Star Trek and the Decline of Liberalism

[pavonis]

 

One thing about Star Trek and capitalism. In TOS and TNG it was made clear there is no money in the future. It was revised in later shows that the Federation worked on some system of no money, but other governments, especially the Ferengi, did.

 

Since they have the ability to replicate matter in ST, at least the later ones, this does away with the issue of scarcity. Economics is, by definition, about how societies manage scarce resources. They don't seem to fully explore the implications of the impact abolishing scarcity in this way would have on society, though. Especially with the ferengi, whose 'hat' is pretty much all about capitalism.

 

Time is always a scarce resource. Unless you have a time machine, I suppose....

[Pong Messiah]

time wars

 

[D-Ray Kenobi]

Good lord. That thing with Kes. How does somebody go from starring in a franchise TV show to ....that? You'd almost have to purposefully do it to yourself.

[Carrie Mathison]

Found this article to be... fascinating. Despite the wooden acting and bad effects, I find the original series to be more exciting -- both intellectually and viscerally -- than anything from The Next Generation forward

I stopped right there. After making this completely ridiculous statement, you can't possibly have anything worthwhile to say.

 

Yeah yeah, I know that TOS being "superior" is the sci-fi nerd approved opinion, but from a more objective perspective, TOS is not only inferior, but vastly inferior to TNG. I recently binge watched quite a bit of both series on Netflix over a few lazy Sundays when I had nothing better to do this summer, and the difference is way more than I remember, it's simply jaw-dropping.

 

Chalup is speaking an awful lot of wisdom in this thread. Bottom line- TOS is fondly remembered due to 50% nostalgia, and 50% people having a tendency to think the originals of things are always best. In truth, the acting is mostly bad, the writing terrible for many episodes, the so-called "intellectual" and "philosophical" elements you talk about are really only present in a few scattered episodes and given a pretty juvenile treatment at that, and the never-ending camp alternates between slightly tolerable and utterly unbearable. Not to mention the series didn't even last that long and almost all of an entire season (3) is borderline unwatchable, it's so bad.

 

I think you need to go back and watch some TNG because you've clearly forgotten how high quality some of the episodes are. Tell me there's anything even close to "The Inner Light" in TOS. Or "Tapestry." Or.. I could go on. At TNG's high point around season 5-6, the writing is just on a completely different level than TOS.

[Pong Messiah]

Bottom line- TOS is fondly remembered due to 50% nostalgia, and 50% people having a tendency to think the originals of things are always best. In truth, the acting is mostly bad, the writing terrible for many episodes, the so-called "intellectual" and "philosophical" elements you talk about are really only present in a few scattered episodes and given a pretty juvenile treatment at that, and the never-ending camp alternates between slightly tolerable and utterly unbearable. Not to mention the series didn't even last that long and almost all of an entire season (3) is borderline unwatchable, it's so bad.

I agree that the acting in TOS isn't great; before kindergarten, I learned what "wooden acting" meant from my dad as he broke down scenes from "The Menagerie" two-parter we were watching. It is also well-known that Nicholas Meyer deliberately exhausted William Shatner by reshooting scenes over and over again in order to mitigate Shatner's tendency to overact -- most famously for the "Here it comes..." line. I've never claimed the acting was high quality, though, and it does not affect my enjoyment (too much) of TOS. Kirk's Mugato shakes and Spock's meld with the Horta are just silly bad, and I still love them.

 

I also concur that there are several genuinely bad -- and not entertaining, "silly bad" -- TOS episodes, especially in season 3. Again, not something that greatly offends me. I've never watched more than a few minutes of "Spock's Brain" at a time and feel no great loss, nor do the low points diminish my enjoyment of favorite episodes, like "The Doomsday Machine" or "Shore Leave."

 

If I were going to like ST based solely on nostalgia, I'd stick to TNG, as that is the series I grew up with. And I have never been one of those people to write off stuff that isn't "early work" or "originals" for no good reason. I mean, I enjoyed BSG reruns as a kid, but loved the reboot. I just don't care for the style, colors, music, and general -- idk -- "meh" feeling I get from TNG. It's been awhile since I've watched an entire episode, though, so what the heck -- I'll give a few highly rated episodes a chance and see if I still feel the same way.

[Driver]

Good lord. That thing with Kes. How does somebody go from starring in a franchise TV show to ....that? You'd almost have to purposefully do it to yourself.

METH!!! No one listens to me!

