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Rey, Mary Sues, her progression and the nature of the Force


89 replies to this topic

#51
Justus

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Landis was on target in so many ways, but the other big takeaway was the group's talk about many opinions of the film--even from those who enjoyed it--are about what's wrong with it.

 

Telling.



#52
The Choc

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Yes, because some group of people had an opinion of the movie that is in line with yours it must be "telling".


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#53
Odine

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Landis was on target in so many ways, but the other big takeaway was the group's talk about many opinions of the film--even from those who enjoyed it--are about what's wrong with it.
 
Telling.


It's a lot easier to pick away at small things that you don't like than remember the specificities that you do.
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#54
ShadowDog

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It always surprises me that people know, or care about, terms like "Mary Sue."


Writers should know about it, if only to avoid it. Tropes are neither bad nor good in most cases, its all how they're used.

#55
Justus

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Yes, because some group of people had an opinion of the movie that is in line with yours it must be "telling".

 

Translated: Yes, because some group of people had an opinion of the movie that is not in line with yours must mean it is wrong.



#56
Brett

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Does her depiction belittle women? Does it artificially prop them up? I didn't get that at all. The Rey character just legitimately seemed like a fun character in a fun movie. 
Is there some sloppy writing in this movie? Inconceivable! Does she progress too fast in the Jedi-video-game-level-up-meter? I dunno, dude. Go get me the ****ing Star Wars rulebook and I'll look it up. 


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#57
El Chalupacabra

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duty_calls.png


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#58
Driver

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Well, again, I have to bring up why people make Luke the benchmark and don't like that she did something he didn't.

Yes, at one point, Star Wars was about Luke. But then the PT said it was about Vader. Now, we're being told it's about the Skywalker line-- which is perfectly fine by me.

Each trilogy is about the next generation of Skywalker.

So why couldn't each generation be more powerful.

Anakin was conceived by the force and could be considered the beginning of the line. He was naturally gifted and became more powerful than most Jedi in a shorter amount of time.

Luke similarly excelled at a fast pace and defied all Jedi edicts by being able to turn his back on the dark side after using it, and let his compassion govern his decisions despite being taught not to.

So if Rey is a Skywalker, why can't she have the potential to be bigger and better. If each generation of Skywalker manages the force more instinctually I think it makes sense and is cool.
 
 
 
 
 
 

Frankly, i'm surprised you're not getting it. This debate is not limited to power, but purpose, and how they are linked in the bigger picture of a character. Luke was created and sold as a savior character. There's no denying that.  PT-Anakin's "Chosen One" plot was rendered irrelevant by the fact that as Vader, he did not--and was not going to move an inch toward killing the Emperor unless motivated by the biggest external factor of all--Luke (how GL did not see that coming remains a mystery).
 
Luke never needed such motivation--he was incorruptible (suicide fall on Cloud City / tossing his lightsaber aside on DS II), and by the time of ESB's Emperor hologram dialogue, it was clear he had the greatest potential in being named THE threat to oh-so-all-powerful Sidious & the equally oh-so-powerful empire, meaning all we witnessed in his first appearance (ANH) was not "just happening," but carefully, sensibly introduced and progressed by on-screen events, largely tied to Kenobi's handling of Luke.
 
Some (not necessarily meaning you) want to support the poorly plotted, "just happening" power/understanding surge of Rey for Mary Sue reasons bursting at the seams (I'm a woman and can only relate to a female heroine) or political reasons ("it's time"), and not really caring how this has to play to the general audience--or have lasting appeal in the years to come.
 
Let's be honest--TFA was a copy+paste job of ANH to a degree only the dead would miss--except in the most important part of all. Really, all this copy needed to successfully sell Rey's growth was....er...better writing...showing Rey to not just be CHARACTER FROM DESERT WORLD THRUST INTO ADVENTURE, but her being guided in the somewhat similar, instructional steps as Luke. End Mary Sue criticism.
 
Perhaps it would have been better to have her display moderate power in TFA, leaving her greater feat for in the 1st act of E8, which would play into GL's "it's like a poetry, it rhymes" to have Rey mirror Luke's journey. I find that more acceptable than the "just happening" crap--especially, since it is assumed Rey is Luke's daughter.
Sorry-- responded in another thread.

