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The I've Seen The Force Awakens Thread (spoilers OBV)


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How does Luke earn his power where Rey doesn't?

 

Loss of his aunt, uncle, Ben Kenobi, his friend (Biggs), his co-pilot that acts like he did in the original film (Dack), his hand, his innocence and trust in Ben ("I am your father"), being willing to sacrifice his life instead of turning to the Dark Side, training with Ben and Yoda, having to learn to trust the Force and his feelings in the climax of A New Hope, having to rely on others to save him at several points, touching the Dark Side in his final battle with Vader, making a mistake and going to Bespin to fail against Yoda's advice, again being willing to sacrifice his life instead of turning to the Dark Side.

 

Luke's progression is slow, has plenty of stumbling blocks, and heavy consequences should he fail.

 

Rey's progression is fast and effortless. Outside of losing Han, which effects her less than several other characters, it's been a pretty smooth road for her. She doesn't really need to rely on others much (she rescued herself from her one sticky situation).

Strong points. TFA seemed to be overcompensating for Rey by making her display abilities she should not have, when beings with greater Force sensitivity (Anakin & Luke) had to be trained before reaching that level. There's no justification for her going toe-to-toe with one as well trained as Ren at al. She should have been as quickly wounded / defeated as Finn.

 

If adversity is a trigger for a person to tap into the Force, what has Rey suffered? As you point out, Han was used as a mentor figure, but he was not clearly serving that purpose for Rey. Finn seemed to connect with him more than Rey. As you also point out, in ANH, Luke's aunt & uncle are murdered, the mentor he's invested all of his hope into was "killed" before his eyes, and his childhood friend was blown to nothing during the Yavin battle.

 

Luke had much to experience in that short time, and had to be pressed to access his power. Nothing "just happened" because the story was designed to overcompensate for him.

 

It almost appears JJ's crew felt the audience would go into the film underestimating Rey being sold as the "new Luke," so her ability to use the Force had to unrealistically (for on screen Force users) hit the audience over the head.

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Comparatively, Han likes Rey within a short time of meeting her. She kicks Finn's butt when they first meet (trained Stormtrooper everyone).

 

Another example of the PTB overcompensating by having her beat down someone trained--not long after birth--to be a galaxy-class soldier.

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Well, first, this is just one movie. A lot of those things Luke did in ESB and ROTJ. After he'd been trained. Rey still hasn't trained yet. Luke tapped into the Force and blew up the Death Star and nobody says that's over-powered.

 

Rey also has been living on her own for close to 15 years, so I don't understand why people say she's too good at everything. She HAS to be good at things, or she'll die. (She's also not that great at flying the Falcon, and is only good with a lightsaber because she's using it like she'd use a staff. I wouldn't be surprised if her actual lightsaber is a double-bladed one.)

Goes back to everything coming too easy for her. Prime example of this is her out forcing Kylo Ren for the lightsaber. In the ESB Luke has to really concentrate to grab his lightsaber out of the snow in the Wampa cave. Now I know that was done for dramatic affect, but its a stretch to think Rey should have outdueled Ren for the saber. Despite what most people think Rey won that fight. Even being shot Kylo Ren should have made quick work of her. Sure she can fight, but she has no skill with a lightsaber. She doesn't get the knock out shot, but she leaves him scarred. Win. Hell even Anakin gets his arm cut off in his first on screen right.

 

Though she does show her inexperience. The second she ran up those rocks, she should have turned to Ren and said "It's over Kylo. I have the high ground!" :p

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Goes back to everything coming too easy for her. Prime example of this is her out forcing Kylo Ren for the lightsaber.

 

Actually, I'm okay with that specific moment. I interpreted it as Anakin/Luke's lightsaber choosing her over Kylo Ren.

 

Too bad Kylo Ren didn't know the significance of that. If you think about it, Grandpa Vader's lightsaber belongs to another. As a guy who seems to be basing his entire identity in following in Vader's footsteps, that would be a pretty bitter pill to swallow.

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Goes back to everything coming too easy for her. Prime example of this is her out forcing Kylo Ren for the lightsaber.

Actually, I'm okay with that specific moment. I interpreted it as Anakin/Luke's lightsaber choosing her over Kylo Ren.

 

Too bad Kylo Ren didn't know the significance of that. If you think about it, Grandpa Vader's lightsaber belongs to another. As a guy who seems to be basing his entire identity in following in Vader's footsteps, that would be a pretty bitter pill to swallow.

It's a lightsaber. Not the Elder Wand. Like has been said before you're adding sort of personality to an object that has a tendency to get lost or destroyed.
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It's a lightsaber. Not the Elder Wand. Like has been said before you're adding sort of personality to an object that has a tendency to get lost or destroyed.

