That makes your statements ill-informed.

[The Choc]

Star Wars is about those big moments that wow you more than anything else. For most people, the moments where Rey first knowingly uses the Force to get inside Kylo's head, the moment where she uses the mind trick and it works, the moment where the saber goes to her, the moment where she closes her eyes and then uses the Force to take on Kylo are great moments. They make us smile. JJ said that when writing the script his first job was to make it delightful, that him and Kasdan looked at nearly every scene and wanted it to delight them. Those scenes with Rey delight the vast majority of people who saw the movie. If they didn't for you, that sucks.

[Poe Dameron]

You talk as if you speak for everyone, which simply isn't true. Plus I'm sure everyone here appreciates being called part of a mob who can't understand nuanced views on cinematic craftmanship.

It's your argument that more people means you're right, not mine. You use an argumentum ad populum, you're going to get called on it.

 

Acting as though I insulted everyone who disagrees with me is just you, again, arguing in bad faith. And, worse, now trying to gin up a mob to punish me. Just accept that I disagree.

 

 

 

I've given several over many threads. Don't act like those whom disagree with you don't have any defense just because you dismiss what they say.

 

I didn't. I dismissed the idea that many people believing something makes it true.

 

 

 

You keep saying everything was too big and final with them in TFA when you don't know what the plan is for 8 and 9. That makes your statements ill-informed.

 

As I said, the mistakes they were making simply within The Force Awakens tells me that had a poor handle on the concepts that you're giving them the benefit of the doubt on.

 

We've got to wait for the next couple of episodes. But I doubt your theory that Rey and Kylo Ren go on parallel journeys into the Light and Dark is correct. I'd bet money that Kylo Ren remains a conflicted figure.

[Driver]

I wasn't making the majority rules argument this time. That was somebody else.

 

In multiple threads, I've used Campbell, classic myth, western narrative and repeated Star Wars references to make my point about Rey. You've just basically said "nu-uh" and "It didn't work" without giving any tangible reasons why beyond that you didn't like it.

 

And Kylo Ren can remain conflicted, that doesn't mean he'll get less dark. Darth Vader was conflicted and the conflict won. That didn't make him less of a villain.

 

I'm certainly willing to admit I am giving TFA the benefit of the doubt and I may not be right about the direction they take-- but I don't think it's as unlikely as you say it is... but that might be just because you really dig disagreeing with most of the stuff I say and really want me to be wrong since I'm such a pompous know-it-all.

[The Choc]

No, my argument wasn't that because the majority of people agree with me I'm right. My argument was simply that you don't speak for most people. The way you said "think we need to ..." is like saying when you have an outdoor party planned "we may need to accept that it's going to rain".

 

That was what I was saying, you spoke matter of factly. Like what you were saying is that generally accepted fact. All I was saying is that you aren't speaking for everyone, or even for most people. Not that you were wrong because you are in the minority. You are wrong for other reasons, but not simply for being in the minority.

[Poe Dameron]

 

In multiple threads, I've used Campbell, classic myth, western narrative and repeated Star Wars references to make my point about Rey. You've just basically said "nu-uh" and "It didn't work" without giving any tangible reasons why beyond that you didn't like it.

 

I don't understand what more tangible reasons I need beyond her empowerment coming without struggle, and how it cheapens the struggles of all the other characters. Yes, the other characters are strong in their own rights, but Rey's leap was exceptional even within Star Wars and didn't really build on anything. It just happened. I know that's not normal for a classic Campbell hero. You've already noted that she far surpasses the Luke measuring stick.

 

The problem isn't that she's powerful. It could have even happened fairly quickly if we were given a reason. But it just comes out of nowhere and has the feel of matured controlled power, not a neophyte tapping into something out of instinct (as Luke and Anakin were portrayed in their early days). Within the world we've been presented, Rey's breaking the rules.

 

As for Kylo Ren, we'll have to see where he goes. My own view that they compromised him because they have no intention of ever making him the epitome of evil actually gives the writers more credit than yours, because I really don't see how Kylo Ren can ever be the threat he was at the beginning of the film now that they've done this to him.

 

The whole film seems to be a continual peeling away of the menace that showed up to slaughter the village in Jakku. It just seems strange that they'll turn around and build him right back up again in the next film.

 

 

I wasn't making the majority rules argument this time. That was somebody else.

 

I know. I wasn't accusing you of that. But I don't believe it was fair for you to say I was acting dismissively of your opinions.

 

 

but that might be just because you really dig disagreeing with most of the stuff I say and really want me to be wrong since I'm such a pompous know-it-all.

 

I really wish you'd stop saying stuff like that. I've never said an unkind word towards you, but you've insulted yourself on my behalf at least half a dozen times.

 

 

The way you said "think we need to ..." is like saying when you have an outdoor party planned "we may need to accept that it's going to rain".

 

Is there anything positive that will come from continuing to discuss a nosism? It's just a rhetorical flourish.

[Guest El Chalupacabra]

 

 

I'll never understand why people can't accept that.

 

Because it was silly. It went beyond suspension of disbelief.

 

The whole third act was a mess of bad decisions and the movie undercutting itself at every opportunity. You're protective of Rey because she's a girl, when she didn't need it to be a good character and a fitting main hero going forward.

 

Driver is trying to give it credit that it's building to something more, but the third act of this movie proves that the writers forgot how to build threats to be overcome. This is the same movie that had Han glibly ask where the weak point on Starkiller Base was. Where they solved the super difficult problems of shutting down the shield and finding Rey each without any effort. Where they kept taking timeouts from the countdown so there was almost no tension whatsoever in the Resistance being blown up.

 

Think we need to face the strong possibility that Kasdan and Abrams just blew this whole aspect of the story. They overpowered Rey because they wanted an easy happy ending to the first movie.

Well, I see what you are saying. On paper, Rey shouldn't have beat Ren, but like I and others said, Kylo had a lot of things to contend with, that all worked against him.

Rather than thinking of Kylo as the "New Vader," I personally think of him as the "Anti-Luke," and as such, his training is incomplete like Luke's was in ANH and TESB. Kylo is not the "big bad" at this point. Snoke is. Up until now, Kylo has had it easy, because there wasn't anyone powerful enough to stand against him (aside from Luke, who was in hiding). Along comes Rey, who might not have the training he has, but has the potential he has, if not more. Add to the fact that like I said, he was wounded (bow caster was shown to be powerful earlier in the movie), and had just wasted Han. The guy was a physical and emotional wreck. He should have not even done as well as he did.

 

I understand what you are saying that Kylo's been taken down a notch, and his defeat could hurt his appearance as a "big bad," but until we see Episode 8, I think that is a little early to say. It amy very well be the case, if not written well, but we may see that Kylo has become a monster to his fullest potential.

 

And if that is not enough, then my last post

 

Poe, its also worth noting that like Kylo, Darth Vader was also defeated in the first act (the end of ANH), too. Vader was ringed out by Han, and Luke then blew up the Death Star. That is as major a set back as it gets, but it didn't make Vader any less of a threat in TESB. It actually made him more of a threat in TESB when you think about it, because he was obsessed with crushing the rebels and finding Luke. He pwned Luke in Bespin. So, applying your logic that because Kylo Ren was stopped by Rey means he isn't a credible threat doesn't ring true. If anything, Kylo will be more dangerous. I am betting (hoping) Kylo is trained by Snoke, and when he learns all he can, he kills Snoke.

Hope that helps some.