Game of Thrones Season 6

[ShadowDog]

Man that's a LOT of shit happening in one year. LOL But it makes sense.

 

One clue, didn't they say in the pilot that it takes a month to travel from King's Landing to Winterfell? That was a full King's traveling party but still.

[Cerina]

http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Timeline

 

According to these people who have too much time on their hands, it's been like 5 years.

[Odine]

Yeah pretty good episode. Not a lot happened in typical GOT style, but to complain about that at this stage is a bit like being mad at your dog for barking sometimes and licking his genitals. Its just what dogs do, and this is what GOT does. Lots of talking and setup, and not much else. But it was still a very entertaining watch. Not a lot of surprises, bar Arya getting her sight back. I was hoping she was gonna be a kind of Blind Fury or Ziatoishi type now... but whatever.

 

So I suppose the Wildlings will pledge some sort of allegiance to Jon Snow now? I hope this show isn't gonna start getting predictable now that its left to its own devices..

[The Choc]

I actually feel terrible for Ollie. Just a tragic story. Look at things from his perspective:

 

Spend your whole life living in the far North in constant fear of Wildling raids. The Wildlings finally do raid you, kill your whole family and village. You survive. You hate the Wildlings, justifiably. You join the Nights Watch, who fight the Wildings. Then Jon Snow comes along and not only decides to stop fighting the Wildlings, he allows them through the Wall to settle on the same land your village was on essentially. Not only does he allow Wildlings through the Wall, some of them are the same Wildlings who attacked your village.

 

How would you, or anyone else, react to this?

[Pong Messiah]

I actually feel terrible for Ollie. Just a tragic story. Look at things from his perspective:

 

Spend your whole life living in the far North in constant fear of Wildling raids. The Wildlings finally do raid you, kill your whole family and village. You survive. You hate the Wildlings, justifiably. You join the Nights Watch, who fight the Wildings. Then Jon Snow comes along and not only decides to stop fighting the Wildlings, he allows them through the Wall to settle on the same land your village was on essentially. Not only does he allow Wildlings through the Wall, some of them are the same Wildlings who attacked your village.

 

How would you, or anyone else, react to this?

Agreed. What a sad, short life. Very well played all around, IMO.

 

Thorne is even kind of tragic in an "embittered man who's found himself on the wrong side his entire life" -- is loyal to the Targaryens: take the black. Loyal (if opportunistic) to his Night Watch's oath: gets hanged.

[The Choc]

Also I think that Rickon is brought back to Winterfell as part of a Northern conspiracy to put a male Stark back in charge of the North. I don't think that was Shaggydog's head.

[Stevil]

As an aside... Could we see Rickon Stark next week??

[Pong Messiah]

oh snap

[The Choc]

It's the real reason Umbar wouldn't kneel to Ramsay.

[Darth Krawlie]

I like that theory. The Manderlys were probably never going to make it into the show as it is, so using the Umbers works very well.

[ShadowDog]

Saw an artice make the point that the Starks keep taking L's because they play by, and trust, the rules.

 

Ned tried to play politics by the rules and it cost him his life.

 

Robb trusted the rules of being a guest and it cost him his life.

 

Jon died for both reasons. He played by the rules of the Nights Watch instead of taking Stannis' offer to become King Of The North. And he trusted the rules of the brotherhood to protect him.

 

Now that Jon is back he's hopefully done playing by the rules.

[ShadowDog]

Also there is a fan theory that now that we know Bran can interact with the past, maybe HE is what drove the Mad King insane. He often spoke of hearing whispers.

[Dark Wader]

Wouldn't the whispers have told the Mad King what to do though? I can't imagine Bran helping motivate him to burn his Grandfather for example, which that theory kinda suggested.

[ShadowDog]

The theory is that you can hear the whispers but not really understand them. So the more Bran tries to make himself understood the worse things get.

[Dark Wader]

Kinda like Lost? Makes sense.

[ShadowDog]

It's a theory. Personally I think it's a bridge too far and I doubt the show goes there, but it's one of the more interesting theories

[The Choc]

Saw an artice make the point that the Starks keep taking L's because they play by, and trust, the rules.

 

Ned tried to play politics by the rules and it cost him his life.

 

Robb trusted the rules of being a guest and it cost him his life.