[The Kurgan]

TOS was ahead of its time, though. Compared to what the standard fare of its day was, it was a thought provoking show. Season 3 had to contend with hefty budget cuts, if I'm not mistaken. But they did something right, or the movies and other series would not have been made. There was something very archetypal about the dynamic between Kirk, Spock and McCoy. More than anything, I think that's what sticks with people.

 

It sure the hell wasn't TNG, while the show was at its height, though. Seasons 3 to 6 of TNG was some of the absolute best television ever produced.

[Guest El Chalupacabra]

 

Found this article to be... fascinating. Despite the wooden acting and bad effects, I find the original series to be more exciting -- both intellectually and viscerally -- than anything from The Next Generation forward

I stopped right there. After making this completely ridiculous statement, you can't possibly have anything worthwhile to say.

 

Yeah yeah, I know that TOS being "superior" is the sci-fi nerd approved opinion, but from a more objective perspective, TOS is not only inferior, but vastly inferior to TNG. I recently binge watched quite a bit of both series on Netflix over a few lazy Sundays when I had nothing better to do this summer, and the difference is way more than I remember, it's simply jaw-dropping.

 

Chalup is speaking an awful lot of wisdom in this thread. Bottom line- TOS is fondly remembered due to 50% nostalgia, and 50% people having a tendency to think the originals of things are always best. In truth, the acting is mostly bad, the writing terrible for many episodes, the so-called "intellectual" and "philosophical" elements you talk about are really only present in a few scattered episodes and given a pretty juvenile treatment at that, and the never-ending camp alternates between slightly tolerable and utterly unbearable. Not to mention the series didn't even last that long and almost all of an entire season (3) is borderline unwatchable, it's so bad.

 

I think you need to go back and watch some TNG because you've clearly forgotten how high quality some of the episodes are. Tell me there's anything even close to "The Inner Light" in TOS. Or "Tapestry." Or.. I could go on. At TNG's high point around season 5-6, the writing is just on a completely different level than TOS.

 

TOS for sure, was innovative and different in its day. Probably the only one that rivals (if not tops) TOS as far as innovative TV in the same era is the Twilight Zone, in the way of allegory or social commentary. But TOS is severely hobbled because it is a show of its era. There was only so much it could get away with because that is simply how network TV was back in the mid-late 1960s. And not to mention there was the pressure of the TV execs to basically replicate the success of westerns like Gunsmoke or Bonanza, so there was a lot of pressure to make Star Trek basically a cowboy action show, set in space.

 

In the defense of TOS, despite the fact that for every great allegorical episode there is probably 4 mediocre to bad episodes, the acting is a lot more nuanced than is often given credit for, especially Nimoy, Shatner and Kelley. I mean, if judged by today's standards, TOS is pretty ridiculous, and it is largely those three actors that saved the show, and still continues to save it for future generations.

 

CM is completely right. TNG, in a good way, is everything TOS wasn't, and honestly, the actors, writing, and FX were simply at a different level....possibly because thee producers knew that it had to be both because of different TV audience sensibilities, as well as the fact if you are going to have a show follow in the footsteps of a cult show like TOS and you want it to survive, you better turn that amp on to 11, and bring writers and actors to the table that can bring their A game. Now, don't get me wrong, TNG is also a product of its time, and it definitely suffers from the 1980s touchy feely Oprah-ization many TV shows had in that era. But forget sci fi, as far as drama goes, TNG has some really great episodes. Contrary to popular perception, you don't have to wait until season 3, either. Some season 1 & 2 episodes are packed with excellent acting, largely thanks to the likes of Patrick Stewart, John Delancie, and get this, Levar Burton (you have to remember he has some good acting chops...after all he was in Roots, the miniseries that made his career), Brent Spiner, Michael Dorn and Jonathon Frakes, just to name a few and not limited to them. Sure TNG had its share of filler episodes too, but when it was good it was plain awesome.

 

I am not going to bore everyone with my list of personal favorite episodes, because it would be a pretty long list, but TNG is worth re-watching. Especially if one has gone years since seeing it last. I like to binge watch TNG (all of Star Trek for that matter) once every 12-18 months...at least my favorite episodes, and I've done that for a while now, and I STILL find something new to like about TNG, every time I do that. For example, I rewatched Hide and Q, the season1 episode, and Q's second appearance, where he tempts Riker the power of the Q. Now, I remember thinking it a dull and even boring episode when I first saw it, but 25+ years later, I see it though different eyes and Delancie's acting, as well as Stewarts, and even Frakes' is really top acting. Simply put, you just pick up on stuff when you are older, that goes over your head when you are younger.

