Did TFA diminish the significance of the previous Star Wars films?

[Lord Darth Hunter]

Myths are supposed to teach us lessons. This trilogy teaches that there are far reaching and long term and unintended consequences for our actions. Episodes 1-6 tell us basically the story of Anakin falling to the dark side, doing all kinds of evil stuff, then doing one good thing at the end of his life and everyone lives happy every after. He gets to go hang in Jedi heaven with Obi Wan and Yoda.

That's really kind of a crappy lesson. Anakin's turning to the dark side resonates throughout the Galaxy for a long time in this trilogy. His grandson worships Darth Vader, this is the unintended consquence. You can't just essentially have a death bed confession and be forgiven and go to heaven. Anakin's actions are still being felt decades later. Now he gets to look on from the Jedi afterlife at his grandson doing the same things he did. This is Anakin's penance.

The Skywalkers are a terrible family. Anakin betrays his friends and brothers-in-arms, murders hundreds in cold blood, including children, helps form and sustain an Empire that kills millions more beings, yet his son thinks he's still basically a good guy under that shiny armor and forgives all these horrible things he's done just because he saved him from the Emperor. Obi Wan and Yoda are no better.

[Driver]

 

Because you can still watch 1-6 and have that play out to its end. TFA doesn't involve time travel. I said early on I was worried about Luke's success in ROTJ being undone-- but they skirted this by the dark side returning in a different way.

I really want to buy that as a legitimate argument. I was actually pleased to see the dark side return in a different way (just so I'm clear, Snoke and Kylo Ryn aren't technically sith, right?), and I do appreciate that Abrams is making an effort to preserve what transpired before, but I still can't help but see it as weak and flimsy. Anakin's destiny was to eliminate the sith from the galaxy. He did that. But from a story-telling point of view, isn't creating more dark side users with red lightsabers who aren't sith a cheap copout? If something looks like, sounds like, and smells like a duck, then its a duck.

 

That's a fair point. And to be honest, if I didn't like TFA I'm sure this would be my first point of attack. If there's one thing I know to be true about movies-- is that if somebody is genuinely entertained they are willing to cut something a lot of slack. That line of being mad and being entertained is obviously subjectional.

 

I got a NEW Star Wars movie that was fun-- it's flawed as all get out, but it was fun enough that I cut it slack. I gave myself rationalizations that would make it work, and I was lucky in that they chose a very similar direction.

 

 

I like that. I still can't help but see interpretations of this type as attempts to rationalize away the cognitive dissonance created by adding TFA to the saga, but I do think that is an interesting way of looking at things.

I think the problem you're having is that Lucas said Star Wars is Anakin's story and it takes 6 movies to tell it. Everything you say fits into that model-- but that's not what it is any more,

 

To be fair, he decided that AFTER making the PT. It kinda works, sure, but really, the OT was about Luke. But now that they've decided to make more, it's clear that each trilogy is about the next generation of Skywalker. To that, what TFA is setting up makes a lot of sense.

 

I don't think that if you were pitching the notion that Anakin's story is the monomyth of the fallen hero anyone would be able to disagree. I think this is 100% true. But Star Wars is now more than Anakin's story. His part of it is in there for sure, but there's several stories being told over multiple movies, so it can't just be his, or Luke's or any one person.

 

 

 

So which is it?

 

You can't say Lucas made a perfect thing on purpose, but then discount what he might do if he'd made TFA (which at one pioint he planned to do).

 

I don't think you can have it both ways.

 

Again, you're discounting anything that doesn't fit into your thesis.

Sure I can. Isn't it possible for an artist to cheapen his or her own work? Had Lucas chose to make additional films after he had already introduced all the "prophecy/chosen-one" stuff into the prequels, I would say he was being short-sighted, as that stuff sets up a perfect ending in ROTJ.

 

LOL-- you're not going to get me defending George Lucas. He most certainly has changed his mind and made poor decisions-- I just question you using his monomyth plan/model as a sacrosanct defense in one instance, but then dismiss him in another.

 

 

At the end of the day though-- I think most arguments about TFA's impact on the saga are moot because:

 

I don't think this can be answered until this trilogy concludes.

[Quetzalcoatl]

And before you say I don't get your point - I do, I just think that you are wrong and spewing marketing campaign nonsense in an attempt to make George Lucas seem smarter than he is. And since the guy is a creative genius, it stinks that he felt the need to lie.

