Did TFA diminish the significance of the previous Star Wars films?

[Cerina]

Maybe some of these should be explained a little more if that is the case. Everyone is saying how well this is a set up for the next two films, it shouldn't be about that, it should work as a film in it's own right, sure it should leave questions open, but more importantly it should serve the older characters in way's that to me, this film did not.

 

I also find it hard to believe that Han Solo and Leia are deadbeat parents (especially Han), it makes them much less likeable to me. Why was Han not out searching for their son ? If he had stayed with the resistance as a general he would have had all those resources. It would have made it far more interesting and believable. Han could have used contacts from his smuggling days to try to find him (putting him back in old Han mode), but he didn't, he just gave up... I can see exactly why Lucas walked away from the project now.

They're not deadbeat. By all accounts Ben was not a little kid when he left. They're estranged. They know exactly who and where he is.

[Driver]

Fan fiction or fanfiction (also abbreviated to fan fic, fanfic, or fic) is fiction about characters or settings from an original work of fiction, created by fans of that work rather than by its creator. It is a popular form of fan labor, particularly since the advent of the Internet.

Fan fiction is rarely commissioned or authorized by the original work's creator or publisher, and is rarely professionally published.

 

By the definition above Shadow Dog, Fan Fiction can still be sanctioned. I may sound like an idiot to you, but it's not my fault that you don't understand what fan fiction really is ;-)

 

It doesn't matter who bought the rights, it's a piece of film literature. When you buy a piece of art, you didn't create it, you just own it legally.

 

JJ is a life long fan, he wrote a story based on characters created by another author, set in a universe created by another author, the only difference between this and other fan fiction is that it had financial backing and is now legally owned by a huge corporation.

 

I never saw EU as fan fiction, I always knew it wasn't Canon, but it wasn't written by fans, it was written by authors who had to pay for their bread and butter (who often say they are fans because they have to).

 

I don't use the term fan fiction in a derogatory way, I say it as that's how I see it.

 

JJ is a fan. How many Star Wars references where there in Lost ? The guy who is directing Rogue One is also another film maker / fan that the studios can control, and that's important, because it's the studio that has the final say, not JJ Abrams or any other director, as long as they like what they see and are happy with it then everyone is happy, and that is probably why they played it so safe and purposely engineered it to appeal to a wider demograph (black people and young girls).

 

Abrams recently said that by the time he came on board they had already changed the story from Lucas's draft, so what exactly was his contribution and how much free reign did he have ? I find it weird how it was only announced shortly before the films release that Lucas walked away.

 

I'd feel differently if Lucas was on board in some capacity, but he isn't. If the man who created this universe and these characters has no say in where it all goes, then how is it not fan fiction (dictated by Disney) anymore if Abrams is a huge fan ?

 

The whole thing felt like fan fiction to me, it reeked of it... It felt like it was written by a 12 year old female fan who didn't understand the characters of the OT nor the concept and ideas behind the Force, hence Rey and her ability to do everything so much better, and don't get me started on all those coincidences either.

Wait.

 

The EU wasn't fan fiction, but TFA is? How do you figure? People who go up for a job to write a Star Wars book are no different than JJ Abrams. They were fans who became pros and jumped at the chance to play Star Wars.

 

Soo you're saying, unless George Lucas writes and directs, it's fan fiction?

 

Well bring on the fan fiction then.

 

I mean, you're my bro and all, but I think you are reaching to find hate for this movie in every direction you can.

[Cerina]

So when Kasdan wrote ESB it was fan fiction?

 

Or was he a creator which would make him a creator for TFA as well?

[ShadowDog]

Since he's digging himself deeper and deeper I'll ignore that and go back to what Driver said before.

 

My problem with the term is its the first bullet in every critic's gun whenever they don't like a creative work. Like I said, it's lazy and played out. If everybody uses the term for anything even slightly bad it becomes meaningless white noise. Save it for the worst of the worst.

