Driver Posted April 17, 2016 Author Share Posted April 17, 2016 The point is, you don't get to make that call. That's the problem. We all get to make the call. It's a message board. Opinions are going to be challenged. Weak/lazy opinions like boiling everything down to a character's gender and defining her on that basis seem ripe to be challenged. ...and the hypocrisy of it all is the same people saying you don't get to make that call, do so about people or subjects they are utterly unfit to understand. Again, that's the SJW mindset. I'm hardly an SJW and I'm not talking about a message board. I'm talking about the basics of the representation argument in entertainment regardless of what the work, or its quality is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DANA-kin Skywalker Posted April 17, 2016 Share Posted April 17, 2016 The only problem I had with Artoo was when the queen thanked it like it was a person, and made the real queen scrub it down (I just always found that funny, but not in a good way). All Artoo did was put a thing into the thing to make the thing work, which was what it was programmed to do should such a situation arise. Why not hold a memorial service for the other three droids that they lost that day? Why didn't Artoo get a medal at the end of ANH? It's because his whole role was fan service. Despite being episode one, and an as-of-yet unremarkable droid, to the audience it's the fourth movie and a fan favorite with a lot of heroic deeds already under it's belt (which always went uncredited). This topic is digressing. Stay on target. Asking "why can't Rey be Luke's daughter" is a strange and peculiar question to ask. I mean, of course she can be. She's the lead, and a force user. She could be the offspring of any human force user from the past-except for one because their hue doesn't match. The question is, is her character, or the story (and star wars as a whole, moving forward) better served her being a descendant of the same bloodline agsin? Someone else? Nobody remarkable at all? These are the questions we are trying to address here. I, for one, am open to most any possibility. Rey being Luke's estranged offspring makes loads of sense. Explains her mechanical ability, piloting, similar storyline paths, her quick grasp of the force, and their...look they give each other. The accent is her dead mother's. But then again...all this can be explained the exact same way if she were the illegitimate granddaughter of Anakin's we've never heard about. Some random thot he hooked up with at whenever time. Making her walk the path of a talented nobody, and realizing her destiny. Rey being a member of Obi-Wan or Palpatine explains her accent and force connection, leaving her mechanical ability to her own credit and not a hereditary gift. Her piloting is good...but not as good as Poe's. HE is the best star pilot in the galaxy right now, by far. Kenobi was a fair pilot, but nowhere near Skywalker good, so this is consistent with that. The Skywalker and Palpatine bloodline dancing with each other across eternity is a fun concept to play with. Destiny. However, the lightsaber vision needs a bit of explanation, more so if she's Palpatine's, but it isn't totally contradictory if approached from an angle. She could be anybody else...including nobodies. No hereditary gifts, making her talents 100% her own. It also makes the force more mysterious and cool, rather than hereditarily predictable. The vision complicates this, because of it's Skywalker-esque content. But it must be examined from, again, an angle-and here is that angle. The vision is the force choosing it's champion. It chose Anakin, and when he screwed that up it chose his son Luke, but their time has passed. It no longer favors the Skywalker bloodline, it favors Rey. It ties her destiny to Luke in that vision not because they are related, but because it wants to get Luke to train her...or more accuratly embrace her destiny with the force, because it looks like she doesn't need a whole lot of training from what we've seen. The lightsaber isn't a hereditary gift. Kylo Ren got those hereditary gifts and takes them for granted like the royal, spoiled brat that he is. The force does not smile upon this, and wants this to change. It chooses Rey, but but she needs a much bigger nudge because, unlike Luke before her, she isn't actively seeking out adventure. She's complacent where she is, so she isn't going to find her destiny. Rey is strong, learns fast, and does it all on her own, but she's reluctant to accept help or guidance from anybody. "QUIT TAKING MY HAND"! The force is trying to get her to embrace her Jedi future and forsake her current rough, lonely life. It made her what she is, but it's time to move on to bigger things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowDog Posted April 17, 2016 Share Posted April 17, 2016 Yeah what I love about the Palpy theory is the idea of good and evil swapping bloodlines with this generation. I love that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Choc Posted April 17, 2016 Share Posted April 17, 2016 I still love an idea I said a long time ago which is Rey was not born with The Force but rather The Force chose her at a later time because of all of her positive characteristics. Main reason I love it is it takes genetics completely and utterly out of it, which in turn just makes The Force mystical again. It's not about midichlorians and genetics. I don't think this will be the case, but I hope it is. Ofcourse this is what was just said two posts ago in the last paragraph, lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mara Jade Skywalker Posted April 17, 2016 Share Posted April 17, 2016 At one point, anyone was supposed to be able to train to use the Force. It's interesting to think about what Star Wars would be like if George had gone that route. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DANA-kin Skywalker Posted April 17, 2016 Share Posted April 17, 2016 I still love an idea I said a long time ago which is Rey was not born with The Force but rather The Force chose her at a later time because of all of her positive characteristics. Main reason I love it is it takes genetics completely and utterly out of it, which in turn just makes The Force mystical again. It's not about midichlorians and genetics. I don't think this will be the case, but I hope it is. Ofcourse this is what was just said two posts ago in the last paragraph, lol.I'm definitely more open to it now than I was back in November. Back then I was soooo convinced she HAD to be Luke's offspring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poe Dameron Posted April 17, 2016 Share Posted April 17, 2016 I've always been lukewarm to negative on the whole concept of anyone being able to use the Force. Feels much more natural that you have to be special in order to use it. Anyway, that potential is something you're born with was hinted at in A New Hope and set in stone in Return of the Jedi. No reason to go back on it now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odine Posted April 17, 2016 Share Posted April 17, 2016 At one point, anyone was supposed to be able to train to use the Force. It's interesting to think about what Star Wars would be like if George had gone that route.Thats how I always thought of it when I was a kid. Like.. anybody can learn to use the force, as it is this all encompassing, penetrating thing... its just some people are more attune to it than others, and excel more naturally than others. "The force is strong in my family". To use a bit of a crude analogy.. anyone can learn an instrument. But some people will bash their head against a wall for years learning how to put a few chords together with a melody, and some people with the same training will become virtuoso. At least.. thats how the force (and Star Wars as a whole) felt so accessible to me as a child... that these abilities, and this magic is attainable to anyone..if they have the right guidance and dedication, with a little natural affinity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacen123 Posted April 17, 2016 Share Posted April 17, 2016 I've always been lukewarm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest El Chalupacabra Posted April 18, 2016 Share Posted April 18, 2016 At one point, anyone was supposed to be able to train to use the Force. It's interesting to think about what Star Wars would be like if George had gone that route.Thats how I always thought of it when I was a kid. Like.. anybody can learn to use the force, as it is this all encompassing, penetrating thing... its just some people are more attune to it than others, and excel more naturally than others. "The force is strong in my family". To use a bit of a crude analogy.. anyone can learn an instrument. But some people will bash their head against a wall for years learning how to put a few chords together with a melody, and some people with the same training will become virtuoso. At least.. thats how the force (and Star Wars as a whole) felt so accessible to me as a child... that these abilities, and this magic is attainable to anyone..if they have the right guidance and dedication, with a little natural affinity. I also was under that impression as a kid. Mind you, this was in the 1980s, before the PT. The analogy I had always compared it to was that the force was basically magic, and the jedi were like fighter/magic users of Dungeons & Dragons. It wasn't until TPM that it seemed that one had to be born with the ability to use the force. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poe Dameron Posted April 18, 2016 Share Posted April 18, 2016 It seemed pretty clear to me in the Original Trilogy that the potential to use the Force was something you were born with. If anyone could do it, then why did Ben think that Luke was their last hope and why did Yoda disagree and think that the other sibling Leia could also take the role?Why did the Emperor think it significant that the son of Skywalker could be a particularly dangerous threat if not for inherited strength?Why did Ben comment that the Force was strong with Anakin when he first met him if it wasn't an inherent thing?Luke makes it pretty clear to Leia that as his sister, she'd have inherited the potential to use the Force as he did.As far back as A New Hope, Ben chooses Luke to train, presumably because his father was once a Jedi too.Vader even comments that the Force is with the pilot in front of him, suggesting that he senses the potential in Luke before he even sees him. Meanwhile, there's really nothing to suggest that Han or somebody could learn to wield the Force if he just tried. It's suggested that Luke is the only one capable of making this journey (until Leia is revealed). That he is special. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mara Jade Skywalker Posted April 18, 2016 Share Posted April 18, 2016 I was talking about during the development of ANH. Not what the movie actually says. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowDog Posted April 18, 2016 Share Posted April 18, 2016 Yeah I agree with Poe. I grew up believing the Force was inherited for the most part because that's what the OT strongly implied. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DANA-kin Skywalker Posted April 18, 2016 Share Posted April 18, 2016 The force is inherited. But Jedi aren't allowed to make babies. In business, we call that a "going-concern problem". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowDog Posted April 18, 2016 Share Posted April 18, 2016 Again ... Jedi can fuck and can make babies, they just can't form attachments. They're like NBA players that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Choc Posted April 18, 2016 Share Posted April 18, 2016 Maybe it means that The Force can be passed down genetically but doesn't have to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Driver Posted April 18, 2016 Author Share Posted April 18, 2016 Again ... Jedi can **** and can make babies, they just can't form attachments. They're like NBA players that way.Every dude in in the Star Wars galaxy tells his one night stands come morning "Oh, I'm jedi. I thought you knew. Gotta go..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowDog Posted April 18, 2016 Share Posted April 18, 2016 And ... like NBA players ... when Jedi get interviewed they can't remember the names of all their kids. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest El Chalupacabra Posted April 19, 2016 Share Posted April 19, 2016 It seemed pretty clear to me in the Original Trilogy that the potential to use the Force was something you were born with. If anyone could do it, then why did Ben think that Luke was their last hope and why did Yoda disagree and think that the other sibling Leia could also take the role?Why did the Emperor think it significant that the son of Skywalker could be a particularly dangerous threat if not for inherited strength?Why did Ben comment that the Force was strong with Anakin when he first met him if it wasn't an inherent thing?Luke makes it pretty clear to Leia that as his sister, she'd have inherited the potential to use the Force as he did.As far back as A New Hope, Ben chooses Luke to train, presumably because his father was once a Jedi too.Vader even comments that the Force is with the pilot in front of him, suggesting that he senses the potential in Luke before he even sees him. Meanwhile, there's really nothing to suggest that Han or somebody could learn to wield the Force if he just tried. It's suggested that Luke is the only one capable of making this journey (until Leia is revealed). That he is special.Well, in my defense, I did say I was a kid when I thought that. Events since OT support your points there now, but I am talking about what I thought back when I was a kid in the 1980s. But no where in the OT did they have a concept of a "chosen one," either. We didn't know at that time Vader had the potential to be the most powerful jedi ever (or Luke for that matter). We just knew they were strong in the force. That didn't mean they had a monopoly on it, because of their heritage. The jedi were extinct during the OT (unless you count EU), so any force user was a threat to the Emperor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poe Dameron Posted April 19, 2016 Share Posted April 19, 2016 Maybe it means that The Force can be passed down genetically but doesn't have to be. Essentially this I believe. You'd basically have two ways producing a Force baby. The first is to have the parents pass it on with whatever Punnett Square scenario you feel like building. The second is Force potential via something like a mutation. It can happen spontaneously and once it does, it can be passed down. As the Jedi don't have babies themselves, the pool of inherited Force users is likely diminishing with each generation as they rely more and more on mutations to fill their ranks because of their belief that attachment leads to the Dark Side. This is actually acknowledged in the Prequels as the Jedi are said to be at a low ebb in numbers and losing their connection to the Force. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odine Posted April 19, 2016 Share Posted April 19, 2016 It seemed pretty clear to me in the Original Trilogy that the potential to use the Force was something you were born with. If anyone could do it, then why did Ben think that Luke was their last hope and why did Yoda disagree and think that the other sibling Leia could also take the role?Why did the Emperor think it significant that the son of Skywalker could be a particularly dangerous threat if not for inherited strength?Why did Ben comment that the Force was strong with Anakin when he first met him if it wasn't an inherent thing?Luke makes it pretty clear to Leia that as his sister, she'd have inherited the potential to use the Force as he did.As far back as A New Hope, Ben chooses Luke to train, presumably because his father was once a Jedi too.Vader even comments that the Force is with the pilot in front of him, suggesting that he senses the potential in Luke before he even sees him.Meanwhile, there's really nothing to suggest that Han or somebody could learn to wield the Force if he just tried. It's suggested that Luke is the only one capable of making this journey (until Leia is revealed). That he is special.Well, in my defense, I did say I was a kid when I thought that. Events since OT support your points there now, but I am talking about what I thought back when I was a kid in the 1980s. But no where in the OT did they have a concept of a "chosen one," either. We didn't know at that time Vader had the potential to be the most powerful jedi ever (or Luke for that matter). We just knew they were strong in the force. That didn't mean they had a monopoly on it, because of their heritage. The jedi were extinct during the OT (unless you count EU), so any force user was a threat to the Emperor.Likewise, I was also a kid (of 8 or something) when I was thinking that. Clearly an ignorant child that needed correcting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest El Chalupacabra Posted April 19, 2016 Share Posted April 19, 2016 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DANA-kin Skywalker Posted April 20, 2016 Share Posted April 20, 2016 "may the force be with you". Now, why would non-Jedi go around saying that to each oher if they couldn't use the force at all? It was pretty heavily implied at the battle of Yavin that using the force was something the fighter pilots could have been capable of, to a small degree, although not fully understand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Driver Posted April 20, 2016 Author Share Posted April 20, 2016 People say "bless you" all the time without being priests. I always assumed Dodonna say "May the Force Be With You" being the Star Wars version of a person saying "peace be with you." You can be religious and speak the dogma without being a holy practitioner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DANA-kin Skywalker Posted April 20, 2016 Share Posted April 20, 2016 "Bless you" is a shortened version of "may God bless you". Everyday people aren't the ones doing the actual blessing. They don't have the authority. I've always assumed...Dodong...that guy's MTFBWY had less to do with "peace", and more to do with staying alive, shooting straight, and exploding things good. More like "good luck", except it's an actual thing that helps you do that, and not just the law of averages. Point is, to me it always felt like there was some higher power at work helping the good guys out. Some more than others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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