Is this directed at me? No, I'm not saying anything out of a motivation to make Lucas look smart. Re-read my OP. I laid my motivations bare there. I guess I tend to look at SW from an academic's perspective. The PT and OT, when viewed in that order, walk the viewer through every stage in the journey of the archetypal hero, showing different variants of it along the way. And they all come together very nicely at the climax of ROTJ. Driver likes to point out that, as movies, some are far from perfect. I won't disagree. And as a SW fan, TFA is nothing but good news, but the academic in me can't help but shudder.

 

I realize that 99% of SW fans don't look at the films the way I do (they are there to entertain), and so I take for granted that most you aren't going to follow my train of thought. But no, this has nothing to do with "marketing campaigns" and everything to do with the cognitive dissonance TFA is creating in my head.

[Driver]

The PT and OT, when viewed in that order,

Well HERE'S where you're going wrong....

 

But it's funny you bring up academia. I often wonder if my hatred of the PT comes from the fact I was in film school when the PT came out. My life-long Star Wars fan brain was in conflict with my film studies brain.

[Guest]

No, Luxas lied to you about Star Wars to make himself look smart and you bought it. That's my point.

 

The OT was in no way about Anakin, no matter what Lucas wants you to believe.

[The Choc]

He didn't lie, stories change as they are being told.

[Quetzalcoatl]

That's a fair point. And to be honest, if I didn't like TFA I'm sure this would be my first point of attack. If there's one thing I know to be true about movies-- is that if somebody is genuinely entertained they are willing to cut something a lot of slack. That line of being mad and being entertained is obviously subjectional.

 

I know what you mean. I actually had similar arguments against a fourth Pirates of the Caribbean film being made, but I was able to let that one slide more easily because POTC doesn't mean to me what SW does. So I can still sit back and enjoy POTC 4 despite my stance that the movie had no right to exist. Ironically, it is my love SW that is making it difficult to accept TFA. The prequels were an easier sell for me, despite their flaws, because it was easier to attach them to the OT. All six movies run together very nicely. They don't feel like individual movies, but one long story. But it feels like there is disconnect between TFA and everything that's come before. It's not so easy to pass this one off as a continuation of one story, and that bothers me given that SW was always episodic.

 

 

 

I think the problem you're having is that Lucas said Star Wars is Anakin's story and it takes 6 movies to tell it. Everything you say fits into that model-- but that's not what it is any more

 

I get that SW isn't Anakin's story anymore. I'm saying that it should be, but we'll have to agree to disagree on that.

 

 

 

LOL-- you're not going to get me defending George Lucas. He most certainly has changed his mind and made poor decisions

 

Yes, that's my point. He's changed his mind many times. SW was supposed to be three films. SW was supposed to be nine films. Wasn't he even saying 12 films at one point? He's said everything under the sun. But there was a time when he was saying SW should be six films that tell Anakin's story. Out of all of Lucas's different visions of SW, I prefer this one the most, for reasons already discussed. My views are my own. At no point did I ever make an appeal to Lucas's authority and say "SW should be this way because George Lucas said so." I could care less if Lucas changed his mind ten more times sense voicing his "six-film plain." I maintain that he had it right when he said he was drawing the line at six films. If he later went back on that and changed his mind, I have the right to disagree with him and call him short-sighted.

 

 

 

But it's funny you bring up academia. I often wonder if my hatred of the PT comes from the fact I was in film school when the PT came out. My life-long Star Wars fan brain was in conflict with my film studies brain.

 

With me, I think it is my mythology fanaticism that has allowed to be so accepting of the prequels, despite their flaws as movies, and so critical of anything new.

[Quetzalcoatl]

No, Luxas lied to you about Star Wars to make himself look smart and you bought it. That's my point.

 

The OT was in no way about Anakin, no matter what Lucas wants you to believe.

I never said the OT was supposed to be about Anakin. Nowhere. I said SW evolved into a six-film story where Anakin was the primary character, and I said I wanted it to stay that way. I read tons of books, mostly by Joseph Campbell, and these gave me a wider appreciation of SW that extends beyond entertainment, and these to a large degree shaped my views on what SW should be. If you think I am just parroting stuff Lucas said, you clearly aren't understanding my point as well as you claim.

[The Maker]

Anakin's turning to the dark side resonates throughout the Galaxy for a long time in this trilogy. His grandson worships Darth Vader, this is the unintended consquence. You can't just essentially have a death bed confession and be forgiven and go to heaven. Anakin's actions are still being felt decades later. Now he gets to look on from the Jedi afterlife at his grandson doing the same things he did. This is Anakin's penance.