I get your point now. I totally see where you're coming from, but I guess I don't need to see the same progression we've seen twice before.

Choc makes a good point, it seems odd to complain that the movie copies ANH too much, but then also complain when it doesn't.

Edited by Driver, 24 December 2015 - 11:39 AM.

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#59
The Choc

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Yes, because some group of people had an opinion of the movie that is in line with yours it must be "telling".

 

Translated: Yes, because some group of people had an opinion of the movie that is not in line with yours must mean it is wrong.

 

I didn't even watch that guys opinion because I don't care what he thinks.

 

The thing is this, people who don't like the movie in many cases don;t just say "I didn't like the movie and here is why...". They say "I didn't like the movie and anyone who did was basically duped into liking it. Myself by seeing these flaws and allowing them to ruin the movie for me, are smart and incapable of being duped unlike you poor people who liked the movie".



#60
Driver

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And that's only true if you don't like the prequels

#61
captainbleh

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And a panel of four guys discussing a female character...

 

:nono:  


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#62
Mara Jade Skywalker

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Not surprising, really.

#63
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What if Rey had some Jedi training before she was left on Jakku as a child. If Luke was the one who left her there he probably would have given her some skills to protect herself.

#64
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Look, again, the movie is a setup. You don't get all the answers at the beginning of story. If you do, there's no point in the rest.

 

I have a lot of questions. Like how did she mysteriously know how to perform a Jedi mind trick when a few minutes before that in the movie she was shocked Luke was real and others that people mention in here. 

 

I'm hoping that they will be answered within the story. It could be she had training before. I'm interested to see where it goes.

 

I do know this. If some of it is not explained then I will feel cheated and a little like it's pandering.



#65
Brando

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Look, again, the movie is a setup. You don't get all the answers at the beginning of story. If you do, there's no point in the rest.

 

I have a lot of questions. Like how did she mysteriously know how to perform a Jedi mind trick when a few minutes before that in the movie she was shocked Luke was real and others that people mention in here. 

 

I'm hoping that they will be answered within the story. It could be she had training before. I'm interested to see where it goes.

 

I do know this. If some of it is not explained then I will feel cheated and a little like it's pandering.

Apparently you're sexist for thinking that way.



#66
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Of course



#67
Pong Messiah

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sexiest


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#68
Justus

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And a panel of four guys discussing a female character...

 

:nono:  

So, i guess Janet Maslin (and other female movie critics) should have shut her mouth instead of analyzing male characters over the course of her career.


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#69
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No, that's fine. Men just need to STFU and kill themselves.
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#70
Poe Dameron

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Not sure how serious Captain Bleh was, but, for what it's worth, I used to be a regular viewer of Screen Junkies (ironically stopping due to gratuitous Prequel bashing) and they make it a point to keep keeping women in their rotation.  Just none showed up this week.



#71
ShadowDog

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I think a lot of times "prequel bashing" it's just convenient shorthand. Since everybody is aware that most people think the prequels suck, you can use that to make a point.

It's easier to say "This movie makes the PT look like Citizen Kane" than "This movie makes the worst movie ever made look like Citizen Kane." That's just comedy 101

#72
Poe Dameron

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It's pretty gratuitous on that channel.  I could take a few contributors being haters, but I can't think of any semi-regular contributor on that channel that will even come out with a weak "It wasn't that bad" or "There were some parts I liked" when the hate train gets rolling.  They all just get in together on the joke and participate in the ritualistic two minutes of hate until the subject changes.

 

And since Star Wars comes up pretty often, and I rather enjoyed the Prequels, I started not wanting to watch them.



#73
ShadowDog

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Yeah I get what you're saying in that case.

#74
Metropolis

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Not sure how serious Captain Bleh was, but, for what it's worth, I used to be a regular viewer of Screen Junkies (ironically stopping due to gratuitous Prequel bashing) and they make it a point to keep keeping women in their rotation.  Just none showed up this week.

There wasn't a review I saw that Wednesday that didn't take some shot at the prequels.

#75
madddox

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Probably straying a bit from some of the things that this thread is trying to address, but I saw this analogy elsewhere and think it's entirely apt.

 

Rey is the Jean Grey of Star Wars.





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