Did TFA diminish the significance of the previous Star Wars films?

[the trumpet player 2]

I take films seriously, just as I take art seriously. It's my profession.

[The Choc]

Movies are meant to distract us from the things we actually should take seriously.

[the trumpet player 2]

Not all movies are intended with the same purpose. Some are just popcorn flicks, some are meant to scare us, some are made to enlighten us etc... Some people take them seriously, some don't, you usually find the latter are the ones who like movies with a cheap and easy appeal. I'm not accusing anyone in here, I'm just saying, that's how it usually goes.

[The Choc]

I wouldn't take anything as an accusation, your opinion on movies is just that your opinion of movies. It doesn't say anything about you.

[Odine]

I gotta say, I find it hard to believe that you find the artistry and entertainment value of the PT superior to that of TFA. To me that does a lot to discredit your opinion. The writing of the PT was clunky, uninteresting and unnecessarily convoluted. Not to mention filled with apauling dialogue and character relationships that are about as deep as a puddle.

The artistry of TFA, while perhaps not "high art" (but FFS is any of Star Wars high art!?) is far superior to that of the PT. And despite your claims that technical knowledge is secondary to artistic "vision" I would say it is essential as a supplement to artistic vision. The cinematography alone is evidence of this.

 

Take the treatment of force premonitions for example, in the PT (I forget which episode) we see Anakin asleep in a silky bed with an awkward constipated expression on his face tossing and turning in his sleep. We are to assume he is having more traumatic visions of the future. The whole scene is clunky as hell, poorly acted and conceived. Who wants to see a Jedi asleep in bed FFS?

 

By contrast the depiction of the force premonitions and halloucenations Rey has in the cellar with the sabre (whether you like the writing or not of a saber triggering visions) the power of the force is TANGIBLE in that scene. It is beautifully handled, it feels psychedelic, traumatic and wonderful at the same time. In fact it was the first time any of the films really made the force seem like a daunting amazing metaphysical and psychological phenomenon. It was awesome. The artistry of that scene takes a big steaming dump on any "artistry" in scenes that attempted anything similar in the PT.

 

But whatevs, great if you enjoyed the PT. Just lay off the attacks on artistry, cause there is more to marvel at in TFA than there was in the entire PT.

[ShadowDog]

Which is why I tapped out after one attempt to lead him out of the dark woods. It's intentional trolling because he's pissed off it was actually good.

 

LMAO.

 

Theres a fan on youtube who did a review, who begins by saying he can't understand why fans jump on him for not liking the film, there are people who accuse him of not being a true fan because he doesn't like it. Some of the fan mentality is absurd and just plain dumb... and now I get accused of trolling for a sharing a valid opinion that a critic (and not a so called fan would have ?). I'm a fan, not a critic, but I do have a critical mind, as do many Star Wars fans outside of this little contained world known as nightly.net.

 

 

You say I'm pissed off because the film was actually good ? You may think it was good but I don't, that's my real honest opinion and I've pointed out many reasons why I think this way. I don't go out of my way to be different than everyone else. You think it's good, fine. I don't. Millions of people think it's good, fine. It means nothing to me. Millions of people think Kanye West is a musical genius... fine. I don't.

I'm not saying you're pissed off because you shared an opinion. I made that statement because you're intentionally misunderstanding what fan fiction is to troll us.

[Lord Darth Hunter]

and we all know the real reason Han Solo had to die, not to give the film some balls as JJ put it, but because he has no balls to say no.

Lol! I like this one. When Han got offed by Kylo, the first thing that came to my head was, so that's why Harrison Ford was doing the rounds at the conventions and being all ra ra about the new movie after so many years of rolling his eyes and being the grumpy high and mighty actor anytime anyone brought up the subject of Star Wars. He finally got his wish.

[Quetzalcoatl]

One of those amateur youtube conspiracy videos had a theory that might slot into the monomyth aspect, though I doubt this where they are headed with it, Rey is the reincarnation of Anakin Skywalker, come back to properly complete the Chosen One's journey. That might explain the state of the galaxy after RoTJ.