[Pong Messiah]

Respectfully, there is really no argument here. You can cite production quality, acting, writing, etc. to try and start some sort of pissing match over superior taste or whatever, but it's not going to change anybody's mind. Calling somebody stupid or uncultured for enjoying a cheese sandwich as you rave about your Beef Wellington's peppercorn sauce doesn't necessarily lend any weight to your aesthetic judgments, but it does make you a dick.

 

Hey, I've always liked The Hobbit better than Lord of the Rings, too; I suppose that disqualifies me from having anything worthwhile to add in a fantasy discussion?

 

Ofc the above comments are directed toward CM, not Chalups or Kurgan, as they are able to express their opinions without being arrogant or insulting.

 

 

-------

Regarding quality and preference, I generally prefer rebooted Doctor Who over the original by quite a bit-- overall it has much better production, snappier writing, way better companions, etc. Aside from my opinion on the companions, the improvement is about as close to objective as you can get. But even so, there are several individual episodes from the Troughton, Pertwee, and Baker era that I adore and still enjoy watching today, and consider among my all-time favorites.

 

To a point, that's kinda how I feel about TOS vs. TNG+... I have no prob acknowledging that TNG is objectively better than TOS in several way (though I still hate several of the utterly charmless "objectively better" TNG sets), but from a preference standpoint, it just hasn't worked that last few times I've tried to watch it.

[Guest El Chalupacabra]

Pong, I think I need to clarify what I was saying. I never intended to call you stupid or uncultured (or agree with anyone who was saying that), and meant nothing but respect towards you, or anyone else for that matter. When I was saying CM was completely right, what I meant was the overall point, not how it was stated. That was my bad for not making that clear.

 

And BTW, I am a fan of both TOS and TNG, so I am not bashing TOS or people who like it over TNG. My comments are directed solely at the article in question, as I disagree with the author, and I am just stating why.

[Carrie Mathison]

Oh pong, don't get all weepy on me. I'm just trying to get a rise out of you honey.

Look, if TOS is your cup of tea, then hey, to each his own. I'm just saying, from someone who hadn't watched any Star Trek in many years and recently watched TOS and TNG with fresh eyes, the differences are way more stark than I remembered. It's not just production values and FX; that sorta thing isn't what I'm talking about. The writing is just so much better. The 'intellectual' and 'philosophical' elements you like, are just handled in a more sophisticated way in TNG.

TNG is probably best known for some of its recurring villains/stories-- Q, the borg, etc. But really, and I think many true Trekkies would probably back me up on this one, many of the series' best episodes were actually stand alone ones that dealt with some of those philosophical ideas. Go back and watch "The Inner Light." It won a freaking Hugo for a reason, it's probably some of the best sci-fi TV ever, not just Star Trek. Watch that and then tell me I'm wrong. Or "Tapestry." Really good episode, bordering on masterpiece. It's the sort of episode that didn't speak to me much when I first saw it as a kid, but when you watch it again in your 30s, the themes in that episode (aging, life's regrets and choices, etc), really spoke to me.

Those are my two personal favorites, but there are just so many good episodes when TNG was really hitting its stride around season 5-6. "Chain of Command." "Cause and Effect." "Parallels." "Clues." "Relics." "Time's Arrow." "Ship in a Bottle." "Conundrum." And so on. When TNG was at its peak, it was like almost every other episode was stellar. TOS simply doesn't have that same consistency, and even at its high points, I don't think anything comes close to the episodes I mentioned. Maybe "The City on the Edge of Forever," but that's about it. Maybe "Mirror, Mirror" too, that one was pretty good.

[Driver]

I think that everything Carrie says about TNG is true in terms of the production. The lack of camp and earnest qualities of TNG definitely made it one of the best shows on TV when it was on-- and I consider it a huge influence on me both creatively as well as just being a fan of good scifi.

 

That said, I don't know that it has aged well. It feels very much the product of its era, which was kind of the joke I was making with my list. I love me the TNG-- and if you compare apples to apples, of course it's better than the TOS because everything, special FX, writing style, network censorship practices, budget-- all of those things are better 25 years after the original.

 

BUT-- you still can't beat the TOS in terms of pop culture relevance and entrenchment. It was groundbreaking in so many ways that it will always be what the zeitgeist sees when you say STAR TREK. This is kind of like the debate I started about how no one in the real world actually likes the prequel trilogy. The later Treks are certainly known and have their friends, but the pop culture relevance and strongest impact? The TOS will always win.

[Guest El Chalupacabra]

I agree with you on TNG, CM.

 

But, in defense of TOS, there were some really great episodes, as well, and much of seasons 1&2 were pretty good, with few exceptions. It was season 3 where writing quality was really uneven.

