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The I've Seen The Force Awakens Thread (spoilers OBV)


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Maybe it's just his talent. He's been practicing since he was a kid. If he can't take on Rey, then it's hard to imagine that he's got hidden levels of untapped potential if someone could just show him how.

 

Y'know, I wonder if Rey received some rudimentary training before she was dumped on Jakku. It would explain the plot hole of why she seems to have developed out of nowhere. Leia did mention that they sent Kylo off when he was young as a possible reason why he turned out the way he did.

 

Take that Yoda.

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I honestly hope that this new trilogy is NOT the story of Kylo Ren's redemption. He doesn't deserve it. Anakin was misguided and manipulated, but he (initially) thought he was doing what was best for his family. He saw turning to the dark side as a means to an end. Kylo Ren is just psychotic. His saber outbursts, and his patricide show that. Yes, he idolizes Vader, but I wonder if he knows his whole story. Having trained under Luke (but for how long?) you'd think he'd know. To throw another wrench in the works, I wouldn't be surprised if Kylo doesn't survive EpVIII...

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But later, as it became clearer he wasn't close to finishing his training, the scene totally made sense.

How far away from finishing his training could he be? The guy is supposed to be about 30.

I got the sense that he began training when he was older. Like he was a moody teen when Han and Leia decided to have Luke train him.

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If he's getting the Snokey Pokey slow-drip as lots of people have speculated, he's stunted and essentially been receiving the absolute bare minimum for quite some time. So... pretty far!

 

He's a Skywalker though. His Uncle Luke became a Jedi Master with his only training being the flight to Alderaan with Ben and a few days in the swamp with Yoda. Anakin was winning pod races that went beyond the limits of normal human reflexes as a child. And even in this movie, Rey, who may or may not be a Skywalker, surpassed him after some bar owner talked to her. Heck, Finn managed to land a lightsaber blow. And Finn couldn't beat another stormtrooper.

 

That's beyond a slow drip. Just left on his own, he should be progressing faster than that if he's got anything near the Skywalker talent. Unless Snoke is actively sabotaging him somehow and not just slow walking him, I don't see how he can be so far behind.

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I got the sense that he began training when he was older. Like he was a moody teen when Han and Leia decided to have Luke train him.

I've only seen the movie once, but didn't Leia specifically say that they sent him away at a young age?

I don't think so. Han said he was too Vadery and Leia said that's why she wanted him with Luke. Then she said she shouldn't have sent him away, which is when she lost them both (Ben and Han).

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It sounds to me like he was always a troubled kid. I am wondering if that shot of driver in an X-Wing pilot uniform was an used part of the vision/flashback.

 

He could have grown up restless and angry-- like Anakin. So Leia decided to send him to be a Jedi. Keep in that unlike the PT, taking babies and training them from birth is not a thing. Leia chose not to be trained-- it's possible she didn't want her child trained for the same reasons, but once it was clear he was going dark, they hoped that Luke could make up for things.

 

And for a time, I'm guessing it worked-- until Snoke interfered.

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He's a Skywalker though. His Uncle Luke became a Jedi Master with his only training being the flight to Alderaan with Ben and a few days in the swamp with Yoda. Anakin was winning pod races that went beyond the limits of normal human reflexes as a child.

His mother is highly Force-sensitive at best, his dad has never shown any talent, his grandmother was not a Jedi, and his great-grandmother's only Force-power was to get knocked up by midi-chlorians.

 

So why should he have god-like powers? Maybe he was seduced by the Dark Side 'cause he was a medicore talent and wanted more power faster, so he could live up to his heritage? Maybe he was only supa strong in some areas of the Force, but deficient in others. Who knows. But it's not like we need to be shocked by a Skywalker who doesn't become a Jedi Master with minimal training.

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Saying you don't like Kylo Ren because he's a petulant brat is like saying you don't like Luke because he was a whiney power-conveter obsessed teenager.

 

There are arcs planned for these characters.

Actually, I'm reserving my judgment at this time. I am interested in seeing where this is going. I'm just closing the door right now on him ever becoming a fully empowered villain like Vader. If that's their goal, they've pretty much already failed. If that's not their goal, then they may still be okay. But the series is still lacking a good villain.