 

I like that! If this were done, the new trilogy would be absorbed into Anakin's monomyth story. It would still be one big story about the chosen-one! Not expecting it to actually happen, but that's exactly the kind of thing I think these movies need to unify them with what's come before. Also, nobody is a failure that way. The galaxy is still in the process of being healed. It just didn't happen instantly like the ROTJ ending suggests.

[Quetzalcoatl]

Sure I can see why some people love it and how it is an improvement in some areas over the prequels, (acting / dialogue) and yes, miniatures and practical effects do look better than dated CGI but what about story ? Script ? Originality ? Ideas ? It was devoid of anything that made Star Wars really great. I can't think of a single film that created so many iconic characters and things that just looked so Iconic.... I can't think of one thing in this new film.​

 

This pretty much sums up my feelings as well. One thing about TFA that doesn't sit well with me is that it felt like Abrams was reluctant to change the traditional SW format, and wanted to keep everything the same. We still have an empire, a rebellion, a massive planet-destroying weapon, Han is still a smuggler, etc. A good story should allow for evolution. The Star Wars films have always been progressive, but what Abrams has done is revert the SW galaxy to the state we originally found it in, and that is a slap in the face to the victory of our heroes in ROTJ. The movie doesn't break new ground. It's all stuff we've seen before and I suspect that this "traditionalist" approach that Disney has taken was due in large part to the backlash the prequels took due to it not having the same tone as the OT. They were hesitant to try something new, and so instead focused on delivering those warm fuzzies that the fans didn't get from the prequels. From a business standpoint, I guess that makes sense. But from an artistic standpoint, it lacks integrity. There is a difference between a fan and a customer. True art should never be motivated by what an artist thinks the public is expecting. Just because Stephen King has racked up a huge fan base, should he be at their whim? Does he have to do market research so he can give his stories the endings the fans want? Was it wrong that Shakespear or Mozart didn't consult with their audiences first and get their approval before proceeding with their creations? I don't understand the sense of entitlement that seems to go along with being the fan of a franchise.

 

As movies, the prequels were very flawed. There is no disputing that they could have been better executed. But what I see in those films is an attempt to do more than entertain, but to tell a meaningful story about the human condition. Whether Lucas succeeded in his attempt may be questionable, but the attempt was there. All I see in TFA is an attempt to recreate that SW "feeling" so as to give fans their long overdue SW fix. The entire movie seemed geared toward capturing what the OT did and deliver more of that, all for the purpose of gratifying the customer. Hence the reason why it was full of OT sensibilities (storm-troopers, star destroyers, heroes in x-wings fighting an evil empire, etc.), to the point where it defied logic. That youtube video posted earlier makes a good point. Where was the Republic's army? Why did the Republic have to rely on a small resistance movement to fight the first order, outside of the fact this is what was happening in the OT? When you really stop to think about it, none of it makes any sense. I really wanted to like this movie. I honestly tried to. But I can't just turn my brain off and ignore these massive problems just because the movie is "fun."

[Driver]

Normally, all things considered, I agree that "fun" isn't enough. I full understand your problems with TFA, and don't disagree with them. But I do get why they chose to do this-- they had to reset Star Wars. That new bold direction should, and frankly better, happen with Episode 8. If it doesn't, I'm going to be pretty let down.

 

But the "fun" and knowing they did this intentionally worked on me. I think this movie was for people like me-- people who grew up with the OT who were so let down the by the PT and EU that this was a homecoming of sorts. I needed these feels, and obviously, if box office is evidence, I'm not alone.

[the trumpet player 2]

I remember picking up 'Heir to the Empire' when I was 17 years old and I really enjoyed it. The sequel was even better but the third was a let down. During my first year at university more books came out, some of them where ridiculous but all of them seemed more original than TFA. Like Quetzalcoatl posted above, TFA was devoid of creativity and it was pure fan service. As a writer (in my opinion) the priorety should be to serve the story and the characters (not the fans) and I felt this film was tailor made for the latter..

