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Rey, Mary Sues, her progression and the nature of the Force


89 replies to this topic

#26
Metropolis

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I get the feeling that this is becoming more of a gender thing than anything else.

#27
Exodus

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Anakin was doing Jedi **** @ age 8 without knowing he was a Jedi.

Rey, at her adult age, was beginning to have some idea of both what she may have and what she may be able to do with it.

#28
Driver

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Great point. Rey hasn't been held back. She's been on her own completely.

Who knows where Luke would have been if his uncle hadn't been holding him back with chores.

#29
Pong Messiah

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I get the feeling that this is becoming more of a gender thing than anything else.

I'm sure it is for some people.

 

I think it is also:

  • Some people need every dang thing spelled out for them. She didn't get 100 lines of exposition saying she's the "chosen one" or whatever, so it "doesn't make sense" that she can do super cool thing. Even though her repair, survival, staff abilities, etc. were clearly shown early in the film, and even though we get tons of hints that she has loads of potential as the film moves on. GAH I JUST DON'T UNDERSTAND AND I DON'T LIKE IT
  • Some people just reflexively hate this character archetype because they want something different. When Luke first appeared in 1977, he was a breath of fresh air. Luke wasn't a new archetype by any means, but so much in film and literature at the time was cynical, finger-wagging, doomsaying and just not fun, and he was like "whoooo!." But nearly 40 years later, we have films with Galen Bradwarden, Alex Rogan, Harry Potter, Frodo Baggins, Katniss Everdeen, Bilbo Baggins -- super lucky, talented, and absolutely necessary to defeat some great evil. While this archetype will always be around, some people are just tired of it at the moment, no matter how well it is pulled off.

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#30
Metropolis

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Anakin was doing Jedi **** @ age 8 without knowing he was a Jedi.

Rey, at her adult age, was beginning to have some idea of both what she may have and what she may be able to do with it.

What Jedi ****? Racing pods? Fixing things? When Anakin blew up the droid control ship people called it cheesy, weak, and a few other adjectives that escape me right now. And he was a creation of the force. Rey does all these things that she shouldn't know anything about unless there were copies of Star Wars videos on Starkiller base ala Spaceballs and everyone is fine and open to it. Awful double standard.

#31
Pong Messiah

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What Jedi ****? Racing pods? Fixing things? When Anakin blew up the droid control ship people called it cheesy, weak, and a few other adjectives that escape me right now. And he was a creation of the force. Rey does all these things that she shouldn't know anything about unless there were copies of Star Wars videos on Starkiller base ala Spaceballs and everyone is fine and open to it. Awful double standard. 

Dude, he was a nine-year-old who somehow knew how to make protocol droids, win pod-races, blow up bigbad ships, etc...

 

She was a full grown adult, a survivor who lived on her own, knew how to fight, etc...

 

And most importantly, she is likable and somebody you want to see win at the end of the movie, while everybody wants to see Anakin locked in a dark closet full of rats by the end of the movie.

 

No double standard. Big difference!


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#32
Driver

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HUNGRY rats that have been lit on fire
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#33
Exodus

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Yup, Anakin was a creation of the force...and somewhere down the line, she's an offspring of a creation of the force. Most likely.

Can the benefits of being said creation diminish or strengthen from one generation to another? Could anyone down the line from Anakin be stronger than he was?

Is she?

#34
Cerina

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I get the feeling that this is becoming more of a gender thing than anything else.


I'm sure. But I doubt it's a conscious thing. I haven't seen anybody complaining about all the other women in the movie. Not a word about the female stormtroopers or the pink R2.
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#35
Driver

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Well, again, I have to bring up why people make Luke the benchmark and don't like that she did something he didn't.

Yes, at one point, Star Wars was about Luke. But then the PT said it was about Vader. Now, we're being told it's about the Skywalker line-- which is perfectly fine by me.

Each trilogy is about the next generation of Skywalker.

So why couldn't each generation be more powerful.

Anakin was conceived by the force and could be considered the beginning of the line. He was naturally gifted and became more powerful than most Jedi in a shorter amount of time.

Luke similarly excelled at a fast pace and defied all Jedi edicts by being able to turn his back on the dark side after using it, and let his compassion govern his decisions despite being taught not to.

So if Rey is a Skywalker, why can't she have the potential to be bigger and better. If each generation of Skywalker manages the force more instinctually I think it makes sense and is cool.
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#36
Metropolis

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No. No different. Only different in your mind.