[the trumpet player 2]

Do you honestly believe that these authors are all fans Tank ? I'm pretty sure I read in an interview years ago where Kevin J Anderson said he wasn't really a fan of Star Wars but more a fan of the X Files (he did EU for both). I know Timothy Zahn is a fan, but at the end of the day, they are pretty much failed authors who need to make money because their original work isn't selling, so they will say what they have to say to sell books.

 

I'm not reaching to hate this movie in every direction I can Tank, I don't need to, at all. I felt worse coming out of the theatre than I did with any of the prequels. I even lose sleep at night thinking how bad this film was and I even wake up in the mornings thinking the same thing about. I'm even wasting time venting about it when I should be getting on with something more productive, but I feel so passionate about it.

 

Sure I can see why some people love it and how it is an improvement in some areas over the prequels, (acting / dialogue) and yes, miniatures and practical effects do look better than dated CGI but what about story ? Script ? Originality ? Ideas ? It was devoid of anything that made Star Wars really great. I can't think of a single film that created so many iconic characters and things that just looked so Iconic.... I can't think of one thing in this new film.

 

Cerina, Kasdan was writing with the franchises creator (Lucas) stood over his shoulder, and he came on board to re-write Leigh Brackets first draft. He was commissioned by Lucas. That is the difference.

[Cerina]

By that logic, so was Disney.

[the trumpet player 2]

Quoted by Shadow Dog: My problem with the term is its the first bullet in every critic's gun whenever they don't like a creative work. Like I said, it's lazy and played out. If everybody uses the term for anything even slightly bad it becomes meaningless white noise. Save it for the worst of the worst.

 

Shadow Dog, whoever you are you are so wrong. I regarded this film as fan fiction before I even saw it... based on the logistics.

 

If anything is lazy and played out it is Fan Fiction itself, and it's not creative. More than half of the work has already been done for the writer, all the creative thought process that goes into setting up the universe or creating characters is done long before the (fan fiction) writer put's pen to paper.

 

No writer (to my knowledge) has ever made a name for themselves as being a respectable author by writing fan fiction or EU for that matter, (correct me if I'm wrong), and that's why it is frowned upon. It's a clear example of the difference between imitating and innovating, and TFA clealy was an immitation of ANH and you can't deny it. No true creative artist get's noticed by churning out their version of someone elses work we have all seen before. You have your universe, characters, concepts, everything, and that leaves little room for imagination, and you know what, there was hardly any imagination involved with this film period, which makes me regard it as fan fiction all the more.

 

I know other films have sequels written and directed by other writers and directors, but the difference is these films are not set in a unique (invented world) like Star Wars, Lord of the Rings or Harry Potter.

 

Films like Alien, fine, it's the future, our future and I don't really see a problem with that. Same with films like Star Trek, Die Hard, Lethal Weapon etc.... it's our own (imagined) world. Star Trek writers are fans, but they used to work with / under Rodenberry, he would approve their ideas. When Lucas doesn't approve he has no choice but to shut up now.

 

It's ironic, the creator has now become the fan lol !

[the trumpet player 2]

Tank Quote (sorry still don't know how to copy and paste quotes properly on here).

 

Soo you're saying, unless George Lucas writes and directs, it's fan fiction?

 

No I'm not saying that, but if he doesn't approve then I think they should work with him and find a compromise, but I know what ego's can be like in the film industry, and I've heard Lucas's has a massive ego.

 

The Ron Moore BSG remake was fantastic, it wasn't a sequel, it was a reboot and it had Glen A Larson on board in some capacity, but even if he wasn't it would be ok in my book, because it's not a sequel.

 

They took the same ideas but made them so much better than I could have imagined. They had a similar opportunity to do the same thing with TFA but they didn't, they just took the same old ideas and did nothing new or inventive with them.

[Driver]

George Lucas made worse Star Wars than JJ Abrams. That alone kinda invalidates your theory.

 

And yes, I'm sure not every EU writer was a diehard fan... But fanfic, despite the definition you threw out, is pretty much known as "unofficial" writing unsanctioned by the creator.

 

Lucasfilm making a Star Wars movie is not fan fiction. You can say that if you want-- but the fact it is obviously canon means it is not fanfic. That's simple logic.

