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The I've Seen The Force Awakens Thread (spoilers OBV)


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I'd be cool taking my eldest to see the movie but I couldn't be explaining it to my youngest.

 

It's so much in mainstream media these days. So much. Would explaining actually be necessary at this point? Honest question

Not the thread for it-- but there should be no difference. What's the difference to a kid seeing a dame sex couple kiss vs an opposite sex one?

 

The gayness doesn't mean you have to explain anything more. It's as simple as "they like each other."

 

Thinking it's an issue as a parental hang up.

 

Maybe I'm lucky living in LA-- my kid has seen interracial, same sex and hetero couples in equal amounts. He's even got a trans friend at school the same age.

 

Kids only think things are abnormal if they are given the impression something is.

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Goes back to everything coming too easy for her. Prime example of this is her out forcing Kylo Ren for the lightsaber.

Actually, I'm okay with that specific moment. I interpreted it as Anakin/Luke's lightsaber choosing her over Kylo Ren.

 

Too bad Kylo Ren didn't know the significance of that. If you think about it, Grandpa Vader's lightsaber belongs to another. As a guy who seems to be basing his entire identity in following in Vader's footsteps, that would be a pretty bitter pill to swallow.

 

It's a lightsaber. Not the Elder Wand. Like has been said before you're adding sort of personality to an object that has a tendency to get lost or destroyed.

 

Maz: "That lightsaber was Luke's. And his father's before him. And now it calls to you."

 

I think it's the Force acting through the lightsaber. If Rey was just experiencing its history, the dream sequence would have ended with the Bespin corridor. But she's shown (remembering?) much more.

 

It probably ties in to Lor San Tekka's statement at the beginning of the film, that "without the Jedi, there can be no balance to the Force."

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Zerimar, read this quote from JJ recently and was interested to see what you would think:

 

 


“It became very clear that if we were adhere to the Expanded Universe, it would have been a very tricky thing to navigate. It wasn’t even clear what is canon in the Expanded Universe. And I don’t think the vast majority of Star Wars fans have ever read a [star Wars] novel. We can’t try and please every fan of that universe first. We have to try and tell the best version of a Star Wars movie.”

 

“I thought ‘If ideas that come up feel like they overlap and feel like they work? Great. But we can’t adhere to something that is as vast [as the EU], and frankly [is] lesser known than the films.”

 

I think he makes a good point - considering how much EU material was out there, its difficult to make a new film and not have elements crossover. I mean, having the children of the original characters feature pre-predominately in the movie is probably something that is similar to the EU, but it's hardly ripping off the EU - it was a pretty obvious direction in the first place, I'd hardly say it was an original approach of the EU either.

 

But honestly a few people have said "this is very similar to the EU', and I'm interested in what this film is "taking" from the EU. It seems a completely illogical argument to me honestly since they SHOULD feel the same as they're both riding off what Lucas created.

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I'd be cool taking my eldest to see the movie but I couldn't be explaining it to my youngest.

It's so much in mainstream media these days. So much. Would explaining actually be necessary at this point? Honest question

Not the thread for it-- but there should be no difference. What's the difference to a kid seeing a dame sex couple kiss vs an opposite sex one?

 

The gayness doesn't mean you have to explain anything more. It's as simple as "they like each other."

 

Thinking it's an issue as a parental hang up.

 

Maybe I'm lucky living in LA-- my kid has seen interracial, same sex and hetero couples in equal amounts. He's even got a trans friend at school the same age.

 

Kids only think things are abnormal if they are given the impression something is.

 

Very lucky it seems. Living in Great Britain is very British!

 

However I feel we are more equipped to deal with homosexuality than the whole of America. Across the pond you have your own issues to deal with first. Gun Laws, Bigotry, Racism, Inbred Voting etc etc. This is not a slight though. If LA can deal with it then they are leading lights and the rest of the USA should take note. I applaud your parenting!!

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I don't think the lightsaber itself is magical so much as it is a symbol to Rey.

 

Luke: What's in there?