 

I don't think I'm adding anything. This feels pretty clearly intended to me. Items with a long history embedded within them and finding its master is an almost routine mythological devise.

 

If I believe that the tug of war for the lightsaber also served as a tug of war for the Skywalker legacy, I think it's a pretty basic interpretation.

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I'm surprised my posts haven't gotten any replies yet. :(

I'm on my phone so exciting down those quotes is a task. Though for the record, I actually liked TFA. I seem to be on a crusade against those who declared it the best thing since sliced bread and are now seemingly backtracking from their own comment. Not here. Mostly the dozens of reviews i read last Wednesday.
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It's a lightsaber. Not the Elder Wand. Like has been said before you're adding sort of personality to an object that has a tendency to get lost or destroyed.

I don't think I'm adding anything. This feels pretty clearly intended to me. Items with a long history embedded within them and finding its master is an almost routine mythological devise.

 

If I believe that the tug of war for the lightsaber also served as a tug of war for the Skywalker legacy, I think it's a pretty basic interpretation.

Not you specifically. I meant you are in a general sense.
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And this name was Ben? Ben? Like Luke's son, Ben Skywalker? Out of all the names they could have chosen, they went with Ben?

 

In fairness, it's not like they pulled "Ben" out of a hat during the New Jedi Order and it's just this most incredible coincidence that it's being used in this movie too. The biggest problem with the name isn't the reuse, it's that it's rather obvious. And not really appropriate for Han and Leia who didn't have the same connection to Obi-Wan that Luke did. In fact, Leia never met him.

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I like how everyone's big complaint about Rey was that she wasn't weaker, dumber, and less capable. Maybe she should have been well cared for her entire life and then coddled by a powerful Jedi, made fun of for her appearance, and belittled for her accomplishments like Luke?

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I'm surprised my posts haven't gotten any replies yet. :(

I'm on my phone too so same issue. But your anger over Ben is misplaced because both the EU and TFA came by that name from the same source ... OB1 Kenobi.

 

If you and I both admired Freud and we both named our sons Sigmund then someone could accuse us of ripping each other off for that name ... or acknowledge the obvious point that we both got our inspiration from the same source.

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I like how everyone's big complaint about Rey was that she wasn't weaker, dumber, and less capable. Maybe she should have been well cared for her entire life and then coddled by a powerful Jedi, made fun of for her appearance, and belittled for her accomplishments like Luke?

What is so difficult to understand? Rey was not trained, and on-screen, is not said to be as strong with the Force as Luke or Anakin. so, for her to go toe-to-toe with a well trained Ren seems like the SW PTB overcompensating. One might argue that there were political motives behind that, instead of simply continuing the ANH rip by having her develop like previously untrained (on screen) Force users.

 

Where are her lightsaber skills coming from? We cannot start assuming that will be explained in E8---it needed to be addressed or illustrated in TFA, but she just flips the switch, and mind tricks, easily calling and using the lightsaber followed.

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I'm surprised my posts haven't gotten any replies yet. :(

I'm on my phone too so same issue. But your anger over Ben is misplaced because both the EU and TFA came by that name from the same source ... OB1 Kenobi.

 

If you and I both admired Freud and we both named our sons Sigmund then someone could accuse us of ripping each other off for that name ... or acknowledge the obvious point that we both got our inspiration from the same source.

 

Then they could have done a little research so as not to reuse the same ideas, wittingly or unwittingly. The whole reason they decanonized the EU was (supposedly) so that they would have more freedom to tell original stories. The irony is that, so far, all of their stories have already been told.

 

And, as Poe said, it doesn't really sit well that Han and Leia would name their son after some guy they had little to no connection to (I noticed that myself but forgot to mention it). Bail would have made more sense, or even Anakin (even though they have a son named Anakin name in the EU as well, and would probably be a bit redundant with him turning to the dark side like his namesake).

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I like how everyone's big complaint about Rey was that she wasn't weaker, dumber, and less capable. Maybe she should have been well cared for her entire life and then coddled by a powerful Jedi, made fun of for her appearance, and belittled for her accomplishments like Luke?

That one is going to run and run and get really ugly (already has in some places), especially if people keep yelling "trope!" instead of being more specific, and I'm reluctant to go there because I know someone will accuse me of unconscious bias (or even worse, lecture me on what is too) or not scrutinizing male leads to the same extent or not being aware that is a bias/problem

 

There were a few spots in this film where I felt my suspension of disbelief was being really tested with Rey (but not at the end). It was happening in general, and with other characters too, but Rey was getting all of my attention / scrutiny because she was the character I was most interested in and the most important character in all sorts of ways; this film would have sunk if she was bad

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I'm surprised my posts haven't gotten any replies yet. :(

I'm on my phone too so same issue. But your anger over Ben is misplaced because both the EU and TFA came by that name from the same source ... OB1 Kenobi.