 

However, let's be honest: Same character and same actor slapped into the Prequels. Are you telling me that you'd really be okay calling him "100% what we should have seen with Anakin"?

 

Or would he be getting the Hayden Christensen treatment?

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I got the sense that he began training when he was older. Like he was a moody teen when Han and Leia decided to have Luke train him.

I've only seen the movie once, but didn't Leia specifically say that they sent him away at a young age?

I don't think so. Han said he was too Vadery and Leia said that's why she wanted him with Luke. Then she said she shouldn't have sent him away, which is when she lost them both (Ben and Han).

 

Very well, I'll retract that part then.

 

 

He's a Skywalker though. His Uncle Luke became a Jedi Master with his only training being the flight to Alderaan with Ben and a few days in the swamp with Yoda. Anakin was winning pod races that went beyond the limits of normal human reflexes as a child.

His mother is highly Force-sensitive at best, his dad has never shown any talent, his grandmother was not a Jedi, and his great-grandmother's only Force-power was to get knocked up by midi-chlorians.

 

So why should he have god-like powers? Maybe he was seduced by the Dark Side 'cause he was a medicore talent and wanted more power faster, so he could live up to his heritage? Maybe he was only supa strong in some areas of the Force, but deficient in others. Who knows. But it's not like we need to be shocked by a Skywalker who doesn't become a Jedi Master with minimal training.

 

I think that's the point I was trying to make. I'm not sure that it has much to do with slow-walking his training and more to do with him just not having a talent for it. It's not obvious to me that his training has a long way to being complete. In fact, I find it hard to believe that at the age of 30 he's suddenly going to leap to the level of Luke, Anakin, Yoda, Obi-Wan, Palpatine, etc. no matter what training he receives.

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In fact, I find it hard to believe that at the age of 30 he's suddenly going to leap to the level of Luke, Anakin, Yoda, Obi-Wan, Palpatine, etc. no matter what training he receives.

I guess I just don't understand why you'd try to believe it in the first place? Given what we've seen in the film, which showed sloppiness and and a fear of inadequacy, why would somebody expect him to suddenly become that powerful with more training, unless they are laboring under some kind of "Sulky Young Darksider MUST = Anakin" ideas?

 

:confused:

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Saying you don't like Kylo Ren because he's a petulant brat is like saying you don't like Luke because he was a whiney power-conveter obsessed teenager.

 

There are arcs planned for these characters.

Actually, I'm reserving my judgment at this time. I am interested in seeing where this is going. I'm just closing the door right now on him ever becoming a fully empowered villain like Vader. If that's their goal, they've pretty much already failed. If that's not their goal, then they may still be okay. But the series is still lacking a good villain.

 

However, let's be honest: Same character and same actor slapped into the Prequels. Are you telling me that you'd really be okay calling him "100% what we should have seen with Anakin"?

 

Or would he be getting the Hayden Christensen treatment?

 

 

Great question. Hard to imagine that transformation because the actor is just half of it-- the material is just as much an issue.

 

Let's look at what they have in common: both of them are born strong in the force, both want to do good-- but are inclined to do bad because they have something missing from their lives. For Anakin it was losing his mother and the fear of losing his wife. We don't know Kylo's loss at this juncture, but I'm sure there is something. I suspect he felt abandoned by his parents. Maybe everyone expects him to live up the legend status of his parents, and at the first sign of drama they ship him off to live with his weird wizard uncle.

 

Either way, when I say the intent with Kylo is to give is what we wanted from Anakin, what I mean is-- we see a character who is so internally conflicted between being good or evil that it destroys him. He wants more power, for good reasons or bad, and the dark side, according to Yoda, is deceptive in that it seems more powerful and is enticing because power through fear and pain (both experiencing and inflicting) is exactly what the dark side provides.

 

Anakin and Kylo Ren essentially have the same back story-- people expected them to be good, they became a star pupil on the path of being a great Jedi-- but had a darkness in them that offered them a shortcut to power, and they couldn't resist it.