Here are some good examples:

 

Everyone cites City on the Edge of Forever, and rightly so.

Balance of Terror is one of my favorites: classic submarine episode that almost foreshadows TWOK.

Speaking of TWOK, Space Seed was one of the best, as well.

Mirror, Mirror, was one of the best

The menagerie was actually a re-edit of the Cage, and far superior.

Patterns of Force was a great Nazi allegory and is a personal favorite of mine

Doomsday Machine, Tholian Web,Gamesters of Triskelion, and Arena are a bit cheesy, but also good episodes, too.

 

IMHO, some of the greatest TOS episodes center around Spock in some way:

Galileo Seven showcased some very good drama from Nimoy and Kelly, that shows Spock isn't a machine, after all.

Amok Time, is a classic, especially the end where Spock is almost crushed when he thinks he killed Kirk, then almost gets hysterical when he kinds he didn't.

Journey to Babel, another episode that showcases Spock's past, and his parents. Spock's dilemma of saving the ship or his father was great drama from Spock, and his parents.

Enterprise Incident, where Kirk fakes insanity, and Spock fakes betrayal, to steal a cloak device.

[Guest El Chalupacabra]

I think that everything Carrie says about TNG is true in terms of the production. The lack of camp and earnest qualities of TNG definitely made it one of the best shows on TV when it was on-- and I consider it a huge influence on me both creatively as well as just being a fan of good scifi.

 

That said, I don't know that it has aged well. It feels very much the product of its era, which was kind of the joke I was making with my list. I love me the TNG-- and if you compare apples to apples, of course it's better than the TOS because everything, special FX, writing style, network censorship practices, budget-- all of those things are better 25 years after the original.

 

 

TNG shows its age the worst in seasons 1&2. I think by Season 3, when they got into their groove and were consistently good, I think TNG largely holds up as well as DS9. Probably things that hurt TNG the most are when technology that is supposed to "wow" us, exists now in present day in some form (smart phones, 3d printers, yada yada), or worse, when technology doesn't make sense now, due to existing real life technology of today. For example, why does Data need to type like superman and scan monochome web pages with his android eyes? Wouldn't he wi-fi all of that, now?

 

 

 

 

BUT-- you still can't beat the TOS in terms of pop culture relevance and entrenchment. It was groundbreaking in so many ways that it will always be what the zeitgeist sees when you say STAR TREK. This is kind of like the debate I started about how no one in the real world actually likes the prequel trilogy. The later Treks are certainly known and have their friends, but the pop culture relevance and strongest impact? The TOS will always win.

TOS is the original, and has a 20 year head start PLUS a reboot over TNG, so yeah, I think it decidedly has the advantage as the most recognizable. But when it comes to fans, I think you can say that there still is the same split you had in the 1980s: either you have fans that love TNG on, or fans who only accept TOS. You kind of have a similar split today, with fans of the reboot Abramsverse, and fans who only accept Star Trek prior to them. The only difference is now VS 25+ years ago is I don't know ANYONE who was not a fan of Star Trek in any form, and all of a sudden became a fan of the reboot films, like you had with TNG VS TOS.

[Tex]

Uh.......move to the TV forum? Maybe create a shit TV forum to accommodate?

 

Thx

[Guest El Chalupacabra]

Well, I suppose we can even it out for you and discuss the didactic epistemes and sociopolitical relevance of Duck Dynasty or Here Comes Honey Booboo, if you like.

[Tex]

No thanks. I get enough of that at work.

[D-Ray Kenobi]

 

I don't know that it has aged well. It feels very much the product of its era, which was kind of the joke I was making with my list. I love me the TNG-- and if you compare apples to apples, of course it's better than the TOS because everything, special FX, writing style, network censorship practices, budget-- all of those things are better 25 years after the original.

 

BUT-- you still can't beat the TOS in terms of pop culture relevance and entrenchment.

I was just around 3 to 10 years old when it actually aired, and still remember my mom or dad taking me to my grandparent's house to watch some new episodes when they actually aired, and they recorded a bunch of episodes on VHS for me. I think my mom was a bit ahead of the time, and realized that it was kind of spurring an interest in science for me. I was certainly aware of the original series and it's movies because my dad was a fan, but to me, Star Trek was Next Generation. I think as a kid I considered everything else aside from TNG to just kind of be "extras" in addition to it.

 

A lot of the production design has certainly not aged well, but I think most of the storylines are pretty timeless. I certainly recognize the culture shift that TOS brought around, but to me as someone who grew up with it, TNG is still the gold standard of a perfect science fiction show.