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Is Capitalism Evil?


Pong Messiah
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What Ender said.

 

I don't think that being capitalist as a society is a bad thing, there's not a lot of other systems that could do better without serious flaws or oversight. Communism is a fun theory on paper, but turns to fascism in practice.

 

I think the problem is a political system that tries to govern a capitalist society is one that can inherently be bought.

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Yeah, I think Ender pretty much wins the thread.

 

All that crap existed in Soviet Russia too. And they would anywhere else. America's just been quintessentially "capitalist" for so long now that for more people fed up with things, the grass is starting to look greener on the other side, so to speak. Russians in the mid 1980s would have said all those things about socialism. Lots of people figure the Scandinavian social democracies are the way to go, except a lot of the people who live there, who will quickly tell you that they have a lot of problems of their own.

 

People suck. That's the real problem.

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Life is those things.

Of course life is all those things. But it is also (hopefully) a collection of things most people would consider positive, as well.

 

I suspect that the people who say "Capitalism is oppressive!" are not allowing for many -- or any -- positives in their analysis. It isn't "You can experience hate in life, but also love; life brings pain but also pleasure," it is, essentially, and elegantly: "Capitalism is nastybad poop."

 

Communism is a fun theory on paper, but turn to fascism in practice.

Some might argue (and some have argued) that we just didn't give communism a proper chance. But while the West undeniably interfered, I think the fatal flaw of communism is simple: it does not take immutable human traits into account, or worse -- denies their existence. Even with threats of imprisonment or death, black markets still spring up out of greed or need. Pol Pot destroyed relocated entire villages when, even after being educated about the magic of communism, people would stubbornly "devolve" back to bartering for goods and services. How frustrating!

 

I just don't see how you can maintain a stable classless society with free access to goods and services when human beings all have different aptitudes, activity levels, wants, needs, interests, and (perhaps most importantly?) ethics. In my view, working to recognize everybody's individual dignity and protect their legal rights is about as far as you can go before your foundation starts requiring totalitarian support beams (I'm not entirely against some authoritarianism here and there, btw).

I think the problem is a political system that tries to govern a capitalist society is one that can inherently be bought.

This needs more thought later, but generally agree with this sentiment. I am not one of those people who believes lobbying is inherently corrupt; in fact, I think it can be a valuable tool for legislator education (especially when it comes to fighting against popular but short-sighted/destructive majority tyranny), but the system can definitely be gamed, and money/media influence has always been way too powerful for my liking.

 

 

So, it looks like nobody here really thinks capitalism is evil.

Disappointing.

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Some might argue (and some have argued) that we just didn't give communism a proper chance. But while the West undeniably interfered, I think the fatal flaw of communism is simple: it does not take immutable human traits into account, or worse -- denies their existence. Even with threats of imprisonment or death, black markets still spring up out of greed or need. Pol Pot destroyed relocated entire villages when, even after being educated about the magic of communism, people would stubbornly "devolve" back to bartering for goods and services. How frustrating!

Marx believed that capitalism would carry on developing as it had in the early 19th century - that the means of production would continue to centralize into fewer and fewer hands to realize superior economics of scale. Put another way, fewer and fewer factories of increasingly large size and scope would end up doing most of the production because they were capable of producing at less cost per unit. Were this the case, communism would make a certain sense. Have the dictatorship of the proletariat run these production centers and distribute the goods to all evenly. It didn't pan out this way, of course.

 

Westerners enamored with communism are drawn to the idea of a classless society, and to the romantic notion of an underdog working class struggling against a corrupt, plutocratic empire. It does have a certain appeal, especially to youth who are uncertain of their capacity to compete in a Darwinian market type of situation. Socialism and communism are least popular with people who've actually had experience with it. My son's teacher grew up in Czechoslovakia back in the 70s and 80s. He absolutely refuses to discuss the subject. It absolutely makes him cringe.

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It does have a certain appeal, especially to youth who are uncertain of their capacity to compete in a Darwinian market type of situation.

Get what you're saying and it rings true, but would like to add that in my experience, it is often less uncertain than unwilling... some of the most competitive, type-A people I've known are self-proclaimed commies; they are just anti-corporation/9-5 job/traditional lifestyle/Christianity/etc...

