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The Luke Problem


Darth Ender
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I read an article recently that one issue Arndt had when writing the E7 script is Luke. Arndt stated that whenever Luke was inserted into the script he took over. Once Luke enters into the narrative, I want him to be a total badass. This is certainly not a knock against the new characters, because they are great and I can see them having a central storyline. However, If Luke is supposedly this awesome Jedi, I don't want him to see him in (just) a mentor/ supportive role. I can't imagine the supposed savior of the Jedi letting Rey and company do the work but at the same time we have a new set of young protagonists to save the day.

 

So how do you think Disney will handle this?

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Guest El Chalupacabra

Well, I think one way to handle it is Luke has suffered some sort of injury, along with his age just catching up to him. I know that doesn't square with Yoda being able to jump around like Sonic the Hedgehog at the spry old age of 900, but by the time most people reach their mid 60s, they've long since past their prime. We can pretty much just blame the PT for making the jedi seem like a bunch of superfriends, but think of it this way. Obi Wan was long past his prime by ANH, and having lived on Tatooine for 20 years took its toll. We aren't clear yet on how long Luke was in hiding, but the planet he was found on at the end of TFA (I believe it is called Ahch-To?) looked like it could have been a pretty harsh place to live, and may have taken a similar toll on Luke.

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I just want to say that I think Arndt choked. Everything I've heard about his script sounds terrible. The above statement is silly because by that very same logic Han Solo could have done the exact same thing, and yet, while he certainly was at the center of the action, it in no way took away from Rey and/or Finn's stories. And in some ways it enhanced them.

 

I don't think Arndt was able to keep his fanboy in check.

 

Han in TFA, Obi-Wan in ANH, Henry Sr. in Last Crusade, Merlin in Excaliber... there's plenty examples of badass mentors who can be the central drive to the story without it being THEIR story.

 

That's how they handle it. We already got Luke's story, now we get Rey's. He can be there-- he can be a badass, he can be central to the plot, he can be the leader-- but the lessons to be learned, the character arc to follow, and the ultimate denouement will not be his.

 

And yeah, he'll probably die.

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All true. But another way to handle it is give Luke his own mission only he can handle. Maybe he seeks out Snoke in his dark fortress and takes him out, leaving Ben for Rey.

 

The mentor dying is SUCH a cliche I would love to see it subverted with this series. Not because I'm a Luke fanboy but just tired of the cliche.

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Disney Luke is a pansy. So he had a student turn to the dark side. So he gives up teaching the Force and goes into hiding because of it? EU Luke, on the other hand, knew that falling to the dark side was always a danger to someone learning the ways of the Force, and despite having at least three students (including his own nephew) fall, he persevered, as did his other students.

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Guest El Chalupacabra

Disney Luke is a pansy. So he had a student turn to the dark side. So he gives up teaching the Force and goes into hiding because of it? EU Luke, on the other hand, knew that falling to the dark side was always a danger to someone learning the ways of the Force, and despite having at least three students (including his own nephew) fall, he persevered, as did his other students.

EU Luke fell to the dark side, too, though. EU Luke also went into self-exile, after being kicked out of the order he started. Jacen Solo didn't have the excuse of "having too much Vader in him, either," further illustrating the mega fail EU "Grand Master" Luke was.

 

TFA Luke, rather than just give up, was actually trying to find old records in the original jedi order temple to consult them, and presumably see how the original jedi order prevented newbies from falling to the dark side, since Palpatine did such a thorough job of destroying all the records. TFA Luke actually LEARNED from his mistake, and was smart enough to try not to repeat it! :)

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I just want to say that I think Arndt choked. Everything I've heard about his script sounds terrible. The above statement is silly because by that very same logic Han Solo could have done the exact same thing, and yet, while he certainly was at the center of the action, it in no way took away from Rey and/or Finn's stories. And in some ways it enhanced them.

 

I don't think Arndt was able to keep his fanboy in check.

 

Han in TFA, Obi-Wan in ANH, Henry Sr. in Last Crusade, Merlin in Excaliber... there's plenty examples of badass mentors who can be the central drive to the story without it being THEIR story.

 

That's how they handle it. We already got Luke's story, now we get Rey's. He can be there-- he can be a bad-ass, he can be central to the plot, he can be the leader-- but the lessons to be learned, the character arc to follow, and the ultimate denouement will not be his.

 

And yeah, he'll probably die.

I do hope Luke gets his own story arc. I am sure the next two films will be well done, but I am just so tired of the mentor dying trope. I just think that if Snoke is nothing more than the next guy up, Luke sacrifices himself, Kylo turns to the light, etc....I think Disney will have dropped the ball.

 

I disagree about Han. I don't mean takes over as in taking away from Ray and company. Rather I mean Luke physically takes over because he is so powerful. Han was the natural choice for a OT character to be most involved in TFA plot and he isn't that powerful with physical/ force dominance like Luke is. For example, if Luke confronted Kylo rather than Han, it is game over for Kylo.

 

With all that said, I have faith in Disney. Luke survives this trilogy.

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I don't think Arndt was able to keep his fanboy in check.