 

I thought no matter how bad the film may be I would get a kick out of seeing Han and Chewie back in the Falcon, but it was sad to see that Han (in his 70's) had gone back to being a smuggler. It was cool in his thirties, but not at that age, it was a pretty sad sight to see. I remember in the Timothy Zahn novels he was working with the Republic and he was sent on a mission to convince the underworld (smugglers) to work in their favour, it was a pretty solid idea, then he teamed up with Lando in the second book and went off on a mission which I thought was another great idea and I enjoyed it.... Anyway, those are just my own personal feelings, but now with Han gone what is the point in keeping Chewie or bringing Lando into it. I just see so much lost potential, the same as I did with the PT.

 

The new characters are not doing it for me either, Poe Dameron kick starts the whole film, going on this vitally important mission, then he just abandons it and turns up much later ? Where is the logic in that ? I couldn't stand John Boyega, he was just the funny black side kick you stick in there for laughs (but I didn't find him to be funny at all). Rey was just too conveniently good at everything and she always had this annoying intense look on her face.

 

I'm in two minds whether to go and see it again, part of me wants to, to try and enjoy it, but I just know deep down I don't think I could ever like this film. It even had the worst soundtrack of all Star Wars films so far, and that really is an important part of Star Wars.

[Mara Jade Skywalker]

I have better things to do than nitpick, but I can't resist...

 

 

I remember picking up 'Heir to the Empire' when I was 17 years old and I really enjoyed it. The sequel was even better but the third was a let down. During my first year at university more books came out, some of them where ridiculous but all of them seemed more original than TFA.

 

 

Why would you want "original", crappy books like The Crystal Star instead of a well-made, fun, albeit throwback movie like TFA? Original doesn't equal good. Crucible was original and that was the worst piece of crap the EU ever produced. No wonder I'm sort of glad the EU is gone.

 

 

I thought no matter how bad the film may be I would get a kick out of seeing Han and Chewie back in the Falcon, but it was sad to see that Han (in his 70's) had gone back to being a smuggler.

 

 

Did you miss the part where Han said "We both dealt with it in our own way. I went back to the only thing I was good at."? It's supposed to be sad.

 

Also, as soon as the Resistance needed him, he jumped right back in.

 

 

 

The new characters are not doing it for me either, Poe Dameron kick starts the whole film, going on this vitally important mission, then he just abandons it and turns up much later ?

 

 

How did Poe abandon the mission? He woke up, Finn wasn't there. He probably went to town, tried to find BB-8, but couldn't. What else was he going to do, stay on Jakku forever? No, he found a way to get off the planet and go back to the Resistance base. When he shows up later, he's on a mission to retrieve BB-8 from Takodana.

 

 

I couldn't stand John Boyega, he was just the funny black side kick you stick in there for laughs (but I didn't find him to be funny at all).

 

 

I'm not even going to touch this with a ten foot pole.

 

 

Rey was just too conveniently good at everything and she always had this annoying intense look on her face.

 

 

She grew up in the freaking desert. If she wasn't good at things, she'd die. Why is that so hard for people to understand?

 

 

It even had the worst soundtrack of all Star Wars films so far, and that really is an important part of Star Wars.

 

 

On the contrary, it has the most layered soundtrack of all the films and I'm still picking things out after listening to it for almost a month.

 

[Metropolis]

The EU isn't gone. It's just moved in a different direction.

[Guest]

I'm still going with the entire EU being Luke's alternate history fiction. Being a hermit means lots of time to write about how your son would be better than Leia's son.

[Justus]

 

1. In TFA, however, we notice that the galaxy isn't appreciably better off as a result of this. The First Order has picked up where the Empire has left off.

 

 

 

2.In Rey, we have a much needed feminine version of the monomyth, although Leia's story kind of goes that way also. The idea of a feminine yin to counterbalance the masuline yang is, I think, essential to the concepts of balance, "balance of the force" as the prophecy said.

 

 

3.The threat to the galaxy did not die with the Emperor

 

 

1. ..and you don't find that a major example of poor writing looking for a retread, quickie antagonist group which goes against the logic of a defeated government not turning around, simply changing its name and essentially being as galaxy-spanning as the first version? That alone renders the OT & its story of the Rebellion struggle a complete failure.