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Capitalism is none of those things, with the possible exception of "sustainable". It's a general philosophy on economics, with communism being it's polar opposite. Both make hard sacrifices in different areas, and neither are perfect. Perfection is impossible, only balance, but even that is constantly being debated. Does the sacrifice come from the individual, or the community? For every argument in favor of one there is a counter-argument for the other, so for those who believe capitalism is inherently evil or racist or whatever...it's just dumb. It's like calling a dollar bill racist or evil. It does not compute.

 

Capitalism/communism both are a means to an ends anyways. There is a fixed amount of wealth in the world, and the purpose of both are to manage it.

 

I don't remember the exact quote or who said it, but I read this once (obviously paraphrasing): "capitalism is merely the road taken to get to communism". Pretty bold statement, but it has merit. Look at our own history from the industrial revolution onward. We've pretty much gone from a pure capitalistic society, to a welfare-capitalistic society. Capitalism with a safety net, and the net is getting bigger with every corporate regulation, labor law, bailout, healthcare reform, etc., we're moving in a certain direction. Is that good? Depends. Compare our economy to that of China's. Their future is looking pretty healthy right now. Considering their population and growth rate, they are, in a way, communist by necessity. They are using their tools to their advantage perfectly. They figured themselves out a long time ago, when the USSR introduced them to communism in the first place in attempt to get them to join. China knew right away what was going to work for them, and what wasn't. They knew what was wasteful, and what wasn't.

 

In a few months from now there's a summit at the UN involving the global economy, and from what I've heard the US dollar is going to suffer. I've heard the term "a controlled collapse" due to our national debt. It should be...interesting. I obviously don't think capitalism is evil, but I do think sometimes it lends itself to live in it's own little bubble.

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Guest El Chalupacabra

I can't count the number of people I have heard in recent years shouting about how capitalism is inherently:

  • oppressive
  • exploitative
  • racist
  • sexist
  • imperialist
  • unsustainable
  • unfair
  • violent
  • mean-spirited
  • etc...

Do you feel this way? And if so, why, and what would you replace the system with?

When you live in a country such as the US or a developed Western nation, it's hard to say it's any of those things because people in those countries are on the benefiting side of capitalism. We as a society (if you are middle or upper class that is) rarely see the darker effects of capitalism (or choose to ignore or rationalize it when we do see it within or outside our own country), because we have made strides in labor laws, 40 hour work weeks and overtime, vacation time, sick time, more or less equal pay for women and minorities, the concept of a minimum wage, health and other employer-offered benefits,and other positive effects unions had. All of these advancements came about in large part from unions, and/or people adopting, at least in part, Marxist or socialist ideals.

 

But each of these advances cost money, which is why many businesses move their production overseas, where the laws have not caught up with the times. As a result, those workers overseas are, in many cases, working in the similar conditions that workers in developed Western countries had to endure generations before.

 

So yes, I would say capitalism IS exploitative in those cases. The "WHO" that gets exploited does change over time, however. Today, it might be the Chinese worker who puts in 16+ hour days for pennies on the dollar an hour compared to a US worker, tomorrow it might be a worker from the Kongo, when producing products in China costs too much because their labor laws catch up with the West.

 

As to your second question, Pong, what to replace capitalism with, I say there is no replacement, or at least viable one. I think the best way to approach this issue is something more like "capitalism with a conscience" and ethics. Marxism and socialism do have a place, in that they act as a counter argument to those who sing the praises of absolute capitalism, but I would not want to live in a communist nation, either. The truth, for me at least, is that when tempered with ethics and governmental oversight to ensure exploitation doesn't occur, capitalism as a whole, is far more beneficial, than the problems it creates.

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When you live in a country such as the US or a developed Western nation, it's hard to say it's any of those things because people in those countries are on the benefiting side of capitalism.

When why am I always hearing about the evils of capitalism from well-fed Westerners of upper-middle class or wealthier parents?

 

Survivor's guilt?

 

:confused:

 

we have made strides in labor laws, 40 hour work weeks and overtime, vacation time, sick time, more or less equal pay for women and minorities, the concept of a minimum wage, health and other employer-offered benefits,and other positive effects unions had. All of these advancements came about in large part from unions, and/or people adopting, at least in part, Marxist or socialist ideals.