 

You could say it feels like fanfic to you-- but officially, it's obviously not.

[Driver]

And this won't change your mind about the film-- but taking offense over TFA repeating ANH's beats was intentional. Are we mad because they decided to do it, or mad because we think they were trying to trick us?

 

It was intentional:

http://io9.gizmodo.com/j-j-abrams-explains-why-the-force-awakens-isnt-just-a-1751925384

 

Do I agree with it? Sorta. Somewhat. I think they could have been more original, but this also makes sense. To me the real test is the next one. I won't stand for this twice, but I understand why it was done.

[the trumpet player 2]

Are you saying TFA is better than ANH Tank ?

 

It's all opinions and I don't disrespect anyone for having a difference of opinion than me, but to me ANH is by far the better film, much better. Also in my opinion the prequels where more thought out, more original and overall more well written (not including dialogue), than TFA, but unfortunately... not as well made.

 

I've always had more respect for filmmakers and writers who come up with their own material than those who don't, even if the execution isn't up to it's potential, but that's just me. I have no problem if they are worthy sequels like Aliens, I respect them for being well made and imaginative and taking something in a new direction but TFA didn't satisfy me on any of those levels. It's the person who starts it all off who gets my respect more. That being said, if I was a writer or director working in Hollywood I would still jump at the chance to get involved with Star Wars, me being the hypocrit that I am. lol !

 

With regards to Fan Fiction, my definition of what it is fit's the one I posted above.

 

Fan fiction or fanfiction (also abbreviated to fan fic, fanfic, or fic) is fiction about characters or settings from an original work of fiction, created by fans of that work rather than by its creator. It is a popular form of fan labor, particularly since the advent of the Internet.
Fan fiction is rarely commissioned or authorized by the original work's creator or publisher, and is rarely professionally published.

 

Lucasfilm is only Lucasfilm in name only now Tank, as It's owned by Disney and not George Lucas, same as Disney was once owned by Walt. Just a greedy corporation that took over Marvel and now Star Wars. Even when they began they where making films of other peoples work. Not even Winnie the Pooh was created by Disney, but many people don't know that.

 

It may not be officially titled Fan Fiction because there is no way any film company would market their product in that way, but when you strip it down to it's bare bones, the show is being run by a director who said Star Wars changed his life and was a driving force behind his career. He even said something recently along the lines of having to try hard to stop being a fan while he was on set shooting it. You can't just stop being a fan by choice, you can remain professional about it though. It was a no brainer decision on Disney's part to hire someone to direct who is a fan.

[the trumpet player 2]

I read that article Tank, To say they had to go backwards to go forwards is BS. They didn't have to do that with the other sequels. Some things I can go along with but some things I can't. My single biggest problem with TFA are the amount of coincidences and conveniences, the same problems I had with Star Trek and I would expect better from someone who is paid to write feature films.

 

I'll give you an example. They conveniently find Rey on Starkiller base, it's meant to be the size of a planet, then it turns out R2 had the map all along ? It reminds me of when Kirk lands on that ice planet, (another conveniently small planet), he bumps into Spock. Spock has just witnessed the destruction of his home planet, yet there was a Starfleet outpost just over the hill.... he could have gone and warned them and maybe put a stop to it but he didn't, depsite his logic. Similar thing with R2, he could have saved everyone, all they had to do was download the information from him, did no one actually think to look ? It's just a dumb story and it makes the characters appear dumber then they ever were.

 

I don't care how good the action scenes are, how good it looks or how good it sounds, it needs a good script, a believable script, and to me TFA was neither of these. I'm not going to go on, I need my sleep ;-)

[Driver]

Are you saying TFA is better than ANH Tank ?

 

It's all opinions and I don't disrespect anyone for having a difference of opinion than me, but to me ANH is by far the better film, much better. Also in my opinion the prequels where more thought out, more original and overall more well written (not including dialogue), than TFA, but unfortunately... not as well made.