 

Jon died for both reasons. He played by the rules of the Nights Watch instead of taking Stannis' offer to become King Of The North. And he trusted the rules of the brotherhood to protect him.

 

Now that Jon is back he's hopefully done playing by the rules.

 

There is some truth to this, at least with Ned, who was a prisoner of old rules and conventions. However we need to remember that Robb and Jon both broke rules and conventions to that led to their deaths.

 

Robb is obvious, he broke a marriage contract, which ended his alliance with the Freys. Look at that situation, the Freys are not from the North, they are from the Riverlands and thus under no obligation to the Starks. Robb rolls up with his army and the two make a deal, Frey allows Robb to cross the bridge and also gives him alot of men. Robb agrees to marry one of his daughters. That's their agreement. Once Robb marries someone else, their agreeSo theyment is null and void. Robb broke the agreement, not Walder Frey. So with the agreement broke Frey is then free to do whatever he wants, he is no longer under any obligation to Robb. If Robb had not broken the agreement, he would be alive.

[Odine]

Ned didn't die because he obeyed the rules. He died because he tried to be honourable. He uncovered a truth that a smarter man would've left buried, and died like a fool.

 

Having a misguided sense of honour in Westeros is what gets people killed. Pissing off people more dangerous than ones self.

 

Having said that there isn't much that won't get you killed in Westeros.

[ShadowDog]

I agree for the most part Choccie but apparently the guest rule is pretty ironclad. Accept someone in as your guest and it doesn't matter what else they've done in the past, they can do you no harm. This was a pretty big rule Frey broke.

[The Choc]

It is, without a doubt, and Im guessing Lord Walder will pay for it at some point. However I'd say breaking the marriage contract was equally bad and we know Robb has paid for it already.

[Pong Messiah]

That marriage contract breacher got off too easy if you ask me!

 

[Stevil]

I think the marriage contract thing is just politics. It is a massive slight but not irrepairable.

 

The Bread and Salt thing however is sacred to the people of Westeros and the tale of the Rat Cook as told by Bran comes to mind here.

 

I don't think the marriage contract is what got Rob killed though. It was just the excuse they needed to kill him. His defiance of the throne would have led to his demise eventually.

[The Choc]

Maybe, no way to know. I don't think Bolton and Frey would have conspired against him had he not broken the contract. Frey took his men back when Robb broke the contract, which gave them essentially no chance of winning the war. Bolton saw Robb breaking the deal as firstly the tangible factor that they no longer had Frey as an ally but also as a sign that Robb was too immature and selfish to lead the North. Ofcourse there is the self interest in Bolton becoming Warden of the North, but I think his dissatisfaction with Robb is what opened the door to it all.

 

Robb was just incredibly selfish.

[The Choc]

I was actually meaning to write a post about this earlier but never did, but this discussion lends itself to it. The post may get meandering, but I'll try my best to avoid that.

 

I think this story has alot of characters who are bound to old conventions of the society they are in, then there are characters who can see past those conventions to the real situaiton. And it's not just rules like that of Guest Right. Look at Cersei, she is bound to the idea that "hey, Im Queen you have to listen to me because I;m Queen and if you don't I'll kill you." This worked in the short term, she out played Ned Stark. But in the long run, not so much. She doesn't realize you can only rule by fear for so long. On the other hand her brother Tyrion sees past this. He realizes that a ruler needs his subjects to want to be ruled by you. He sees past the simple social order of peasant-Lord-Great Lord-King. That's the system in place, sure, but if the Great Lords are unhappy with the King, they will find a new King (Roberts Rebellion). If the Lords are unhappy with the Great Lords, they will find a new one (Bolton turning on Robb).

 

You see it in Dorne too. Ellaria is like "they killed one us, lets kill them." Doran understood that kind of thinking cannot work in the long term. He understood his responsibility was to his people more than to his dead brother.

 

We see it at the Wall where Thorne is just stuck in the old ways that the Wildlings are evil and the Nights Watch fights them. He just can't see the the big picture, can't get past that convention. Jon though understands that the real threat is the White Walkers.

 

There are other examples but I didn't want to drag out the post. You get the point.

[ShadowDog]

I don't think you're dragging this out at all. This is fascinating stuff. Feel free to elaborate more if you want. I think you're on the right track here.