 

Yeah, I <3 markets and private property and trade and all that stuff, but people who talk about capitalism "self-correcting" if we could just get rid of all these "Marxist regulations," as if consumers would just wake up one morning, burning with the desire to research how their local Walmart's business practices affect its employees, the environment and social landscape, then adjust their purchases accordingly are absurdly optimistic.

 

So while I'm firmly on the "capitalism is generally a force for good" side of the debate, some cross-pollination is definitely a good thing.

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Guest El Chalupacabra

 

When why am I always hearing about the evils of capitalism from well-fed Westerners of upper-middle class or wealthier parents?

 

Survivor's guilt?

I don't know. I might chalk it up to college kids who only know what they studied in class without the context of life experience, but if they are older than that, then maybe they are leftist ideologues?

 

 

So while I'm firmly on the "capitalism is generally a force for good" side of the debate, some cross-pollination is definitely a good thing.

Describes me, as well.

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When why am I always hearing about the evils of capitalism from well-fed Westerners of upper-middle class or wealthier parents?

 

Survivor's guilt?

The same types of people are the ones who are always on about white male privilege too. Just as the poor in the ghettos and barrios are seldom social justice warriors, so too is it uncommon for blue collar workers, even unionized ones, to be anti capitalist. I think Pong's on to something here. Here we have privileged people who are adherants to a value system that frowns on privilege. That would explain much.

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When why am I always hearing about the evils of capitalism from well-fed Westerners of upper-middle class or wealthier parents?

 

Survivor's guilt?

The same types of people are the ones who are always on about white male privilege too. Just as the poor in the ghettos and barrios are seldom social justice warriors, so too is it uncommon for blue collar workers, even unionized ones, to be anti capitalist. I think Pong's on to something here. Here we have privileged people who are adherants to a value system that frowns on privilege. That would explain much.

 

Blue collar, and poor people don't have the time for the luxury to sit around bemoaning capitalism and it's evils. It requires a fair amount of idle hands which is another thing of middle-upper class. I'd say a lot of Blue collar workers are too busy grafting to give these thoughts much time. But they still head down to the pub after and have a cathartic moan about the government or the state of things these days. Which I guess is sort of on topic. They still recognise that to be on the lower rungs of the capitalist society (even in the privileged western side) is a shitty place to be.

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They still recognise that to be on the lower rungs of the capitalist society (even in the privileged western side) is a ****ty place to be.

Yeah. And if the average joe in the "privileged western" side of the capitalist world bemoans his lot, it makes me wonder what the conversation's like in the dormitories where the Foxconn workers sleep. When they do. I wonder if they wish they had a communist government.

 

Wait a minute ...

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Guest El Chalupacabra

 

They still recognise that to be on the lower rungs of the capitalist society (even in the privileged western side) is a ****ty place to be.

Yeah. And if the average joe in the "privileged western" side of the capitalist world bemoans his lot, it makes me wonder what the conversation's like in the dormitories where the Foxconn workers sleep. When they do. I wonder if they wish they had a communist government.

 

Wait a minute ...

 

I see what youa re saying there, except China really isn't, and arguabley never was, a communist nation, though. I think there is a good arguement to be made that today, they can qualify as a more pure form of capitalism, at least compared to the US. At the very least, something that resembles a Mussolini-style fascism.

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Guest El Chalupacabra

Jesus would not have been a capitalist.

 

It's funny how it came down to capitalism/Christianity vs. socialism/atheism. You would think it would be flipped. Jesus would have probably been a socialist.

Well, everyone wants to claim to be on the side of God. How do you argue with that? Calvinists are where the modern conservatives get the idea of hard work being pinnacle of holiness, and socialists love to cite Jesus laying a beat down on money changers in the Jerusalem Temple and saying things like the rich have as much chance making it to Heaven as a camel does walking through the eye of a needle. Yet conservatives conveniently forget Jesus had a hatred of wealth, and liberals conveniently love to forget Marx had a hatred of religion, and the Church in particular, and called it opiate for the masses.

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