In the favorite order thread my answers was ESB, ANH, ROTJ & TFA tied, ROTS, TPM, ROTS.

 

TFA is countless times better than the PT. Which invalidates any notion to me that without George Lucas it somehow doesn't count. George Lucas lost his ability to make magic decades ago. I'd rather have a fan that is an experienced filmmaker create a Star Wars movie of Lucas. Call JJ what you want, but he nailed the style and tone of Star Wars in TFA WAY better than any of the PT films.

 

 

Lucasfilm is only Lucasfilm in name only now Tank, as It's owned by Disney and not George Lucas, same as Disney was once owned by Walt. Just a greedy corporation that took over Marvel and now Star Wars. Even when they began they where making films of other peoples work. Not even Winnie the Pooh was created by Disney, but many people don't know that.

 

It may not be officially titled Fan Fiction because there is no way any film company would market their product in that way, but when you strip it down to it's bare bones, the show is being run by a director who said Star Wars changed his life and was a driving force behind his career. He even said something recently along the lines of having to try hard to stop being a fan while he was on set shooting it. You can't just stop being a fan by choice, you can remain professional about it though. It was a no brainer decision on Disney's part to hire someone to direct who is a fan.

You can use any definition you want-- but half of what you highlighted speaks to being official and commissioned by the owner. TFA is that. I really think you're trolling to call it fan fiction. We all know you're saying you don't think it counts because you don't like JJ Abrams. Which is fine, you certainly don't have to-- but come on. Lucasfilm making a Star Wars movie is as official as it gets. This isn't some crap-ass green screen movie on force.net. In every way possible, save for George Lucas being involved, this is an official Star Wars films with writers, cast and crew from the originals. There's just no way to sell

[Driver]

I read that article Tank, To say they had to go backwards to go forwards is BS. They didn't have to do that with the other sequels. Some things I can go along with but some things I can't. My single biggest problem with TFA are the amount of coincidences and conveniences, the same problems I had with Star Trek and I would expect better from someone who is paid to write feature films.

 

I'll give you an example. They conveniently find Rey on Starkiller base, it's meant to be the size of a planet, then it turns out R2 had the map all along ? It reminds me of when Kirk lands on that ice planet, (another conveniently small planet), he bumps into Spock. Spock has just witnessed the destruction of his home planet, yet there was a Starfleet outpost just over the hill.... he could have gone and warned them and maybe put a stop to it but he didn't, depsite his logic. Similar thing with R2, he could have saved everyone, all they had to do was download the information from him, did no one actually think to look ? It's just a dumb story and it makes the characters dumber then they ever were.

 

I don't care how good the action scenes are, how good it looks or how good it sounds, it needs a good script, a believable script, and to me TFA was neither of these. I'm not going to go on, I need my sleep ;-)

I had problems with all of these things too-- but they didn't ruin the enjoyment for me because it was fun, and the characters were likable. After the PT, that's all I wanted. Like I said, I don;t think they had to go a step back-- but I 100% understand why they did. Which, again, is why the next one will be a bigger deal for me. And Abrams isn;t involved, so we won't get Episode 8 Into Darkness. If we end up with more repeated motifs and coincidences out the ass and unoriginal ideas, then it will all fall like a house of cards.

 

But for now, especially after the PT, the mass audience needed a reset to say HERE-- THIS IS STAR WARS.

[the trumpet player 2]

I don't think Lucas intended to nail the tone of the OT when he made the PT, in fact I think he went out of his way to find something different. For years he said he started in the middle because the first three would be different in tone and feel and would not be as commercially successful.

 

The main reason TFA was closer in tone was because it had the main cast back, all the familiar ships where back... Star Destroyers, Falcon, Tie's, X Wings, all the things we are familiar with. Even the soundtrack re-plays the older themes, enhancing the OT feel, the prequel soundtracks didn't. The Soundtrack for the prequels where massively different than the OT. That's down to playing it safe. Even Star Wars video games capture the feel of the OT more than the PT did. I do't have a problem with that, those are the films strengths in my opinion.