Anakin and Rey mirror each other almost every way except age. The biggest difference? Rey wins her first lightsaber duel with no training. Anakin doesn't win one, on screen, until the opening act of ROTS after years of training. Throwing all the bull**** theories which might or might not pan out, the simplest conclusion is this. It was convenient to the story. It's overlooked because the majority seem to love TFA, while they dislike TPM.

#37
Driver

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I'd have been fine with Anakin doing crazy things had they been well acted, performed, directed, written, etc. hey were not presented in a way that made him likeable or the situation fun.


As for my point--

What if Rey's power is intentional? What if she's supposed to be that powerful in the force?

Why is that automatically wrong?

Edited by Driver, 24 December 2015 - 12:08 AM.


#38
Cerina

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Anakin and Rey mirror each other almost every way except age.



...

What.

#39
Justus

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Well, again, I have to bring up why people make Luke the benchmark and don't like that she did something he didn't.

Yes, at one point, Star Wars was about Luke. But then the PT said it was about Vader. Now, we're being told it's about the Skywalker line-- which is perfectly fine by me.

Each trilogy is about the next generation of Skywalker.

So why couldn't each generation be more powerful.

Anakin was conceived by the force and could be considered the beginning of the line. He was naturally gifted and became more powerful than most Jedi in a shorter amount of time.

Luke similarly excelled at a fast pace and defied all Jedi edicts by being able to turn his back on the dark side after using it, and let his compassion govern his decisions despite being taught not to.

So if Rey is a Skywalker, why can't she have the potential to be bigger and better. If each generation of Skywalker manages the force more instinctually I think it makes sense and is cool.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Frankly, i'm surprised you're not getting it. This debate is not limited to power, but purpose, and how they are linked in the bigger picture of a character. Luke was created and sold as a savior character. There's no denying that.  PT-Anakin's "Chosen One" plot was rendered irrelevant by the fact that as Vader, he did not--and was not going to move an inch toward killing the Emperor unless motivated by the biggest external factor of all--Luke (how GL did not see that coming remains a mystery).

 

Luke never needed such motivation--he was incorruptible (suicide fall on Cloud City / tossing his lightsaber aside on DS II), and by the time of ESB's Emperor hologram dialogue, it was clear he had the greatest potential in being named THE threat to oh-so-all-powerful Sidious & the equally oh-so-powerful empire, meaning all we witnessed in his first appearance (ANH) was not "just happening," but carefully, sensibly introduced and progressed by on-screen events, largely tied to Kenobi's handling of Luke.

 

Some (not necessarily meaning you) want to support the poorly plotted, "just happening" power/understanding surge of Rey for Mary Sue reasons bursting at the seams (I'm a woman and can only relate to a female heroine) or political reasons ("it's time"), and not really caring how this has to play to the general audience--or have lasting appeal in the years to come.

 

Let's be honest--TFA was a copy+paste job of ANH to a degree only the dead would miss--except in the most important part of all. Really, all this copy needed to successfully sell Rey's growth was....er...better writing...showing Rey to not just be CHARACTER FROM DESERT WORLD THRUST INTO ADVENTURE, but her being guided in the somewhat similar, instructional steps as Luke. End Mary Sue criticism.

 

Perhaps it would have been better to have her display moderate power in TFA, leaving her greater feat for in the 1st act of E8, which would play into GL's "it's like a poetry, it rhymes" to have Rey mirror Luke's journey. I find that more acceptable than the "just happening" crap--especially, since it is assumed Rey is Luke's daughter.



#40
Poe Dameron

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What Jedi ****? Racing pods? Fixing things?

 

Anakin was also able to read Mace Windu's mind before his training started.  Recall the scene where the Jedi Council tests him and Sam Jackson is holding the 1999 version of an I-Pad on a stick.  That's reasonably high level.

 

The difference is that Anakin's development in the Force didn't start when the Qui-Gon showed up.  Maybe he didn't have formal training, but he'd been touching the Force for a long time before the movie started.  He didn't just get whisked along on an adventure and a couple days later getting the hang of it.

 

Anakin's early Force abilities also fit the development because they are presented as an intuitive skills.  Rey's native ability with machines fits that same mold, and it can be argued that her reflexive turning back of Kylo Ren's mind probe would fall under that category as well (though that is stretching things).  However, using Force manipulation and suddenly being able to best Kylo Ren in a lightsaber duel does not fit.