 

If you and I both admired Freud and we both named our sons Sigmund then someone could accuse us of ripping each other off for that name ... or acknowledge the obvious point that we both got our inspiration from the same source.

Then they could have done a little research so as not to reuse the same ideas, wittingly or unwittingly. The whole reason they decanonized the EU was (supposedly) so that they would have more freedom to tell original stories. The irony is that, so far, all of their stories have already been told.

 

And, as Poe said, it doesn't really sit well that Han and Leia would name their son after some guy they had little to no connection to (I noticed that myself but forgot to mention it). Bail would have made more sense, or even Anakin (even though they have a son named Anakin name in the EU as well, and would probably be a bit redundant with him turning to the dark side like his namesake).

If it wasn't for Ben Kenobi, Han and Leia never would have met. He was the one that approached Han to take them to Alderaan. He brought them all together.

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I like how everyone's big complaint about Rey was that she wasn't weaker, dumber, and less capable. Maybe she should have been well cared for her entire life and then coddled by a powerful Jedi, made fun of for her appearance, and belittled for her accomplishments like Luke?

What is so difficult to understand? Rey was not trained, and on-screen, is not said to be as strong with the Force as Luke or Anakin. so, for her to go toe-to-toe with a well trained Ren seems like the SW PTB overcompensating. One might argue that there were political motives behind that, instead of simply continuing the ANH rip by having her develop like previously untrained (on screen) Force users.

 

Where are her lightsaber skills coming from? We cannot start assuming that will be explained in E8---it needed to be addressed or illustrated in TFA, but she just flips the switch, and mind tricks, easily calling and using the lightsaber followed.

On screen she was shown to be more powerful. Saying so was not needed. I'll let Driver lecture on that one.

 

But now we're complaining because they didn't rip ANH enough?

 

And she's already adept at handling a melee weapon. So she was able to fend off an already weakened adversary who didn't really want to kill her, and that's supposed to be wrong and not further on-screen proof of her inherent power and skill? But it's ok that Luke goes on screen from being barely able to defend himself from a floating ball used to train 4 year olds to being able to harness the force to make a near impossible shot?

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Also, remember:

 

"So it controls our actions?"

 

"Partially, but it also obeys our commands"

 

So, in the movies it's been established that The Force can control someones actions. Pretty easy to just say The Force was controlling her actions. The Force is being more proactive with Rey than with Luke. Why? because it has to.

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I like how everyone's big complaint about Rey was that she wasn't weaker, dumber, and less capable. Maybe she should have been well cared for her entire life and then coddled by a powerful Jedi, made fun of for her appearance, and belittled for her accomplishments like Luke?

What is so difficult to understand? Rey was not trained, and on-screen, is not said to be as strong with the Force as Luke or Anakin. so, for her to go toe-to-toe with a well trained Ren seems like the SW PTB overcompensating. One might argue that there were political motives behind that, instead of simply continuing the ANH rip by having her develop like previously untrained (on screen) Force users.

 

Where are her lightsaber skills coming from? We cannot start assuming that will be explained in E8---it needed to be addressed or illustrated in TFA, but she just flips the switch, and mind tricks, easily calling and using the lightsaber followed.

On screen she was shown to be more powerful. Saying so was not needed. I'll let Driver lecture on that one.

 

But now we're complaining because they didn't rip ANH enough?

 

And she's already adept with handling a melee weapon. So she was able to fend off an already weakened adversary who didn't really want to kill her, and that's supposed to be wrong and not further on-screen proof of her inherent power and skill? But it's ok that Luke goes on screen from being barely able to defend himself from a floating ball used to train 4 year olds to being able to harness the force to make a near impossible shot?

 

Her being 'more powerful" was simply dropped on the character. At least with Luke, there were several facts presented to inform the audience that he was someone special:

 

  1. Obi-Wan revealing Luke's was the son of a Jedi, and his insistence that he train to become a Jedi Considering the magnitude of the Imperial threat (The Death Star & Vader) there's no reason to believe Luke would be trained if he was only going to be the run of the mill Jedi--particularly since Vader had killed most of the John Q. Jedi (in other words, run of the mill is no threat to him).
  2. Luke deflecting the bolts while wearing the blast shield was impressive since he was only beginning official training. That's the point--he was being trained, so his accomplishment was the result of guidance, instead of a great feat just happening because the story is hard selling the "new hero" status of Rey.
  3. During the Death Star trench run, Luke had to focus (based on instruction) in order to tap into his burgeoning ability to achieve a specific goal. It did not just happen with no build up, or cause.

That's the monumental difference between Luke and Rey; he was provided with a partial backstory / lineage and on-screen instruction--all believably supporting his steady growth in ANH. He did not come out of the gates ready to take on Vader.

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