 

I'm honestly not intending to troll by referring to this as fan fiction, it doesn't matter who the director is or who is involved. There is a Star Trek fan film doing the rounds now, I haven't looked into it much but it's got cast members from the original series and voyager in it. It's still a fan film. In fact I think Paramount are in the process of taking legal action now, maybe for a different one, I'm not sure, but it will come up on Google.

 

When you say TFA was commisioned by the owner I agree, that's Disney executives, not artists. No one knows why Lucas walked away, but he obviously didn't like the direction it was heading in, and after being told he would remain on board as a consultant it sounds like he got screwed somewhere down the line.

 

If a fan makes a film based in the universe he is a fan of, then it's a fan film in my book, it just has studio backing.

 

http://www.indiewire.com/article/review-star-wars-the-force-awakens-is-the-biggest-fan-film-ever-made-20151216

 

"The Force Awakens" is a multi-billion dollar fan film of the highest order.

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/act-four/wp/2015/12/22/star-wars-the-force-awakens-succumbs-to-the-worst-parts-of-remix-culture/

 

Director J.J. Abrams is an admitted “Star Wars” fan. He is into lightsabers and the Force much more than he is into warp factors and Pon Farr, a sticking point for fans of his last project, “Star Trek.” And his love for the wars amongst the stars shows! Abrams has made what amounts to the greatest fan film of all time.

[Driver]

Those examples are journalists doing the same thing you are-- they are using "fan fiction" as pejorative, just like Shadowdog says. It's absolutely trolling. You're all saying the same thing-- that you didn't like TFA cause it wasn't original enough, and it was made by an admitted fan, so therefor it has no more merit in your eyes than a 14 year old girl writing about the time Luke and Han touched pee pees.

 

But hey-- I get it. I'm happy to tell anyone who liked the PT that they are mentally deficient and probably can't tie their shoes. I can go on and on and on (for 16 years) about every minute thing wrong with the PT. But what I can't do (and it's probably what makes me so mad) is say that the PT doesn't count as Star Wars.

 

You can quote a dictionary all you want, but in fandom, we all know what "fan fic" really mean. You're trying to tell us it doesn't count. But it does. If I have to accept the PT counts you have to accept that TFA does.

 

If you truly think that only George Lucas can make official Star Wars that's fine-- but then why bother seeing the new movies at all?

 

As for Uncle George's intent with the PT... I've heard every excuse, justification, and explanation there is. But the fact of the matter is, no matter what his plan, they are poorly written, poorly made, terrible movies. As unoriginal as TFA may be, I'd take an unoriginal movie that is fun and has characters that are actually likable any day of the week.

 

We can say GEORGE LUCAS MEANT TO DO X Y Z. Well, then George was wrong. He clearly doesn't know the world he created well enough to make it not suck. George Lucas said TFA was a movie made for the fans-- and he meant that as an insult. If you have the biggest film franchise in the world, with one of the biggest fan bases in fandom, why the hell would you make a movie NOT for them? Those are your people. You don't make movies for yourself.

[Cerina]

George does. Did. W/e.

[Driver]

Exactly

[Mara Jade Skywalker]

Whoa whoa whoa - Star Wars authors are failed authors who need money so they write Star Wars? I have to go back to this. No, that's not how it works at all. Most of the authors who wrote Journey to the Force Awakens material have been successful writing original fiction. The only person known more for Star Wars is Jason Fry, but he started out writing Star Wars and has branched out into original stories.

 

Also, why the hell would Del Rey or Marvel or Disney Press hire failed authors? That makes no sense. They hire people with proven track records, both in and out of Star Wars.

 

Also, you don't think it's hard to write tie-in fiction? Haha, okay.

[Guest HantheMann]

Not to mention that a lot of writers, more than you probably realize (and most of them women, which is why you haven't heard of them and why fanfiction is looked down upon), started out writing fanfiction. It's a way people practice writing. It's a hobby. There's nothing wrong with it.

[Guest HantheMann]

As long as we don't have to endure a "Fifty Shades of Vader" like craze as result of some female author's fanfic, I otherwise enjoy the fact that others try to expand the Canon material.