An excellent observation!

[Tex]

I think that all sequels diminish the original, even if they're equal to or even better the first one. Aliens is a good example. Both movies were great, but it's hard to go back to the first one and feel the same suspense when it's only one Alien after you've seen Ripley survive a hoard of them in the sequel.

 

Godfather 2 had the same effect on me. As much as I love GF2, and as awesome as Pacino was in it (still my fav Pacino movie pre or post HOO HAH Pacino), it kinda cheapens the final scene of GF1. If there were no GF2 that scene would carry much more weight.

 

As for ESB, it totally diminishes ANH because it's a much better movie. I can't even watch ANH anymore because when I do I wish I was watching ESB.

[the trumpet player 2]

I think ESB has the complete opposite effect on ANH. It doesn't diminish the film, it strengthens it in so many ways.

[Tex]

To me ESB makes ANH look like a home movie. It's like they didn't really take SW seriously until they did ESB.

[the trumpet player 2]

Well for me ESB makes ANH more interesting because it changes our perspective on many things. When Obi Wan talks to Luke about his father we now know he is lying. When Vader kills Obi Wan in front of Luke we now know that's his own father killing his father figure etc...

 

One of the ways I think TFA diminishes the original trilogy is that I believe it betrays the character arcs. I just don't find it feasible that Han would go back to being a smuggler (at 70+ years of age), and I find it hard to believe that Luke would turn his back on his friends and family, and the entire Galaxy for that matter, especially considering he is partly responsible for training and creating the next potential Darth Vader.

[Driver]

Ahh-- but you don't know he turned his back on them. Maybe he had a higher calling. Maybe on that island are a hundred new Jedi ready to gith.

 

I think it is impossible to look at any of the OT films objectively given that we've all seen them so many times. None of us REALLY capable of being in the mindset of those movies coming out piecemeal.

 

Even with the PT, we knew where it had to end up and what some of the arcs where.

 

But TFA is a blank canvas,, we don't know where it is going. We can make some educated guesses, but I don't think we can be mad at it doing things that we haven't seen actually come to pass.

[the trumpet player 2]

Maybe some of these should be explained a little more if that is the case. Everyone is saying how well this is a set up for the next two films, it shouldn't be about that, it should work as a film in it's own right, sure it should leave questions open, but more importantly it should serve the older characters in way's that to me, this film did not.

 

I also find it hard to believe that Han Solo and Leia are deadbeat parents (especially Han), it makes them much less likeable to me. Why was Han not out searching for their son ? If he had stayed with the resistance as a general he would have had all those resources. It would have made it far more interesting and believable. Han could have used contacts from his smuggling days to try to find him (putting him back in old Han mode), but he didn't, he just gave up... I can see exactly why Lucas walked away from the project now.

[the trumpet player 2]

[Tex]

Maybe some of these should be explained a little more if that is the case. Everyone is saying how well this is a set up for the next two films, it shouldn't be about that, it should work as a film in it's own right, sure it should leave questions open, but more importantly it should serve the older characters in way's that to me, this film did not.

 

I also find it hard to believe that Han Solo and Leia are deadbeat parents (especially Han), it makes them much less likeable to me. Why was Han not out searching for their son ? If he had stayed with the resistance as a general he would have had all those resources. It would have made it far more interesting and believable. Han could have used contacts from his smuggling days to try to find him (putting him back in old Han mode), but he didn't, he just gave up... I can see exactly why Lucas walked away from the project now.

People have a hard time with TFA because in this story Han, Leia, and Luke didnt live happily ever after. Luke didn't start a Jedi academy, Han and Leia didn't watch Coruscant Idol together, boo hoo.

 

If you'd like to imagine otherwise, feel free. These are not real people, they are characters. If you still have your action figures you can use them for visual effect, even if they're still in the box.

[Dark Wader]

One of those amateur youtube conspiracy videos had a theory that might slot into the monomyth aspect, though I doubt this where they are headed with it, Rey is the reincarnation of Anakin Skywalker, come back to properly complete the Chosen One's journey. That might explain the state of the galaxy after RoTJ.

[the trumpet player 2]

I don't have a hard time with fan fiction Tex. That's all TFA is.

 

One thing that makes a sequel work is when you pay attention to the characters and universe established in the previous films, this film didn't.

 

The biggest problems with TFA is that follows on from a film which tied up all the loose ends perfectly. Jedi ended the story, this is all just stuff made up afterwards, and it feels like it. That's why it doesn't gel with the previous films. All previous Star Wars films have logical progression, this doesn't.