 

Going into the PT, we knew that Anakin was "a great man" and a "powerful Jedi" but something happened to sour that. He took the quick and easy path, the dark side consumed him, and he became evil... though Luke knew there was conflict in him.

 

So to me, here is the key to portraying that character:

 

-- you need to see that character face choices over and over, and watch the decisions be worse and worse

-- they need to be ruled by fear

-- they need to want something that seems unattainable, but they refuse to believe it

-- they turn their backs on the ones that love them

-- their folly will ultimately almost destroy them

 

That's what I wanted from Anakin. Instead I got killing sand people after his mommy died, which had no adverse on Anakin. A singular vision of Padme dying. Palpatine saying OH HEY I KNOW SITH CAN BRING PEOPLE BACK FROM THE DEAD, and an instant flip to killing Mace and a bunch of younglings.

 

The portrayal from Christensen was wooden, the dialog was pointless and terrible-- and there was no emoting anything other than scowls. There was one scene, ONE scene in all the PT where he was able to actually just act and let us see the weight-- when he was sitting and waiting for Mace to arrest Palpatine. That was great-- but that was the only moment we got.

 

Kylo Ren gave me exactly those moments I wanted.

 

Adam Driver was allowed to emote, act and reveal things via subtext and reaction.

 

The PT gave us an Anakin that said OMG I AM SO ANGRY I KILL YOU NOW I'M THE MOST POWERFUL JEDI EVAR.

 

TFA gave us a quiet and impatient man who would suddenly snap when he couldn't get what he want. We saw somebody who wanted ultimate power, and when it escaped his grasped he was frustrated and didn't know how.

 

The best difference I can see is-- if the Jedi must face the dark side and push past it, I wanted to see examples of that. The gold standard is Luke using the dark side to kick Vader's ass, but then-- against everything Ben and Yoda have said, he pulls back and tells Palpatine to suck it.

 

I wanted to see that moment in the PT with Anakin, but have him fail that test. Killing Mace was not that moment. That confrontation was 20 minutes in the making. Luke's was 3 movies worth.

 

While Kylo had this moment in his first film, it still had the gravitas given that he had a great backstory given to us, and that we all love Han Solo. When Ren starts talking about his confusion and conflict, he's talking about the light and dark-- but he knowingly chooses the dark, and killing Han means he's not looking back. I think he COULD out-Vader Vader... but not yet. We're meeting him young. This is how Anakin should have been when he first turned. If Kylo Ren makes it 30 years, he'll be on par with Vader. (But I doubt he'll stick around to episode X).

 

All things created equal, I've seen Hayden Christensen be terrible in several movies. I've seen Adam Driver be awesome in a few things.

 

I think Driver is a better actor for sure-- but he also had the advantage of a script that didn't marry him to terrible dialog, and he had the advantage of a director who knew how to get a performance out of him that went beyond "do what's on the page."

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One thing I am finding really interesting about Kylo Ren:

 

Friends who I'd describe as SW Fans, (the type of people who have seen every film in the OT more than 5 times who were salivating for TFA) universally love Kylo Ren. Basically echoing a lot of the comments we've seen in this thread about how Driver does a great job in the role and this is the "Anakin we've been waiting for."

 

Friends who I'd describe as SW Victims, (the type of people who don't dislike SW, but only went to TFA because their SW Fan-friends dragged them) universally despise Kylo Ren, saying Driver did a crap acting job, that Ren is an even worse, whinier bitch than Anakin. It's essentially, "Anakin sucked, why did they have to go double down on him?!?"

 

Some really divergent opinions! I wonder if this is just a weird coincidence or if there is something about being in to SW and the lore that makes Kylo Ren more appealing to fans as opposed to casual viewers?

I'm a Star Wars fan (since 1977) and I don't love Kylo Ren. I don't hate him either but I was quite shocked at the love for him. I'm just sort of 'meh' with him right now.

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I guess I just don't understand why you'd try to believe it in the first place? Given what we've seen in the film, which showed sloppiness and and a fear of inadequacy, why would somebody expect him to suddenly become that powerful with more training, unless they are laboring under some kind of "Sulky Young Darksider MUST = Anakin" ideas?