 

Nevermind the unbelievable rise of said galaxy-spanning government in less than three decades. That has no real world parallel in the modern era (and it should, as a point of familiarity for the audience), so it comes off as convenient, BS for a story that had no purpose, other than to drag SW before cameras again for another buck.

 

2. What you suggest leans in the direction of social engineering of the kind embraced by certain members of this forum--and that has nothing to do with GL's concept of restoring balance to the Force. Gender is irrelevant in achieving that goal. Salvation or balance is not filtered through the Equal Opportunity Office of Galactic Affairs.

 

3.

Where balancing the Force is concerned, the threat ended with the death of the Sith in ROTJ--at least, according to GL.

[Justus]

 

Did you miss the part where Han said "We both dealt with it in our own way. I went back to the only thing I was good at."? It's supposed to be sad.

 

 

 

 

Which is bull****. Han evolved over the course of the OT to find another calling as a responsible person--and leader in the Rebellion. Having him return to being a criminal rips that evolution to pieces because TFA writers were incapable of crafting a mature story of Han being around and dealing with personal troubles---with his wife

[Exodus]

Loss can do that to you. It can take years of development as an individual, years of development in a relationship with a partner, years of turning over a new leaf...and over time, or even in a instant depending on the trigger point, can obliterate everything and put you back at square one - or even further back than that.

[Mara Jade Skywalker]

I have a friend who lost a child at 36 weeks. She and her husband are still together, but many other loss couples she knows are not. Losing a kid is a huge reason married couples separate or get divorced. Couple the severity of Kylo's betrayal and Luke's disappearance and it's not surprising at all.

[Guest]

Especially when combined with what Leia was saying - it sounded to me like, while Ben was younger, she was effectively saying that Han wasn't capable of being the father he needed because he wasn't a Jedi.

 

So, imagine: your wife keeps saying that you're not an adequate father. You've walked away from your old life. Then your son is gone, and has killed innocent people - possibly/likely even children. Dude's going to be messed up and run from everything. He thinks that he's a failure, whether that's true or not.

[Odine]

Plus like... Being a smuggler is not a REAL criminal anyway. I got admonished in another thread for saying smugglers are like space pirates.. When in fact they are the equivalent of intergalactic jaywalkers. (Supposedly).

 

Not sayin I beleive that, but either way Han returning to being a smuggler is not a regression, or lazy writing, improbable OR a slap in the face of his character arc. I thought it worked well and was handled maturely too. Old guy doing a young mans game is a tough thing to pull off.

[ShadowDog]

What's not to believe? It's not a religion you either believe in or don't, we're talking about facts here.

 

Pirates: murder, kidnapping, pillaging, raping

 

Smugglers: transporting goods that some government has arbitrarily decided are bad.

 

Are you really telling me one's as bad as the other?

[Guest]

Depends on what's being smuggled.

 

And do we know that Han was actually smuggling in TFA?

[Driver]

The Rathars were sex slaves.

[Odine]

What's not to believe? It's not a religion you either believe in or don't, we're talking about facts here.

 

Pirates: murder, kidnapping, pillaging, raping

 

Smugglers: transporting goods that some government has arbitrarily decided are bad.

 

Are you really telling me one's as bad as the other?

What fozzie said. Depends on the cargo.

 

IRL, im pretty sure the people smuggling heroin into Europea from Afghanistan via Russia are pretty ruthless badass. (not in a good way). Likewise people who smuggle humans into other countries by charging extortionate amounts for 'safe passage' which is little more than a crate on board a container ship are also scumbags, who probably get up to all sorts of other forms of piracy.

 

Smuggling/Piracy are not too far apart.

 

And essentially all pirates were were Privateers who traded in goods that were contraband, as well as jacking the cargo from other vessels and selling it themselves. Which Im sure the Han in question would not be above doing himself.

[ShadowDog]

True enough, depends on WHAT they smuggle.

 

Meanwhile, murder, rape, pillaging, and kidnapping are ALWAYS bad things.