Agreed. Yes, Luke Skywalker casts quite the shadow, but shoot, so does Han. I wouldn't even start to count the number of times I've heard a character described as "the Han Solo" of the film or show over the years.

 

But if Adonis Creed can play the lead role in a movie co-starring Rocky Balboa, Rey could have fangirled her way around Luke Skywalker for awhile before getting down to business.

 

Oh, and I would wager Luke doesn't die until the beginning of Episode X. They've already satisfied their icon murder boner for this trilogy. The refractory period should keep Luke around for a bit.

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Guest El Chalupacabra

It's not about cliche or icon murder boner, its about the main character needing to be stripped of her support system and succeeding on her own.

Not every character needs to be the last/new/only hope. Why can't Rey succeed in her mission and live up to her destiny, and Luke succeed in live up to his (establishing the order again) without Luke dying? Rey can be the Obi Wan to Luke's Yoda.

 

I am all for this being a Rey trilogy, but Luke doesn't need to die to make her accomplishment any more meaningful. I mean if he does, he does, but it is not necessary.

 

Besides, unless Mark Hamill just totally does a crap job at acting in Episode 8, why WOULD Disney want to write Luke out, and not make Episodes 10-12, or spin off movies with Luke in them? Would be a bad business move. Harrison Ford agreed to kill of Han because he was done with the character, and has more money than God. Mark Hammil, on the other hand, probably would love to do as many Star Wars movies that Disney is willing to throw at him.

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Guest El Chalupacabra

I don't know about Luke mopping the floor with Ben. Luke has "Old Man Strength" it's true but Ben has the fire and vigor of youth and rage.

 

I agree about the Dead Pool.

Yeah, we are all basing the idea of Luke being all powerful off of EU Luke, anyway. No where is it established that Luke is all powerful in the movies. He certainly wasn't in ROTJ. Actually, I LIKE the idea of Luke being defeatable. Just because he is strong with the force, and a Jedi master, doesn't make him invincible. Yoda, Mace, and Obi Wan certainly weren't. Even Anakin/Vader, or the Emperor for that matter.

 

Not to mention when we saw the (at the time) the most powerful Jedi fight in AOTC and ROTS, the Yoda/Dooku & Yoda/Palaptine fights, they weren't exactly all they were cracked up to be.

 

I say keep Luke wise and powerful, but also with the possibility he can lose and isn't a given he will mop the floor with Kylo Ren, or Snoke.

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Maybe the thing to do is to make him ill. Something Force related. The guilt, the shame, and the weight of the galaxy have taken their toll on him. After all, the guy brought down Vader and Palp only to lead his own nephew to the dark side. Perhaps these issues will be enough to handicap him, because otherwise he would be a Supermanish godlike character, and you can't do much with that.

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I'd be cool having Luke survive, just saying these kinds of stories always have the heroes support system die. And I don't think it's cliche, I think it's an important part of the heroes journey. Usually the mentor dies, but is still able to help the hero in some way.

 

Obi Wan comes back as a ghost to help Luke

 

Dumbledore is still able to advise Harry

 

Gandalf actually comes back to life and helps Frodo from afar, with Frodo thinking he is dead.

 

 

Ofcourse, Luke could survive. Hell if they are already planning X-XII they could have the bad guys "win" this trilogy.

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Ofcourse, Luke could survive. Hell if they are already planning X-XII they could have the bad guys "win" this trilogy.

 

They didn't even have the balls to have the bad guys win Episode VII when Rey SHOULD have been defeated by Kylo Ren. No way can they pull that trigger at the end of the trilogy.

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The main job of the first movie is to be fun and have characters people like, so that the audience cares what happens to them going forward. Which I think was very much accomplished.

 

As far as the trilogy ending with the bad guys winning, it could easily happen. I mean if they are only going to wait a short time to make Episode X then it's really not that big of a deal. They could have IX come out in 2019, then take a short break filling the gap with the Star Wars Story movies and then say have X come out in like 2023 or something. Could easily have only 4 years pass in real time but say that 10 years have passed in story.

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When I saw on the main page that youse posted I thought "I wonder what he's going to say on this topic. I have no idea what point of view he may enter this conversation with!"

 

Seriously. If he is just going to continue to say the same exact things over and over I think we need to go back to that thread he made about if he should keep posting and change what we said.

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The main job of the first movie is to be fun and have characters people like, so that the audience cares what happens to them going forward. Which I think was very much accomplished.

 

Kylo Ren has disarmed Rey after she rejected his offer to train her and launched into one final suicide attack. She's laying in the snow next to Finn. Kylo Ren stands over her, his lightsaber buzzing, only inches from her face.

 

Kylo Ren:

You are not ready.

(Lightsaber is disengaged.)

Seek me out when you are.

The planet splits open between them, separating Kylo Ren from Rey.

 

Entertaining enough?

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Guest El Chalupacabra

I think we need to start a Star Wars dead pool for Episodes 8 & 9.

You know, I would like to start one. Is there a way we can pin it because even Rogue One is pretty far off?

 

I think we can do something like list the character you think will die, how they will die, who will kill them, and in which movie. We could even include Star Wars Rebels since its ongoing, just list season instead.

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