 

Another way this film diminishes the previous films is this... let's just forget about training to be a Jedi altogether, because now people can just become one in five minutes without any mentors. This is just another example of lazy writing and political correctness gone too far. Let's kill off the alpha male of the series and replace him with wonder kid girl.

 

The amount of garbage put into this film is far worse than a lot of EU stuff which I read in my late teens / early twenties.

 

Honestly, despite the terrible dialogue and acting of the prequels, I prefer them over this.

[ShadowDog]

Anybody else sick and tired of "fan fiction" being used as a pejorative? It's lazy even when applied correctly and in this case it doesn't even meet that standard. Fan fiction is by definition non sanctioned work written by a fan within the realm of somebody else's IP. Disney paid $4 billion for the very right to use these characters and this universe. Like it or not they own it now and they sanctioned TFA.

 

When you use the term fan fiction about this movie not only do you sound like an idiot, you undermine anything else you have to say.

 

I just really hate how "fan fiction" has become the N Word of criticism. It's lazy and played out.

[Mara Jade Skywalker]

Not to mention that a lot of writers, more than you probably realize (and most of them women, which is why you haven't heard of them and why fanfiction is looked down upon), started out writing fanfiction. It's a way people practice writing. It's a hobby. There's nothing wrong with it.

[Driver]

I think Shadowdog is right in terms of definition.

 

And I think Mara is right in that it's a legit form of practice.

 

But I also get why it's used as an insult. It describes a very precise thing-- something of subpar quality that's using elements we're familiar with in an incorrect way... and is generally terrible.

 

That said, I don't think TFA comes close to qualifying.

 

As for fanfiction being harmless-- there's a lot of authors who disagree. Fanfiction is kinda like a gun. It's kinda down to what you end up doing with it.

[Mara Jade Skywalker]

Eh. I have opinions about authors who bash fanfic, but I'll keep those to myself. Let's just say I'll be encouraging people to write fic of my novels.

[Lord Darth Hunter]

As for ESB, it totally diminishes ANH because it's a much better movie. I can't even watch ANH anymore because when I do I wish I was watching ESB.

When I watch ANH I find myself missing little things like the Imperial March. And some of the stuff that make it a product of its time (like all the actors' haircuts, i.e. all the Imperial officers with those long sideburns) also bug me now.

[the trumpet player 2]

Fan fiction or fanfiction (also abbreviated to fan fic, fanfic, or fic) is fiction about characters or settings from an original work of fiction, created by fans of that work rather than by its creator. It is a popular form of fan labor, particularly since the advent of the Internet.

Fan fiction is rarely commissioned or authorized by the original work's creator or publisher, and is rarely professionally published.

 

By the definition above Shadow Dog, Fan Fiction can still be sanctioned. I may sound like an idiot to you, but it's not my fault that you don't understand what fan fiction really is ;-)

 

It doesn't matter who bought the rights, it's a piece of film literature. When you buy a piece of art, you didn't create it, you just own it legally.

 

JJ is a life long fan, he wrote a story based on characters created by another author, set in a universe created by another author, the only difference between this and other fan fiction is that it had financial backing and is now legally owned by a huge corporation.

 

I never saw EU as fan fiction, I always knew it wasn't Canon, but it wasn't written by fans, it was written by authors who had to pay for their bread and butter (who often say they are fans because they have to).

 

I don't use the term fan fiction in a derogatory way, I say it as that's how I see it.

 

JJ is a fan. How many Star Wars references where there in Lost ? The guy who is directing Rogue One is also another film maker / fan that the studios can control, and that's important, because it's the studio that has the final say, not JJ Abrams or any other director, as long as they like what they see and are happy with it then everyone is happy, and that is probably why they played it so safe and purposely engineered it to appeal to a wider demograph (black people and young girls).

 

Abrams recently said that by the time he came on board they had already changed the story from Lucas's draft, so what exactly was his contribution and how much free reign did he have ? I find it weird how it was only announced shortly before the films release that Lucas walked away.

 

I'd feel differently if Lucas was on board in some capacity, but he isn't. If the man who created this universe and these characters has no say in where it all goes, then how is it not fan fiction (dictated by Disney) anymore if Abrams is a huge fan ?

 

The whole thing felt like fan fiction to me, it reeked of it... It felt like it was written by a 12 year old female fan who didn't understand the characters of the OT nor the concept and ideas behind the Force, hence Rey and her ability to do everything so much better, and don't get me started on all those coincidences either.