Yoda: Only what you take with you.

Eh, but the cave was the environment / catalyst for Luke's experience--it just tapped into his fears. The weapon did not create that in the way TFA has it generating visions. It would have held up to continuity if the room where the weapon was stored had some connection to the Force like the Dagobah cave.

 

Fair enough. I guess that I feel like there's wiggle room. The force is a mysterious power. Despite Lucas' best attempts to rationalize and ground it in the PT, the force is mysterious and not so easy to classify. We're complaining because we saw something new, but each consecutive film gave us new force powers or abilities.

 

 

I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one who did not care for this movie.

I found it to be fun-- but honestly, the faults people point out are for the most part valid. It was just so much more heart than the PT that I'm good with it.

HA!

I know TFA is super flawed and I am cutting it slack. It's very simple-- it feels like Star Wars and has likeable characters. Guess that's all I needed.

 

AND THE PT COULDNT MANAGE IT

 

Huh. My upcoming review will be focused on the fact that I felt it had hardly any heart (apart from Han Solo) and did not feel like Star Wars, even less than the prequels. Still, as a movie, it was obviously much better executed than the prequels were. The problem is, it just didn't feel like Star Wars to me. It's good as a movie, but not as a Star Wars movie.

 

In fact, the ironic thing is, my lest favorite film in the entire saga--The Phantom Menace--is the one film outside of the original Trilogy that has the strongest Star Wars feel to it. But as a film on its on Merritt, it's terrible.

 

As a retelling of the original Trilogy, it was pretty blatant, and not very good at that, in my opinion. Not like, say, KOTOR, which reimagined the original Trilogy in a manner that was entirely fresh and new, to the point where I did not realize that was what it was until years later. Sure, the formula is there and has proven successful in the past, but if you can't do it in an original enough manner, people will notice.

 

Agreeing with Poe here. Not agreeing with Mara. What they did is called plagiarism. It's legal plagiarism, surely, since they (Disney and Lucas Film) own all of those EU stories, but plagiarism nonetheless. Stealing things you did not create and wrapping them up as your own ideas is the definition of plagiarism.

 

I don't know that we'll ever agree on this. To me, the EU never felt like Star Wars. Star Wars was conceived and first constructed as a film. So much of it's flavor and vibe is based in visual storytelling, and broad mythic narratives that doesn't lend itself to prose. The PT felt like the EU to me-- like somebody took all the same characters and ideas, but presented them in completely straightforward and boring manner.

 

And I'm not going to be convinced otherwise. Most of those stories to me felt like they were cribbing from ANH. I don't deny that TFA hits the same beats, but it's not plagiarism when it's the same story. The fact it has some of the same characters makes it less ripping off in my mind, and more that these are just the tropes of a Star Wars movie. Would I prefer them to be more original? Totally. But I'm not going to cry foul suddenly on JUST TFA when the entire franchise has been ripping off ANH in some way or another.

 

 

Also, I'll say that I'm very much in favor of Hayden Christensen having a part in Episode VIII now. Given Kylo Ren's obsession with him, an appearance by force ghost Anakin would be very much appropriate in progressing the story.

You are now null and void in my universe.

 

I'm surprised my posts haven't gotten any replies yet. :(

Well let's be fair-- you were never going to give the movie a fair chance. You've hated it since before they even started shooting it because it isn't the EU. You bluntly said you'd never like the movie, that it doesn't count in your eyes, and literally nothing they could do outside of adapting Heir to the Empire would make you happy.

 

You're not exactly leaving room for dissenting opinions on the subject!

 

I give you shit for liking the EU-- but I think I've also been pretty fair about saying, if those books float your boat-- that's totally cool, but they don't float mine. Where I question you, is when you throw out terms like "casuals." This is my main problem with Star Wars fandom, or any fandom really-- but the hardest of hardcore fans claim ownership over the saga.

 

If it weren't for Star Wars I wouldn't have explored my imaginary worlds, been interested in filmmaking, or decided to become a screenwriter. Star Wars pretty much formed a major piece of my life and influenced my entire childhood. I'd say I'm a pretty big fan.