 

I'm not believing it in the first place. I'm being skeptical. On the last page, Kylo Ren's unfinished training was mentioned as important by you, Choc, and DANA-kin Skywalker. Hence my wondering how much further he could have to go at age 30 and how much can he be slow-walked if he's ever going to amount to anything.

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My son was a HUGE Kylo fanboy before his first viewing. Went to the theater in his Kylo Ren costume and everything. But then today, opted for his Vader shirt underneath Jedi robes...

 

I think the character's inner conflict and resulting inadequacy had an adverse effect on the 7 year old. I'm hoping it's not too bad or OH BOY IS HE GOING TO BE DISAPPOINTED BY 50% OF WHAT SANTA'S BRINGING HIM!!!

 

Btw, I think he showed quite a bit of power when it came to just using and controlling the force, but not so much when it came to hurting other people. It seemed to really REALLY piss him off that Finn was a traitor (and unwilling to get his hands dirty) but not enough to seriously hurt him for it. He obviously showed how easily he can freeze and/or move someone, so it shouldn't be much of an issue for him to hurt them that way as well...only he didn't. Perhaps his conflict with the light has a greater hold on him that he thinks; it's clearly restraining him. He demonstrated enough talent to be able to harm both Finn and Rey, but he didn't. Maybe that's more on him than on either of them.

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I'm not believing it in the first place. I'm being skeptical. On the last page, Kylo Ren's unfinished training was mentioned as important by you, Choc, and DANA-kin Skywalker. Hence my wondering how much further he could have to go at age 30 and how much can he be slow-walked if he's ever going to amount to anything.

It's important as an aspect of his relationship with Snoke; I don't think any of us expect him to become super powerful overnight under Snoke's tutelage -- it's an important feature of his character (tying into his previously mentioned sloppiness, fears, etc.), not his abilities. In the unlikely chance that Kylo Ren does become godlike, the film is going to have to come up with a very good explanation.

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2 things in defense of Finn holding his own against Kylo for a couple of minutes.

 

1. Finn may not have the stomach to murder defenseless people, but he was still trained as a stormtrooper since birth. I would think he's probably trained in some sort of GFFA martial art and hand to hand combat. Basic weapons like a staff.

2. Pretty sure Kylo was toying with him to scare/torture Rey. Once he got a blow in, he handed his ass to him pretty quickly. He wanted her scared, not angry. Chop off Finn's head and she's going to be pissed. Seriously wound him and she'll be afraid or worried. And he was obviously badly hurt from Chewie's shot. A little slow on the reflexes and Finn gets in one good hit.

 

I'll admit, I don't think he should've lasted more than a few seconds, but this isn't the Old Republic Jedi and we don't know how much training he's actually had with a lightsaber. Luke isn't exactly a martial artist, he only had basic skills against a guy who was mostly prosthetic.

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Either way, when I say the intent with Kylo is to give is what we wanted from Anakin, what I mean is-- we see a character who is so internally conflicted between being good or evil that it destroys him.

 

You speak as though Anakin never showed conflict about his decisions. He wrestled with his choice to abandon his mission on Naboo and save Shmi.

 

After slaughtering the Tusken Raiders, he slipped back and forth between between his anger and his guilt.

 

He let himself be goaded into killing Dooku. He immediately states that he shouldn't have done it, but lets himself be talked into believing it was the right thing to do.

 

The balcony scene you mentioned right before he ran to join Mace Windu.

 

The scene on Mustafar after carrying out Palpatine's instructions to murder the leaders of the Confederacy, standing alone, he is most certainly conflicted.

 

 

-- you need to see that character face choices over and over, and watch the decisions be worse and worse

I'll just repeat the above and add his giving in to anger during his first meeting with Dooku cost him and Obi-Wan their advantage (and his arm). Perhaps it could have been ramped up a bit more, but it's the same idea.