[ShadowDog]

Those examples are journalists doing the same thing you are-- they are using "fan fiction" as pejorative, just like Shadowdog says. It's absolutely trolling.

Which is why I tapped out after one attempt to lead him out of the dark woods. It's intentional trolling because he's pissed off it was actually good.

 

I've seen a lot of EU honks pissed it's no longer canon get really mad that the new movie responsible for this Holocaust turned out to be an excellent movie.

[the trumpet player 2]

Fan fiction is literature written by a fan in a universe that he or she didn't create, we are agreed on that. In my opinion TFA is exactly that, the only difference is that it is funded by the suits who work at Disney, and because they own the rights it becomes (legally) official, whether I like it or not. I can accept that this is how the world works because everything is driven by money, (and not artistic integrity) especially in the film industry. The artistic side of this films pre-production process s no different, except they have money to bring in Hollywood professionals.

 

I don't even mind if it's fan fiction, if it was well written I wouldn't have a problem, but TFA was awful for so many reasons and the standard of writing in that film was just sub par at best. EU novels in my opinion where more entertaining. This just adds to why it comes accross to me as Fan Fiction. I honestly believe (despite how bad the prequels where) that if Lucas was listened to, it could have been much better, because there is some good stuff in the prequels and the Clone Wars.

 

If you can't agree with me that this is fan fiction then fair enough, we all have opinions but you have to agree that there are similarities.

 

First and foremost film is an art form, I've always regarded it in that way. I also regard writers as artists too. True artists are people with vision, (technical skills take second place to that), who have something new to say or show, TFA was none of this. The only things new in this film where.... let's throw in a female lead and a female Yoda to bring in more female audience members, and let's throw in a stereotypical black guy to bring in more black fans. This isn't how an artist who wants to push the envelope and develop a story thinks, this is how a film executive that wants to make as much money as possible thinks. Any director with true artistic integrity wouldn't allow one of his actors to dictate the fate of their character either, and we all know the real reason Han Solo had to die, not to give the film some balls as JJ put it, but because he has no balls to say no.

 

This film is just a checklist of what the fans liked about the OT repackaged and slightly altered for the Post MTV generation, people who get bored if a film has a scene with more than five minutes of talking in it.

 

I could also nitpick the prequels (I was in the minority of people on here 15 years ago who did), I have to accept them as part of Canon, but I can still sit back and watch the OT and not give them any thought. In my own world I can choose to accept that certain things didn't happen. It's easier to do that with TFA because it's been written and directed by a fan, it's harder for the PT because it was created by Lucas.

 

At the end of the day I love ANH, ESB and I'm fond of RTOJ, I couldn't care less about any of the other films, they are there if I choose to watch them. I've not been back to see TFA, I may give it a second chance, but I can't see me liking it. I just wasn't entertained at all, I didn't find it to be fun, I found it to be depressing and as cheesy as hell. ESB has so much class, this didn't.

[the trumpet player 2]

Which is why I tapped out after one attempt to lead him out of the dark woods. It's intentional trolling because he's pissed off it was actually good.

 

LMAO.

 

Theres a fan on youtube who did a review, who begins by saying he can't understand why fans jump on him for not liking the film, there are people who accuse him of not being a true fan because he doesn't like it. Some of the fan mentality is absurd and just plain dumb... and now I get accused of trolling for a sharing a valid opinion that a critic (and not a so called fan would have ?). I'm a fan, not a critic, but I do have a critical mind, as do many Star Wars fans outside of this little contained world known as nightly.net.

 

 

You say I'm pissed off because the film was actually good ? You may think it was good but I don't, that's my real honest opinion and I've pointed out many reasons why I think this way. I don't go out of my way to be different than everyone else. You think it's good, fine. I don't. Millions of people think it's good, fine. It means nothing to me. Millions of people think Kanye West is a musical genius... fine. I don't.

[The Choc]

Ofcourse you can choose to accept that certain things didn't happen, because none of it happened.

 

Stop taking yourself and the movies so seriously.