 

But hardcore fanboys would tell me I'm not a REAL fan if I don't like the EU or the PT. That's not fair-- Star Wars is a pop culture event, and it belongs to everyone.

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Zerimar, read this quote from JJ recently and was interested to see what you would think:

 

 


“It became very clear that if we were adhere to the Expanded Universe, it would have been a very tricky thing to navigate. It wasn’t even clear what is canon in the Expanded Universe. And I don’t think the vast majority of Star Wars fans have ever read a [star Wars] novel. We can’t try and please every fan of that universe first. We have to try and tell the best version of a Star Wars movie.”

 

“I thought ‘If ideas that come up feel like they overlap and feel like they work? Great. But we can’t adhere to something that is as vast [as the EU], and frankly [is] lesser known than the films.”

 

I think he makes a good point - considering how much EU material was out there, its difficult to make a new film and not have elements crossover. I mean, having the children of the original characters feature pre-predominately in the movie is probably something that is similar to the EU, but it's hardly ripping off the EU - it was a pretty obvious direction in the first place, I'd hardly say it was an original approach of the EU either.

 

But honestly a few people have said "this is very similar to the EU', and I'm interested in what this film is "taking" from the EU. It seems a completely illogical argument to me honestly since they SHOULD feel the same as they're both riding off what Lucas created.

 

He sounds like someone who doesn't know much about the Expanded Universe. For the most part, it is very clear what is canon and what is not. There is also the convenient coincidence that the Big Three characters are exactly as on in the novels at this point as are their actor counterparts. I have no doubt that someone with Abrams' skills could pull off a story set at the end of the timeline that is perfectly in sync with the EU yet does not require one be versed in it at all.

 

Besides that, there were other compromises that could have been made, not necessarily within the film itself but within the Expanded Universe(s). There's the possibility of an in-universe reboot a la Star Trek, where some sort of even causes a rift in the space-time continuum. The novels and comics could have jumped on this opportunity to set that point up within both universes, some time after Return of the Jedi, where there is one timeline up to a certain point, after which they branch off. They could have even used a character from the end of the first timeline to travel back in time somehow (ostensibly to prevent a certain unstoppable travesty from occurring in the present) and end up altering history, setting the stage for the events in the film. it would have been a nice way to tie the two together, thereby keeping everything canon.

 

As an absolute last resort, I would have even been halfway happy had they simply decided to decanonize only the post-Episode VI portion of the EU, wiping the slate from there but keeping everything before then one coherent timeline.

 

Disney and Lucas Film took none of these paths. They wipe everything away apart from the films and those God-awful Dave Filoni cartoons, and this is why I have no interest whatsoever in this new universe. It is a different franchise to me. I am a fan of the first.

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Well let's be fair-- you were never going to give the movie a fair chance.

 

Not true at all. In fact, let me remind of a time--it was brief, but it happened--when I was actually excited about there being a new Star Wars movie, despite it dumping the EU. I was still bummed about the idea and was going to consider it apocrypha, whether I enjoyed it or not, but I even had Facebook posts from that time attesting to how pumped I was. It was only once the plot and characters stated shaping up to be exactly like those from the EU, but with different names, that I started to get annoyed and distanced myself from it more and more.

 

Further, let me remind you that I had the exact same attitude before going to see The Clone Wars at the theater. Here I was, perfectly content with the nice timeline of media set within the era of the Clone Wars established by the EU, then all of a sudden Dave Filoni and George Lucas come along and take a wrecking ball to it. I walked into that theater with the lowest of the lowest expectations, as well as a great deal of resentment, and walked out saying, "Hey, not bad!" It actually got me excited about the cartoon series. I didn't mind the fact that I would have to rethink what I knew about the Clone Wars, and that the timeline would need restructuring with Anakin's path to Revenge of the Sith taking a more circuitous course than before.