 

-- they need to be ruled by fear

Yoda pinned Anakin's fear of losing those he loves as his weakness way back in The Phantom Menace. The Jedi Code's prohibition on attachment furthers this theme in Attack of the Clones. Finally Yoda again advises Anakin that he needs to let go of this fear as late as Revenge of the Sith when Anakin comes to Yoda seeking council after his dreams of Padme dying. Anakin's weakness played out in Attack of the Clones with Shmi and Revenge of the Sith with Padme.

This was not a slapdash explanation. This was built more concretely than Luke's seduction to the Dark Side. Which honestly, never made much sense to me. And is, so far, given more definition than Kylo Ren's fall.

 

-- they need to want something that seems unattainable, but they refuse to believe it

Palpatine dangles the bait of saving Padme through the Dark Side. Yoda advises him that he needs to learn to let go.

 

-- they turn their backs on the ones that love them

Force chokes Padme. Tries to kill Obi-Wan.

 

-- their folly will ultimately almost destroy them

Lucas couldn't have missed this step even if he'd tried. Vader ends up in a suit believing that he killed Padme and his child.

 

While Kylo had this moment in his first film, it still had the gravitas given that he had a great backstory given to us, and that we all love Han Solo.

I think you're taking it on faith that there's a great backstory there. We know next to nothing about how he got there. And given Abrams' track record, I don't take it on faith that there even is a plan.

All we know at the moment is that he wants to be like his grandpa and he's frustrated that he can't do it. As far as it goes, that ranks significantly below wanting to save your wife as a reason to become a mass murderer.

 

Adam Driver was allowed to emote, act and reveal things via subtext and reaction.

You speak of nuanced acting and emoting, but he had a mask on for all but a few minutes in the movie, including one of the two scenes where he's shown in conflict with himself. Yeah, his scene with Han was very good on both their parts, and his little bit with Rey as well. But that's it for nuanced acting. The rest was pantomime and voice acting. Granted voice acting is its own talent, but I don't think that's what you were referring to.

In the end, a lot of the things that you say were missing from the Prequels are right there. A lot of what you say is in Kylo Ren's performance, I really don't see. It may show up in the future, but right now I think he's a lot less defined than Anakin. We know he's conflicted, as was Anakin, and that's just about it. And surprisingly, he throws even bigger temper tantrums than his grandfather ever considered.

We'll see how the character progresses.

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OH BOY IS HE GOING TO BE DISAPPOINTED BY 50% OF WHAT SANTA'S BRINGING HIM!!!

 

Man, I hope he's at least gracious in disappointment.

 

 

1. Finn may not have the stomach to murder defenseless people, but he was still trained as a stormtrooper since birth. I would think he's probably trained in some sort of GFFA martial art and hand to hand combat. Basic weapons like a staff.

 

Actually, that's high among my complaints about Finn. His battle bearing is rather poor. There's very little about this character that makes me think that he grew up being trained and indoctrinated as a ruthless killer like all his buddies appear to be.

 

 

Btw, I think he showed quite a bit of power when it came to just using and controlling the force, but not so much when it came to hurting other people.

 

Interesting thought. However, he did force Poe to give up his information, which was implied to be violent. He gave the order to slaughter the village. He strangled the guy who mentioned Rey the first time. So for the first half hour of the movie, he was perfectly willing to hurt others.

 

Maybe another case of a deliberate attempt to de-escalate the villain.

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I don't think he was violent with Poe. I think he just plucked the info out of his mind. Like he tried to with Rey. All the violence was performed before he got there.

 

Giving an order to slaughter isn't the same as getting your hands dirty. Which is why I think he was upset with Finn's lack of action; he wanted others to do the dirty work for him and Finn refused.

 

He started to strangle him, but let him go. And he was already angry, so I think that might have given him the extra bit he needed to perform even that much.

 

But he didn't actually hurt anybody as much as it's implied that he could have. Except the old guy in the beginning which, again, was out of pure anger. Anger obviously drives out the light, but only momentarily since he's not consumed with it. I also think he thought killing Han would help, but I'm not sure it did as much as he was hoping. I wouldn't be surprised if his guilt over killing his father led him to even more inner conflict.

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