 

If they'd stopped at her ability to turn back the mind probe, then there would be no problem.  That would have been a sufficient example of her being a powerful Force adept.  But they kept going.

 

I get the feeling that this is becoming more of a gender thing than anything else.

 

It's not a gender thing.  I like my female superheroes and wish there were more of them.  I'm glad they made a woman the Luke of this story and think Rey has a lot of potential.  As a character she's a solid lead to build this new trilogy around.

 

What's being discussed isn't really even the character herself for the most part, that's why I reject the Mary Sue portion of the criticism.  The character isn't failing, she's being failed by the story structure.



#41
Poe Dameron

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Anakin and Rey mirror each other almost every way except age.



...

What.

 

Definitely.  Rey is a combination of Luke Skywalker and Jake Lloyd's Anakin Skywalker.  Her journey is closer to Luke, but her character and abilities are closer to young Anakin.  Parallels along those lines can be found in her native ability with machines and her having difficulty letting go of her parents.  Also, her first shot flying the Millennium Falcon is vaguely reminiscent of Anakin fighting in the starfighter in the Battle of Naboo.

 

Kylo Ren is based off of Hayden Christensen's Anakin Skywalker.



#42
Dark Wader

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For all the claims its a rehash of ANH, Luke and Rey were in different circumstances. Luke was never held captive or had to duel in the first film. Whose to say he wouldn't of performed as well in the same situation? They establish him as a great pilot - same as Anakin and Rey - and he is able to pull off the destruction of the Death Star with the force.

Then when he finally does enter into a duel, it's with Darth Vader. With minimal training. Vader may be holding back but Luke isn't useless either. Kylo isn't as confident or as powerful as Vader and he was injured, so it's not a leap Rey could defeat him.

As pointed out, Anakin at age 8 was winning pod races, destroying federation ships and building droids. When he is the same age as Luke and Rey in Episode 2 he is already significantly more powerful than either of them, after years of training.

So honestly how quickly she is able to display and use the Force seems pretty consistent with what's been established in the previous films.
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#43
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One line would have explained everything, but the only two people who could deliver that line were Luke or Kylo. Kylo has no incentive to tell her anything, and Luke doesn't speak.

Rey was, I believe, intentionally given mysterious powers. The fact that even those who disagree are offering a wide variety of explanations proves that it is a mystery.

Although I'm going with the "ShadowDog wants to bone Buffy" theory. The theory basically says ShadowDog wants to bone Buffy, so stuff makes sense. It explains almost everything in the universe.

#44
Poe Dameron

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A bit more from Max Landis on Screen Junkies.

 

 

I've got to at least say that it's a relief that he and other people are noticing the same flaws I did.  Almost word for word in some cases.  Like they mentioned, I figured that that any dissenting opinion on this one would be steamrolled and I'd be the famous "that guy" for not being totally on board.



#45
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Although I'm going with the "ShadowDog wants to bone Buffy" theory. The theory basically says ShadowDog wants to bone Buffy, so stuff makes sense. It explains almost everything in the universe.


LOL Not my flavor. She's got a man voice. I just think she's an awesome character.

#46
The Choc

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I had never heard of Max Landis or Mary Sue until reading this thread. So I don't really care what he thinks.

 

Also

 

"This movie is too much like Star Wars, its the same damn thing. However I wish Rey's journey in the movie was more like Luke's was in the movie that I'm complaining The Force Awakens is already too much like."


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#47
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I said it in the other thread but **** it, I'll post it here too cause it's a crossover thread:

Luke started out as a farm boy living with his uncle, and has only (I assume) shot the occasional womp-rat with his T-16.

Rey starts this film on her own, on a desert planet filled with scum-bags and scrappers. She's had to look after her own neck from the get go. To me, it kind of makes sense that she picks up on the combat and force abilities a little more swiftly than Luke did (in screen time anyway). She's had to think quick, trust her instincts and act on those instincts her whole life.. Which is essentially the whole thing OB1 was trying to get Luke to do in ANH the whole time.
"Trust your feelings, Luke"
"Let GO" Luke.

Rey does nothing but trust her feelings.

That is why Rey is naturally more adept in the force in this film compared to where we see Luke for the first time.

#48
Poe Dameron

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I had never heard of Max Landis or Mary Sue until reading this thread.

 

It always surprises me how many people don't know what a Mary Sue is.


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#49
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I'm more annoyed by Rey's understanding of BB8's beeps and whirs than I am her force development.
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#50
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It always surprises me that people know, or care about, terms like "Mary Sue."





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