 

Of course, all of that was dashed as Filoni started doing increasingly stupid things with the show, as well as repeating plots already covered in the comics unknowingly, and making things needlessly sloppy. But the point is, I started out with the same hostility and gave the project an honest chance, and was initially pleased. The same is true of The Force Awakens, with the exception that I was not pleased with the outcome.

 

 

You've hated it since before they even started shooting it because it isn't the EU.

 

I hated the whole idea, yes, but not necessarily the film itself. I hated the entire action taken against the EU.

 

 

You bluntly said you'd never like the movie . . .

 

I never said any such thing.

 

 

. . . that it doesn't count in your eyes . . .

 

This is true, yes. But only because I am, by default, a fan of the first universe, not the new, and would not have considered anything from the new universe canon, whether I enjoyed it or not. I never said I wasn't going to enjoy the movie, however. While it is true that the anti-EU actions it took did contribute to my not enjoying it, they were not the sole reasons. The sole reason is that it simply did not feel like Star Wars to me, as I will touch on when I do that video review.

 

 

. . . and literally nothing they could do outside of adapting Heir to the Empire would make you happy.

 

Never said anything like that. You're either confusing me with someone else or making assumptions. See my previous post above.

 

You're not exactly leaving room for dissenting opinions on the subject!

I give you **** for liking the EU-- but I think I've also been pretty fair about saying, if those books float your boat-- that's totally cool, but they don't float mine.



No, I have said that it's fine if you enjoy the new films and/or the new written materials being released in conjunction with it. Notice that I've stopped using the flippant term "FU"?

 

Where I question you, is when you throw out terms like "casuals." This is my main problem with Star Wars fandom, or any fandom really-- but the hardest of hardcore fans claim ownership over the saga.

This is a valid point, and I'm sorry for using it. However--and I've said this many times before--I still can't wrap my head around the idea of being an uber fan of something that came out a while ago and does not regularly keep itself fresh. For example, I am a huge fan of Back to the Future. I ate up the movies as a kid and totally geeked out when 10/21/2015 rolled around. It was like I was a kid again. However, I wouldn't say I'm a fanatic for it, because it released a few times in the past but did not continue to keep itself relevant with the passing of time with consistent new stories. if it had, maybe things would be different with me.

And this is something that perhaps you could help me understand. Considering that, until recently, your Star Wars experience would have been fairly limited since you are not into the EU. Without it, for most of your life you've only experienced a few movie premiers here and there, until the cartoons came out, and now you'll be getting a movie every year. Before it became such a regular thing, though, your experience was pretty limited. How can you be such a huge uber nerd for something that happened in the past, had a few new movies, and has not remained a constant? I know I've never been a fan of such things. Care to help me understand?

 

If it weren't for Star Wars I wouldn't have explored my imaginary worlds, been interested in filmmaking, or decided to become a screenwriter. Star Wars pretty much formed a major piece of my life and influenced my entire childhood. I'd say I'm a pretty big fan.

But hardcore fanboys would tell me I'm not a REAL fan if I don't like the EU or the PT. That's not fair-- Star Wars is a pop culture event, and it belongs to everyone.



I would never tell you you're not a real fan, for that or any other reason. As I said, I simply can't wrap my head around if for reasons I've stated above. Maybe you could help me understand?

And I fully agree with your last sentence.
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Star Wars were movies first and foremost. Movies have always been their priorities. Requiring a filmmaker to know the EU backwards and forwards and take it all into consideration is ridiculous.

Hey, that's the price you pay for dipping your toe into such a lore-rich universe. Or you could just rip it all down and start over from scratch, but be advised that people are going to be pissed if you do that.

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Star Wars were movies first and foremost. Movies have always been their priorities. Requiring a filmmaker to know the EU backwards and forwards and take it all into consideration is ridiculous.

Hey, that's the price you pay for dipping your toe into such a lore-rich universe. Or you could just rip it all down and start over from scratch, but be advised that people are going to be pissed if you do that.

 

Actually I think the opposite is true - as Driver said, it's a movie franchise first. You can choose to delve into the EU, but the price you pay getting into a universe that's based off the biggest movie franchise of all time is that more than likely they are going to rip stories down and start from scratch when a more profitable alternative comes up.

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The fact that Zerimar hated The Clone Wars cartoon series blows my mind. Out of all things PT, that series has to be my favorite thing to ever come out of it and felt more "Star Wars" than all three movies combined. But that's me.

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This is a valid point, and I'm sorry for using it. However--and I've said this many times before--I still can't wrap my head around the idea of being an uber fan of something that came out a while ago and does not regularly keep itself fresh. For example, I am a huge fan of Back to the Future. I ate up the movies as a kid and totally geeked out when 10/21/2015 rolled around. It was like I was a kid again. However, I wouldn't say I'm a fanatic for it, because it released a few times in the past but did not continue to keep itself relevant with the passing of time with consistent new stories. if it had, maybe things would be different with me.

 

And this is something that perhaps you could help me understand. Considering that, until recently, your Star Wars experience would have been fairly limited since you are not into the EU. Without it, for most of your life you've only experienced a few movie premiers here and there, until the cartoons came out, and now you'll be getting a movie every year. Before it became such a regular thing, though, your experience was pretty limited. How can you be such a huge uber nerd for something that happened in the past, had a few new movies, and has not remained a constant? I know I've never been a fan of such things. Care to help me understand?

I understand that feeling-- and I totally tried. I had all the RPG books, I read the Han Solo trilogy, and when Zahn's books came out I was SO AMPED for them. But it didn't feel right. It was slow, overly focused on weird details, and he started inventing things that made no sense and felt really un-Star Warsy. A creature that can block the force? That made no sense. Don't even get me started on Luuke. TO this day that makes no sense.

 

I tried a fair amount of books along the way, some were better than others, but it NEVER felt right to me.

 

I didn't have the vocabulary for describing this until years later. Star Wars is crazy important to me-- like I said. But it was never because I wanted to live in a Star Wars world and enjoy it for all time. It was because it made me realize I wanted to create worlds and tell stories that had that effect on people. I love movies more than most things. Star Wars to me, is an amazing movie experience more than it is a world to want to live in.

 

Like I have said-- Star Wars is a MOVIE first and foremost. Movies have a style of narrative that combines brevity, visuals and a fast moving plot. You don't build a book the same way you build a movie.

 

It took me a long time to realize I didn't like the EU because they were not movies, and could never be written like movies. If it isn't a movie, it's not Star Wars to me. That doesn't make me less than a fan-- it makes me a fan of Star Wars as a story, but also as how it builds a complex world with such simple pieces. Star Wars are the most complex, yet most simple movies out there.

 

Also, just to be fully honest, what I choose to read in terms of books is way more literary than what a Star Wars book can manage. I find the generally reading level of them to be really boring and simple. That's not meant to be insulting-- the books have to be that way because they can't go high lit when the movies aren't. So my taste in books and movies varies quite a bit.

 

Does that make more sense?

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Didn't they have Darth Maul survive ... somehow? That's when I knew that series wasn't for me.

 

Rebels seems cool though

Yes, but that was Season 5 I believe. Was every episode amazing? No. But there were some pretty good ones. Also, Darth Maul's story arc is actually pretty well written once you get past how ridiculous it is that he survived.

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Didn't they have Darth Maul survive ... somehow? That's when I knew that series wasn't for me.

 

Rebels seems cool though

Yes, because George wanted it. Dave Filoni said "but he's dead" and George basically replied "figure it out".

 

One of the many reasons I'm glad George is no longer involved in the franchise (gasp!). People can't say no to him.

 

The EU was what got me into Star Wars. But I can't miss it because it's still there on my Kindle and bookshelf. And frankly I am way more excited about the post-ROTJ era now than I ever was. As much as I love TFA, I'm more excited about the prospect of 30+ years worth of books and comics in front of us, knowing that there's a clear end point for the Story Group to work with.

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